House of Commons Hansard #274 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was agreed.

Topics

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Madam Speaker, that is a great point. My answer is no, but I want to bring it back to what I have been talking about, if that is okay with my colleague. There is a very significant difference between when we were in government as Conservatives and the Liberal government, and I want to bring that back to agriculture and especially trade issues.

When we were in government, we went from free trade agreements with five countries to 51. When we were doing CETA, trade agreements with South Korea, and the TPP, our agriculture minister and trade minister came back to Ottawa after all those meetings and offered to have debriefs with any opposition shadow ministers or opposition members who wanted to have information on how those meetings went. To have that kind of information is critical when we go back to our constituents and make these types of decisions.

Since the Liberals have now taken government, they have not one time offered to have those debriefs when it comes to TPP, NAFTA, or finishing up with CETA. They talk about our time with Prime Minister Harper, but there is no question the Liberal government is more secretive and untransparent than any government we have had in decades.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Ajax Ontario

Liberal

Mark Holland LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Madam Speaker, in response to an invitation from Indian Prime Minister Modi, the Prime Minister of Canada concluded his first official visit to India last month. He was accompanied by six ministers in the official delegation. Fourteen members of Parliament participated in key elements of the program.

Recognizing that the relationship is underpinned by people-to-people ties, the Prime Minister incorporated a strong focus on education and youth in the program, reflecting Canada's 1.4 million Canadians of Indian heritage, and cognizant of Canada's geostrategic and commercial interests in the Indo-Pacific region.

The Prime Minister's objective was clear: to reaffirm that Canada stands with a united India. Recognizing that the relationship between Canada and India is based on a shared commitment to pluralism, diversity, and democracy, the Prime Minister visited cultural and religious sites of significance to people in Canada, India, and around the world.

During the visit, the Prime Minister met with India's Prime Minister Modi, India's President Kovind, the Minister of External Affairs, business executives and entrepreneurs, civil society advocates, academics, and thought leaders.

The Prime Minister visited the world's most populous democracy, the fastest-growing major economy in the world, and a society on the cusp of dramatic cultural, political, and economic transformation. India's economic heft is increasing. Its middle class is expanding, and its global influence grows stronger every day.

Over the past few years, Canada's relationship with India has thrived. We have expanded and deepened our traditional areas of engagement. However, Canadians expect the Prime Minister to do more, to welcome more skilled workers, to attract more students to study in Canada, to facilitate the ease of doing business with and investing in India. Canada's Prime Minister took the pulse of the change afoot in India in order to guide Canadian stakeholders through this transformation.

The relationship between Canada and India is strong and mutually beneficial. Two-way trade between Canada and India is estimated to have reached $8.34 billion in calendar year 2017. This represents an increase of 3.9% over 2016, and an increase of over 30% just in the last three years. There is an estimated 1,000 Canadian companies active in the India market, of which 400 have a physical presence in the country.

Despite these impressive figures, there is a palpable sense that Canada-India trade should be higher than it is right now, that there is enormous potential in India. The fact that our trade and investment numbers are low relative to the size of our GDP is just one example. On the same note, our negotiations on a comprehensive economic partnership agreement, known as CEPA, and a foreign investment protection and promotion agreement, known as FIPA, are important priorities for both countries.

Closing these bilateral agreements has proven to be long and arduous, and we are not quite there yet. However, Canada shares the same objective as India: to work together to create economic growth, prosperity, and good middle-class jobs and more opportunities for our citizens.

To this end, in the joint statement issued by the leaders on February 23, Canada and India agreed to intensify negotiations to finalize both CEPA and FIPA. As well, Canada and India finalized a memorandum of understanding between Global Affairs Canada's investment and innovation bureau and Invest India, which will enhance two-way investment between the two countries.

The Prime Minister welcomed the conclusion of, and progress on, co-operation agreements in areas such as civil nuclear science and technology, education, audiovisual production, information technology, intellectual property, sports, and many other areas.

The leaders agree to encourage the private sector to explore further investment opportunities, and they welcome the signing of the commercial agreement, which will create thousands of new economic opportunities and jobs for both countries.

