House of Commons Hansard #266 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was employees.

Topics

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this debate. My colleagues who spoke before me have given a solid overview of this complex issue, the problems inherent to the pay system, and the measures the government is taking to fix them.

Let me be clear. It is completely unacceptable that public servants are not getting their pay at the appropriate time or in the correct amount. We have heard stories about the many negative consequences that have resulted from these pay problems. We fully understand the anger and frustration our hard-working public servants are feeling. The Minister of Public Services and Procurement has apologized for the extraordinary difficulties facing public servants and their families. As a former public servant herself, the minister is well aware of the valuable work done by public servants on behalf of Canadians. She has often reiterated her determination to do whatever it takes to correct this unacceptable situation. Our government has no higher priority than paying public servants the correct amount, as calculated by a reliable pay system.

Our public service is among the best in the world. As MPs, we see the work public servants do to help us do our job every day. For example, the work of MPs relies on the skills of our interpreters, who make it possible for us to communicate in the official language of our choice. They do a very good job, despite my very strong Acadian accent. These employees, like all public servants, deserve to be paid properly and on time.

I want to remind my colleagues that we are dealing with two issues, which are separate but very much related. The first is pay modernization. The old public service pay system was replaced by a new system, Phoenix, which is now used by approximately 100 departments and agencies. The second is pay consolidation, involving 46 departments and agencies, representing roughly 70% of the public service. As the Auditor General reported, 1,200 pay advisers were eliminated in those organizations and replaced with 460 pay advisers and 90 support staff at the public service pay centre in Miramichi.

This consolidation began in May 2012. Once Phoenix was launched, it meant that the centre was responsible for accessing Phoenix to initiate, change, or terminate pay for employees based on requests from these 46 departments and agencies. The over 55 organizations that retained their pay advisers have direct access to Phoenix to enter pay information for their employees into the new system.

As we know, Phoenix was fully implemented in April 2016. As the new system was rolled out, there were problems. However, as the officials from Public Services and Procurement Canada have told us, those cases were taken to be one-offs. It is also worth mentioning that in addition to these new cases, the pay centre was already dealing with a large number of cases, over 40,000, that had not been resolved prior to the launch of Phoenix.

There is no doubt that the hard-working employees at the pay centre and across the department were doing their very best to respond. I might add that I have toured the payroll centre, as it is in my riding, five or six times since it was opened. I have witnessed the hard-working people at the Miramichi centre. They are very hard-working people and take it very personally that people are not getting their paycheques on time.

They were determined to help their fellow public servants who were facing terrible situations without pay and who wanted to know when they were going to be paid. Their first priority was the employees not receiving any pay at all. These included new hires and students, or employees returning to work from extended absences. I want to recognize the efforts made across the public service to provide employees with emergency salary advances and priority payments.

The next priority was employees who were going on leave or leaving the public service. It would become abundantly clear that the calls for assistance had outstripped the department's capacity to respond.

This was a very difficult situation for the employees at the pay centre. They have worked nights and weekends to assist their colleagues. Every day they demonstrate tremendous dedication and character in very trying circumstances.

The department immediately set up a satellite unit responsible for pay in Gatineau. The department then added and staffed three other satellite pay offices in Shawinigan, Winnipeg, and Montreal to provide support. More than 250 pay advisors were recruited. It also opened a client contact centre to deal with employees' requests for assistance.

I believe it is important for us to have a good understanding of the challenge faced by Public Services and Procurement Canada, which had to recruit pay advisors in a short period of time. We felt the effects of the loss of some 700 pay experts, a situation created by the Conservative government. This loss had serious consequences, because the expertise of these pay advisors would have made a difference and surely helped resolve the problems.

I thank the public service unions that helped the department recruit staff for the pay offices. In conjunction with this collaboration, we came to an agreement that the government would dispatch IT experts to help fix the Phoenix system.

In the months that followed, priority cases were resolved with the help of additional resources, technological upgrades to Phoenix, targeted training, and other measures. The unions also asked the department to prioritize transactions related to parental and disability leave. The wait times for these types of cases was reduced.

The number of cases in the backlog also dropped. However, pay advisers had to direct their attention to other priorities. As tax time approached, employees were naturally worried about how incorrect pay would affect their T4s and tax returns. It took a lot of hard work to fix these problems, particularly overpayments. As soon as tax time was over, another major challenge arose.

As members know, our government inherited a situation where many employees did not have any collective agreements. In fact, some of the collective bargaining agreements had been expired for four years. Negotiators for the unions and the government were able to sign 21 agreements. However, this triggered the need to process retroactive payments, salary increases, and other allowances negotiated as part of these agreements. To meet this demand, more pay advisers were dedicated to working almost exclusively on these payments. This work also proved much more complicated than expected. Calculating retroactive payments going back as far as four years required data to be pulled from the government's now decommissioned pay system. With this additional work, the backlog of outstanding transactions grew.

It is also apparent that a more comprehensive approach to stabilizing the pay system was needed. The ministers' working group was established to bring a whole of government perspective to the table. The government also allocated $142 million for investment in people and technology. Another $56 million in new funding was provided in this year's supplementary estimates. In November, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement and the President of the Treasury Board announced a series of measures aimed at stabilizing the pay system.

There is no greater champion of the interests of public servants than the Minister of Public Services and Procurement. I was pleased to see the minister visit Miramichi the day after she took over this portfolio. I should also point out that the Prime Minister went with her.

Stablizing the Phoenix pay system is now the top priority for all ministers and deputy ministers.

In closing, I want to commend our hard-working public servants who have been tackling these extraordinary challenges, for which they were not responsible. They simply want to know when they will be paid.

I also want to thank the dedicated public servants at the pay centre and satellite offices, as well as all public servants across all departments and agencies.

We are aware that public servants experiencing pay problems and those trying to help them are under tremendous stress. We will support these employees, and we will not stop until—

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Order. I am sorry, but the member's time is up. The member will have an opportunity to add to his remarks during questions and comments.

The member for Beloeil—Chambly.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. It is interesting because he was talking about the pay centre that is in his riding, if I understood correctly.

Through an access to information request, we obtained the minutes of a teleconference meeting that took place in December 2015, after the Liberals took office. One of the issues raised during that meeting was the lack of resources at the pay centre, as well as the team's morale, which was already greatly affected by certain problems.

Is my colleague not aware that it was the Liberals and not the Conservatives who made this major change? There has been talk of a time bomb, but I would venture to say that the Liberals are the ones who lit the fuse.

Does my colleague not think that it is problematic that these same public servants in his riding are now suffering the consequences of a decision that was made by the government led by his party?

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising those questions.

Let me start by saying that I will always stand up in the House in support of pay centre workers in my region. They have been working seven days a week to fix the problem. Hats off to the people working back home because they are not to blame for any of this.

That said, when we rolled out the system, we had a backlog of 40,000 cases. There was no going back. People worked hard to fix the problem with what they had. We are still in the process of training people, and we are staying the course.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Madam Speaker, I have been working on this file for two years now with my colleagues from the NDP. We first broached this in January 2016. In February 2016, we brought up the issue and that is when we heard from the President of the Treasury Board that they would not go ahead with the second part of the Phoenix rollout unless they were 99% certain it was going to work. The very next month, in March, we heard from Judy Foote that this was an outstanding success.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I want to remind the member—sorry, she is not in the House any longer. I apologize.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Which is good, Madam Speaker, because she was not doing a great job with Phoenix.

We heard the government again and again deny that there was an issue. We heard in March 2016 that there were only 57 outstanding issues when we knew there were already 40,000 outstanding items in the backlog, which the government did not touch, even though, in December 2015, it was warned to do it. We heard later that it was no problem. Then we heard from the current minister, “We are working on it.” Today, when we asked her about her promise in November to provide resources to MPs and their constituency offices so they can help people with Phoenix, the minister said that people should call their supervisors.

Again and again we have heard the Liberals blow off and underestimate the issues. Why should we now believe the government that it is actually serious about fixing Phoenix?