Clearly, this was a valuable international trip to engage with an increasingly important global partner, India. This brings me to the subject of today's supply day motion.

Unfortunately, the subject the opposition has chosen to put forward in today's supply day motion calls into question the professionalism of some of our most senior public servants in the country. Canada's national security agencies are non-partisan, as well they must be. They are highly competent and highly effective. We trust them to protect and promote Canada's security. They continue to do an excellent job in serving and protecting the interests of Canadians regardless of what party might be in power. We respect our national security agencies and we respect the non-partisan public service. We respect their ability to provide non-partisan advice, including on operational issues that bear upon national security.

As has been explained to the House on many occasions, the invitation to Mr. Atwal should never have been sent. When the government became aware of the invitation, it was withdrawn. The member of Parliament who extended that invitation has apologized for doing so.

Our security and intelligence agencies are highly competent and do their jobs extremely well. Our government has been working to ensure they continue to do that work despite deep cuts that were made by the previous Conservative government. In fact, in their last four years in power, the Conservatives cut $1 billion from our national security and intelligence agencies.

By contrast, the Liberal government has been providing them with integrity funding as we undertake reviews to ensure they have the resources to match their mandates and the difficult tasks we ask them to do every day on behalf of Canadians. More than that, we are restoring the public trust and confidence in our security and intelligence agencies that eroded over the 10 years of the previous Harper government.

Last year, Parliament passed Bill C-22, which created the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. For well over a decade, experts, academics, and parliamentary committees, including ones that I was on, have called for a committee of parliamentarians that would be mandated to review the work of our security and intelligence agencies and who would have the appropriate clearance to review all classified material. That committee is now up and running. It is currently reviewing and taking a look at our national security and intelligence apparatus.

We are also enhancing and making major changes to the existing review bodies by combining all entities with a mandate to review an individual department or agency into one body. Some academics have referred to this for years as a super SIRC. This too was called for in Justice Iacobucci's report and Justice O'Connor's report. Certainly in my time as the critic for public safety when I was in opposition, it was something that we called for and something that the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security called for.

We are calling it NSIRA, the national security intelligence review agency. There are benefits of having one review body that can actually follow the evidence as it moves from one agency to another. As an example, if SIRC were currently reviewing a CSIS operation and found that at one point CSIS had turned it over to the RCMP for an investigation, SIRC would not be able to follow the trail to see what the RCMP had done with that information. In other words, the security and intelligence review of matters would be siloed and there would not be the ability to follow them from one agency to the other. This would make knowing exactly what went on or what went wrong nearly impossible.

The Civilian Review and Complaints Commission, CRCC, could review what the RCMP has done with that information in the example that I gave earlier, but it would not be able to know what CSIS did in order to obtain it. Should Bill C-59 be passed by Parliament, the new NSIRA would have a mandate to look at every department or agency within the national security and intelligence function.

In line with Canada's feminist foreign policy and feminist international assistance policy, as well as the emphasis on gender equality in the budget tabled in Parliament, the goal of women's empowerment and gender equality featured prominently during the Prime Minister's visit to India. He participated in a women's business leaders round table and launched the Canada-India accelerator program for women tech entrepreneurs.

Canada and India announced collaboration between Canada's Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and India's Department of Science and Technology to jointly promote and strengthen the participation of girls and women in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

As well, Canada's International Development Research Centre, IDRC, announced research initiatives into the most important and effective ways to empower women, prevent gender-based violence, and make digital platforms work for inclusive development in India. New investments by the IDRC in 2018 will improve the working conditions of homeworkers and improve business practices in global supply chains. Canada announced $7.9 million for 40 Grand Challenges Canada projects in India, supporting women's empowerment, sexual and reproductive health rights, water and sanitation, and mental health. Finally, Canada and India launched the Nutrition International's Asia campaign called “She'll Grow Into It”. The campaign, supported by $11.5 million of funding through the right start initiative, works to empower the world's poorest women, adolescent girls, and children.

On the last day of the visit, the Prime Minister delivered a keynote speech before 5,000 youth at the 2018 Young Changemakers Conclave annual conference. At this event, captured live on Facebook, the Prime Minister emphasized the importance of gender equality, youth engagement, and diversity, and discussed the role of technology and innovation in empowering young leaders. Canada's Prime Minister heard directly from India's young leaders on how they are making their country and their world a better place in which to live. India has the largest youth population in the world, with more than 780 million under the age of 35.

Speaking about youth, I want to turn to the topic of education. India has one of the largest higher education systems in the world. With over 30 million students enrolled in higher education every year, the demand far exceeds the supply. As a result, more than 550,000 Indian students opted to study abroad in 2017, and Canada is increasingly a destination of choice. Canadian institutions currently have over 400 arrangements with Indian institutions, and approximately 50 universities and colleges have a presence in India. In addition, the government has been proactively targeting students from abroad with the result that a record number of Indian students, an estimated 124,000, held a permit to study in Canada for six months or more in 2017. Canada now trails only the United States as a destination for Indian students going abroad for higher education.

Academic collaboration is also moving forward at an accelerated pace. In 2016, Mitacs, a Canadian not-for-profit organization, brought 184 Indian researchers to Canada with funding of over $2 million through the Mitacs Globalink program and $736,000 in support from the Government of India. Since its launch in 2013, the India-Canada Centre for Innovative Multidisciplinary Partnerships to Accelerate Community Transformation and Sustainability, known as IC-IMPACTS, has delivered 38 projects that have resulted in 16 technology deployments in Canada and India in a variety of fields. Recognizing the importance of innovation, the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Modi welcomed a call for research proposals amounting to $4 million toward cleaning polluted bodies of water and mitigating fire hazards in buildings. Key partners in this initiative are IC-IMPACTS and India's departments of biotechnology and science and technology.

During the Prime Minister's trip, a memorandum of understanding on higher education was renewed, and Canada announced it will host the 2018 meeting of the joint working group that oversees implementation of that memorandum of understanding. As well, the Prime Minister recognized the 50th anniversary of the Shastri lndo-Canadian Institute in promoting understanding between India and Canada through academic activities and exchanges, with the support of both governments to the institute.

To pursue this line further, if we continue to link youth and entrepreneurs in India and Canada and if we continue to encourage innovation and collaboration between academics, the private sector, and civil society, then government can back away and let these dynamics take over. There is nothing we wish for more than for the citizens of our two countries to drive forward this relationship and economic partnership.

A number of important security challenges face India and Canada in the Indo-Pacific region. On regional and global issues, the leaders discussed the prevailing security situation in Afghanistan, calling for an immediate cessation of violence, renunciation of links with international terrorism, and the dismantling of infrastructure of support for terrorism. The leaders reaffirmed support to the government and the people of Afghanistan to achieve an Afghan-led, Afghan-owned and Afghan-controlled national peace and reconciliation process.

The leaders called upon the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the DPRK, to abide strictly by its international obligations and commitments. They called on all states to implement rigorously the relevant UN Security Council resolutions relating to the DPRK.

The leaders deplored the current state in the Maldives, and urged the Government of Maldives to allow democratic institutions, particularly the judiciary, to function independently in a fair and transparent manner.

The two leaders discussed the humanitarian and security crisis in the Rakhine State of Myanmar and across the border in Bangladesh, and called for the voluntary, safe, and sustainable return of the people displaced, while stressing the importance of ensuring law and order, and respect for human dignity in the process. The leaders also called for the restoration of humanitarian access for relevant UN and other international organizations to facilitate the return process.

In short, Canada and India resolved to work together, bilaterally and multilaterally, to promote a stable and rules-based Indo-Pacific region that would not only benefit Canada economically vis-à-vis India, but would serve to broaden our interests in the region and move us toward greater connectivity.

To promote and sustain collaboration, Canada's national interests call for a stronger relationship with India. To this end, the prime ministers of Canada and India reinforced the architecture of our security partnership. A dialogue of national security advisers was institutionalized. Canada's national security and intelligence adviser met with his Indian counterpart in New Delhi just prior to the Prime Minister's visit, and concluded a framework agreement on countering terrorism and violent extremism. This framework agreement reaffirms the shared resolve of India and Canada to combat terrorism and violent extremism in all their forms and manifestations.