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Madam Speaker, one does not have to be a carpenter to know that without a foundation, it is hard to build a house. We are, right now, building the foundation and also keeping the house going.

The hon. member talked about minister Foote. I was in my riding three times with minister Foote and one could not find a better, more dedicated person. She made every resource available to make sure we would fix the problem that we inherited from the previous government. To say that nothing was done over that time is a complete fabrication by a government that really—

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I want to remind members, including the parliamentary secretary who should know better, that somebody has the floor. Let us allow the member for Miramichi—Grand Lake to finish his thoughts on this.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Madam Speaker, I will conclude by saying that considering—to use the same word that was used—the bomb that we were left, I think our ministers have done a tremendous job. We are working incessantly to fix the problem. We will fix it.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to participate in today's debate on the NDP motion regarding the Phoenix pay system, or as it is known by many public civil servants, the Phoenix nightmare.

It has been two long years, and through it all, public servants have been unwavering. They have kept showing up for work, despite the fact that they have not been getting paid correctly, and they have continued to deliver outstanding service to Canadians. They deserve to be paid accurately and on time. When they are not at work, they are spending hours and hours of their time trying to fix their pay problems.

In September, I met with a constituent in my riding of Port Moody—Coquitlam who is an employee of the federal government. She returned to work on December 12, 2017, after one year of maternity leave and three months of leave without pay. She contacted my office because she was experiencing “significant anxiety and stress regarding my pay issues”.

Following are some of the highlights of her email:

I have two young children ages 1 and 3, who are in full time daycare at a cost of two thousand dollars a month. I pay for a large mortgage and strata fees on a townhouse. I returned to work at 80% capacity (4 days a week) in order to balance my duties at home, and therefore have a 20% reduction in pay, which is my choice, but necessary to care for my children. In order to return to work, I needed to purchase snow tires for my vehicle at a cost of $1,200 to ensure my children are safe in my vehicle. I also pay daily parking fees to be at work. Therefore I have considerable monthly expenses, and every dollar missing from my pay cheque causes me stress and anxiety. How can I be expected to perform my job well, and serve the needs of Canadians when I cannot be paid properly and on time?

I met with her, and as I am sure one can understand, this experience has been extremely frustrating for a busy mother trying to achieve a work-life balance. She completed the mandatory Phoenix pay centre training, which took her two hours. In the end, it resolved nothing. She called the pay centre numerous times, filed many tickets, and still there was zero resolution.

Here are some of the issues she has been having with her pay. There were erroneous union dues deducted while she was on maternity leave, totalling $180 in 2016 and 2017, and an overpayment of union dues in 2018. She was not paid for work on December 12 and December 13. Merry Christmas, indeed. There have been deductions for benefits over multiple pay periods which were incorrect and total almost $400, when they should be less than $100. On top of those issues, she is trying to buy back her pensionable service for when she was on maternity leave, but the pension centre has informed her that the pay centre miscalculated her pension buy-back amount.

As her MP, I am baffled as to why no one has met with her to review these issues and why they cannot be resolved. My office has intervened and written on her behalf, but we still have no resolution.

I have another constituent, who works at Service Canada, and was issued an incorrect T4 for 2016. She was told to use the incorrect T4 to do her taxes, which she did. As a result, she received a refund in excess of $18,000, which she knows she is not entitled to. Now it is 2018, and not only is she waiting for her 2017 T4, but she is still waiting for her correct T4 for 2016. I am sure that if it was the other way around and she owed $18,000 in taxes, her issues would be resolved by now.

What a shame. All that public servants are asking for is a payroll system that will pay them accurately and on time every time. Is it really too much to ask?

I received a letter which sets out another example:

I am a resident of Coquitlam and a federal government employee. I have been experiencing ongoing issues with my pay since last July. I have diligently followed all of the required protocols to resolve these problems with the pay center and Trusted Source to no avail and it was recommended to me that I contact my Member of Parliament. I am writing to you to seek your assistance in having my pay problems resolved and to express my frustration with the pay problems that I have experienced since Phoenix was implemented. I'm writing this also on behalf of my colleagues who are also experiencing pay issues, including not getting paid at all.

Not getting paid at all: that is unacceptable. Imagine how quickly Phoenix would be fixed if MPs and senators were not getting paid at all. This has been going on for two long years.

Public servants deserve to be paid correctly and to be paid on time. Instead, they have had to push Treasury Board to compensate workers for penalties, interest charges, and other fees incurred due to Phoenix pay problems. They have had to hire tax professionals to help them with tax problems. They have had to apply for priority payments to try to alleviate financial hardship from not being paid. They have had to take the government to court and to the labour board, all to get their paycheques. It is ridiculous, and it is as bad as it sounds.

How did we get here? This was not some random accident. The governments have known since 2011 that implementing the Phoenix pay system would be a mistake. They were told by the union representing federal public servants that it would not work. However, the previous Conservative government decided to merge the pay and benefits services of all federal departments into one centralized service, located in Miramichi, New Brunswick, anyway.

The Liberal government then hit the start button and rolled out this disastrous program. Despite repeated warnings that problems were occurring and a request from the union to slow down the rollout and transfer of new files, they just kept going full steam ahead. Requests from the union were ignored, and public service workers are paying the price.

Phoenix was supposed to cost $310 million to implement, and the Conservatives claimed it would save taxpayers $70 million a year. According to the Auditor General, it is going to take years and more than half a billion dollars to fix. That is just an estimate. In the meantime, workers and their families are suffering.

I want to finish by adding that many employees are now refusing promotions or parental leave for fear of losing their salaries completely. What kind of workforce have we created when there is this kind of issue, where there is this kind of prolific fear of advancing or looking to a promotion or going on parental leave? Sure, this is not everyone; this is a number of people. However, this is out there. I am hearing about it. I am sure every member in the House is also hearing from constituents in their ridings, public service workers who are just doing their jobs and want to get decent pay, on time, and what they deserve.

I urge all members of the House to do the right thing and vote in favour of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

It being 6:15 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, all questions necessary to dispose of the opposition motion are deemed put and a recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Wednesday, February 28, 2018, at the expiry of the time provided for oral questions.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, I suspect if you were to canvass the House, you would find unanimous consent to call it 6:30 at this time.

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Do we have unanimous consent to see the clock at 6:30 p.m.?

Opposition Motion—Phoenix Pay SystemBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed from February 15 consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—VeteransBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Pursuant to order made Thursday, February 15, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion of Mr. McColeman relating to the business of supply.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

Vote #454

Business of SupplyGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I declare the motion defeated.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Foreign AffairsAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Speaker, the government is fond of saying that Canada is back, but one has to wonder where exactly we are, because we do not see much of Canada on the international stage. In any case, Canada's name rarely comes up in good news stories.

Consider peacekeeping. During the election campaign, the Liberals promised to recommit to peacekeeping. I have a feeling that we do not have the same definition of commitment, because all I see is a total lack thereof.

In November, right when we were hosting an international conference in Vancouver, Canada's contribution dropped to 62 peacekeepers. That is the weakest commitment since peacekeeping operations were first introduced over 50 years ago.

What happened between November and December? Canada's contribution dropped further from 62 to 43 peacekeepers. Incidentally, despite all the government's rhetoric on the role of women and the need for more women in peacekeeping operations, there are only six women among those 43 peacekeepers.

However, the Liberal government had made some very specific promises. In August 2016, it promised 600 troops and 150 police officers. By November 2017, all of a sudden, it was promising only 200 troops. For that matter, we have yet to see a single one of those troops.

The government says it will provide training and equipment. There are plenty of developed countries providing training and equipment, yet also doing the hard work on the ground. In the meantime, Canada is not doing its fair share. That leads to two problems, the first of which is fundamental. By carrying out peacekeeping operations, Canada could contribute to global peace and security and help protect civilians. However, we are not doing that. We are full of talk, but no action.