Canada and India agreed to step up bilateral collaboration under a newly-formed national security advisers' dialogue, the joint working group on counterterrorism and its experts' sub-group. Both leaders agreed to work collaboratively to address the threat posed by cross-border and state-sponsored terrorism, stop sources of terrorist financing, dismantle terrorist infrastructure, prevent the supply of arms to terrorists, and to counter violent extremism and radicalization to violence.

On broader defence and security issues, the leaders committed to develop bilateral defence co-operation by exploring possibilities in diverse fields, including cold climate training. They agreed that Canada and India would coordinate on cybersecurity and address cybercrimes at bilateral and multilateral fora going forward.

India sent a high-level delegation to the Vancouver peacekeeping defence ministerial meeting in November 2017. It is the world's third largest contributor to international peacekeeping operations. The two leaders decided in India to enhance co-operation on peacekeeping to provide an effective response to global challenges. They stressed the importance of integrating gender perspectives into peace and security activities, and interventions in line with the women, peace and security agenda, including prevention of conflict-related sexual violence.

Taken as a whole, this visit reflects an important step forward in the Canada-India relationship. There is much our two countries can offer each other, in commercial and security terms and in the fruits of collaboration in international fora. To recognize the future of this commercial partnership, Canada and India announced a new dialogue on innovation, growth, and prosperity. This is a collaboration between Canada's Centre for International Governance Innovation and India's Gateway House. It will convene subject experts, government officials, and business leaders to promote economic growth and innovation in today's digital economy.

It is unfortunate that, rather than celebrating all of the accomplishments, the opposition is using today to attack public servants and question their non-partisanship. I will say one more time that Canada's national security agencies are non-partisan, highly competent, and effective. We trust them to promote and protect the security of Canadians. That is why I will be voting against the motion.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to echo the remarks made by the member who just concluded his speech by saying that we need to have complete confidence in senior public servants. We totally agree.

However, in order to build trust and ensure transparency, and to shed some light on these events, since everyone is getting caught up in the government's tangled web, the best way to proceed is to allow the individual who gave a technical briefing to journalists to speak. As a former journalist myself, I know what I am talking about.

Why did a senior public servant give information to journalists and not to all Canadians?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Madam Speaker, as I said during the course of my speech, the invitation that was made to Mr. Atwal was inappropriate. Once the history of the individual was known, the invitation was rescinded. The member of Parliament who made the invitation apologized for that. We have been very clear on this all the way through the process.

The member opposite talks about restoring trust in our public service. Frankly, over the period of time that the Conservatives were in government, we saw a sustained battering and attack on both the public service and its non-partisanship and independent nature, which we do not believe is appropriate. This is not a matter of restoring trust in those officials; I have trust in those officials. They have demonstrated that they do their job in a highly effective way. We trust them, their advice, and the non-partisan nature. We respect them, and the whole House should do the same.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, given that the various people involved, including the Prime Minister, are giving us contradictory versions of events, it is hypocritical to say that the opposition is not considering the point of view of security officials and public servants.

The motion is calling for that public servant to appear before the committee precisely because the opposition feels that he is the only one who can set the record straight. That is why we want to speak with that individual, and not the Prime Minister or the member in question, because there is a perception that they will not tell the truth.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Madam Speaker, I will say it again, and I suspect it will be said a lot today. There are not multiple versions of what happened. There is one version of what happened, and I will repeat it to be very clear.

Mr. Atwal should not have been invited. We have acknowledge that this was the case. As soon as we found out the information on his background, the invitation in question was rescinded. The member of Parliament who made the invitation apologized. We have stated this a number of times.

The advice that we get from the public service is at the core of the question of the opposition day motion. The motion calls into question the non-partisan nature of our public servants and the advice it gives, which we reject fully, completely, full stop.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Madam Speaker, with all due respect, we are not calling public servants into question. The Prime Minister's trip to India was a disaster, and not just in Canada. It was an international disaster.

We have indeed heard multiple versions, unlike what my colleague on the other side claims. He claims that there is just one version and that the Prime Minister apologized. The committee wants to hear from everyone, including a government official, because it seems to us on this side of the House that we are not getting the full story.

When the Prime Minister plays Canadians for fools on the international stage, we need an explanation. This is important to me, because all Canadians were made to look like fools, not just the Prime Minister. With all due respect to the members of this House, no matter which side they are on, we need an explanation.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Madam Speaker, I reject categorically the member's characterization of the trip. I just spent 20 minutes detailing, in great length, the enormous connections and bilateral relationships that were deepened, the economic ties that were driven, and the importance of having face to face meetings and having our officials in India. It is unfortunate she does not share that same view. However, that relationship deserves this level of attention. The various connections and bilateral engagements that we made in the meetings and how they furthered our economic interests not only of our country but of India were essential. Therefore, I reject the premise of the question entirely.

Second, the motion, absolutely, at its core is about attacking the independence and non-partisan nature of our public service. We have been very clear that we do not share that view. I was in opposition. I watched the previous government attack the public service and its independence, and we do feel that is appropriate. We do not feel the government should engage in or do that, and we will not do that.

We want talk about our economic partnership with India and how it can continue to be deepened.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, could my colleague expand on his last point? When we recognize what I would call the economic superpower in India, with a population base of close to 1.5 billion, there is an obligation for a good government to reach out and build those very important bridges, which ultimately will help not only Canada but India in doing things such as building a healthier middle class in Canada. If we can enhance that relationship and build the trading relationship, both countries could benefit immensely. Perhaps he could provide his thoughts on that.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Madam Speaker, my colleague is 100% right. His point is spot on. The reality is that the trade between our two countries has grown to be over $8 billion. Just since 2015, we have seen an increase of 6.6%, which represents about $2.3 billion in exchange both ways, every year. The opportunity that lies there is so much more than that. When we look at the size of our two GDPs and our two economies, this is what we hear from global experts. The possibility for greater economic integration and greater trade between our two countries means that way more can be done, both in growing our economy, creating more jobs for Canadians, and giving better access to Canadian companies to Indian markets. That is why this trade and continued dialogue with India is so essential.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, does the parliamentary secretary believe then that the request to bring Daniel Jean to the public safety committee to explain himself is a complete attack on all public service employees across Canada, including unionized members? How does he come to the conclusion that the request to bring one member before committee is reflective of every union and non-union public employee across the country?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax, ON

Madam Speaker, the quick answer is no. What I have said is that questioning the independence and the non-partisan nature of our public service is what I disagree with and take umbrage with. The invitation to have the individual before the committee is, in my view, inappropriate. There are other means and methods by which these matters should be examined. This is not the right direction or forum to take.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue.

The previous speaker, the parliamentary secretary, provided quite an in-depth look at some of the issues related to trade, economic connections, and social and cultural connections with India. Quite frankly, this motion does not get into all those elements. What it deals with is a parliamentary process that is key to our democracy, here in the chamber and in our committees, which is having a witness testify before our committee. What has taken place is that the Liberals have decided to use this person as an example of all public servants, apparently, in terms of their coming before this committee being seen as an attack. This is really a turning point that is going to be very much objected to by many union and non-union public servants across this country.

The mere suggestion that this would be an attack on the good men and women who serve this country every single day, whether it be at our borders or in our offices, internationally or domestically, is not only offensive but very unfortunate. It is very unfortunate that this has been characterized as an attack on the public service. I would impress upon the government that it move away from that discussion at this point. It is a rather unfortunate attempt to use the public service as a shield for problems the Liberal Party had with this trip.

The motion is about one individual, who provided information and advice, as per the job, to the Prime Minister that refute some of the public comments his own party has made on the problematic trip to India, not only from the get-go but during it and after. To use that person as a shield for the Liberals' personal and political embarrassment is insulting and certainly derogatory.

This request to have Mr. Jean come forward is reasonable and in order. It would only provide clarification. I would add that this person is probably not even representative of the hundreds of thousands of workers in the public service. There probably is a political appointment involved with this to some degree. If not, it does not matter. The Liberals should be ashamed. That they would actually politicize the collective work of our workers at their expense I think will make this a watershed moment.