The second is that our refusal to live up to our commitments harms Canada's reputation. That goes for peacekeeping as well as for other files like climate change, as Canada will not even be meeting its Paris agreement targets. In the eyes of the international community, a country that says one thing and does another is a country that cannot be trusted. I do not know if the government actually thinks that that is how it will gain the credibility it needs to win a seat on the United Nations Security Council, but I really do not think this is the right approach.

I want this government to stop talking and stop making us promises only to reconsider them and put them off.

When will Canada truly return to peacekeeping?

Foreign AffairsAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

Fredericton New Brunswick

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for being here this evening to talk about our re-engagement within the international community and specifically about the issue she first raised in the House of Commons that led to this late show, which is around nuclear disarmament.

Canada is committed to re-engaging in peacekeeping missions. She will know of our women in peacekeeping initiative, the Elsie initiative, which is receiving tremendous support from other countries around the world. Certainly, we see a role for Canada to play in increasing the number of women who play important roles in peacekeeping missions and as part of our larger women, peace and security agenda.

We know that engaging women and girls in conflict and post-conflict affected areas is tremendously important for peace building, peacekeeping, and maintaining peace over the long haul. Canada is already actively working in these areas, and will continue to reach out to other partner countries around the world as we build a coalition of support for this. This is all part of what underpins our feminist international agenda and our feminist development assistance agenda. We understand the importance of supporting women and girls in other vulnerable communities, including members of the LGBTI community. That underpins everything we do in support of human rights around the world.

Let me speak briefly about nuclear disarmament. This is the reason we are gathered here this evening.

Just two weeks ago in Munich, the Minister of Foreign Affairs met with Beatrice Fihn, the director of the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons, ICAN. ICAN won the Nobel Peace Prize for its important advocacy on spreading awareness about the true and terrible consequences of using nuclear weapons and for its work on the ban treaty. It is hard work, and the hard work of these women on this important issue must be acknowledged and commended. We do that here now and wherever we have the opportunity to do so.

We recognize the catastrophic impact that any detonation of nuclear weapons can have, and we remain firmly committed to ensuring our children inherit a world free of nuclear weapons.

Canada shares the deep frustration expressed by many regarding the slow pace of nuclear disarmament. We remain committed to advancing tangible progress to a pragmatic step-by-step approach that strengthens the international framework for nuclear disarmament. This includes the universalization of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, or NPT, the entry into force of the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, and the negotiation of the fissile material cut-off treaty, or FMCT.

While the NPT may be imperfect, it has been effective in eliminating the spread of nuclear weapons. Among the 186 non-nuclear weapon states party to the treaty, only North Korea has violated its obligation to not develop nor acquire nuclear weapons.

Most important, the priority for Canada is advancing the fissile material cut-off treaty. Ending the production of the explosive fissile material used in nuclear weapons is critical for ending proliferation and preparing the way for nuclear disarmament. This is exactly why Canada is currently chairing a UN expert preparatory group on the FMCT, which includes all five nuclear non-proliferation treaty nuclear weapons states, India, and 19 other nuclear weapons states. We are counteracting growing international divisions by uniting both nuclear and non-nuclear armed states in making genuine practical progress on nuclear disarmament.

Disarmament is a goal for Canada to see the world free of nuclear weapons, as is our re-engagement in peacekeeping initiatives around the world.

Foreign AffairsAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Madam Speaker, there seems to be some confusion because I am pretty sure that the objective was to talk about peacekeeping.

If my colleague wants to talk about re-engagement, a re-engagement that I have yet to see, and the issue of nuclear disarmament, I could remind him that 120 countries approved a convention to ban nuclear arms and that Canada disengaged from that exercise.

My colleague also talked about women in peacekeeping. Currently, only six out of Canada's 43 peacekeepers are women. He is talking about women, peace and security, but there is no money for Canada's action plan in that regard. They talk about their feminist international agenda, but they sell arms to Saudi Arabia. They talk about women in international development, but do not provide a penny more. In fact, the international development budget is decreasing. If that is re-engagement, then we have—