What has happened is that the Prime Minister's trip to India went off the rails. They admitted that 14 members and six cabinet ministers went along. They had 20 members go over there, and all kinds of things happened. These are things they are concerned about, whether it was flying chefs across the country and eventually to India, hiring for fashion design and photography, or the parties, where they ran out of booze. It became embarrassing. All those things happened, and their members were part of that and were there for that. It was supposed to be a positive public relations exercise and it has turned wrong.

The serious nature of this is the defence of the Atwal situation. We have a person convicted of a very serious crime in Canada, who went through our court system, who was put on one of these party lists. There has been controversy, blaming, and finger pointing about how he got on that list. What was serious was the blame that went to the Indian government.

They can write all they want about the positive things, such as trade with India and the cultural connections, all those things many of us experience in our ridings on a daily basis, but at the end of the day, with the finger pointing by the Prime Minister across the ocean to a foreign country, it became a very serious matter. It is one of the reasons they became an international laughingstock.

All one has to do is google this trip. For CNN, The Washington Post, and overseas media it not only became a story for the day but became a continuing story. Here we had the Prime Minister of one of the most important democracies in the world pointing the finger at another democracy, because he was politically embarrassed. That is not going to be un-watched, forgotten, or brushed under the covers. This is a pattern of behaviour. This is about a problem the government has.

Unfortunately, the government would like that to go away, but this was all done with public money. This was all done under the rules and regulations of the democracy we have, and part of that is accountability. That is what the official opposition and our party are supposed to be doing. That is part of our democracy. It is a principle element to make sure that we are going to stay true to being open and transparent. Maybe we could debate the level of that, but there are certain laws.

What happened is that we and the official opposition asked that this individual, in a key moment in diplomatic relations, which will not go away, come before committee. That is important, because he will have to give testimony, and it will have to be truthful or he will perjure himself. When people come before parliamentary committees, they have to provide the truth, or they will be subject to further punishment under the law.

The concern of the Liberals is that the person would then lose his cover, and most importantly, the Liberals would lose their cover on something very embarrassing and very serious.

Today's motion is very reasonable. The process would be televised. Canadians will be able to judge for themselves the politics of this. More importantly, the accountability of this House will be enshrined, and it will be determined whether appropriate things did or did not take place.

We have had these watershed moments in the past. I have been around here long enough to have seen everything from the sponsorship scandal to the Schreiber-Mulroney issue and any number of different things. I am working right now on the issues related to Facebook and data privacy breaches. It actually goes back to the Liberal Party, as it is one of their creatures who was involved in this.

The reality is that at least through that process at committee, there would be an accountable lens applied to our governing practices. The Liberals may not like that, but they have been on this end and they have been on that end. The reality is that this is what happens.

That is why I take great offence to the Liberals saying that this is an attack on our public service. Under the previous administration, the Conservatives had practices that I did not like and did not support. There needed to be some serious talk about what was happening to scientists and a series of other things. We have seen some of that change, but very little.

For the Liberals to suggest that the Conservatives are doing this as a broader attack on the people who get up every single day to provide services for Canadians is shameful, disrespectful, and harmful, and it further erodes the reasons people should be involved in the public service to begin with.

We are talking about a senior position. It is someone who reports to the ministers and the Prime Minister and is expected to provide information and intelligence. The Prime Minister and ministers decide what to do with that. That is now being repeated by government members with respect to the Atwal situation and whether he gets an invite or does not get an invite, and who is at fault and who is not at fault.

That has led to an international incident in the sense that we are now forever branded, under the current administration of the Indian government and our current Liberal government, as the government that is willing to point the finger and say that it does not really want to find out what took place on our soil with our own people. The Liberals will just say that it is that country's fault. That is not the way to go about work.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Madam Speaker, there are a few things we need to remember today. We are hearing one version from the Liberals.

First of all, we need to remember Mr. Atwal's background. He is actually a long-time friend of the Liberal Party. He has known the Prime Minister in the past. For the Liberals to pretend that they do not know anything about him is just at attempt to mislead Canadians.

The parliamentary secretary said that there is only one version of this. Well, there are actually four versions. There is Daniel Jean's version, there is the Prime Minister's version, there is the foreign affairs minister's version, and there is Mr. Atwal's version. It is reasonable for the opposition to be asking questions about which one of those is true.

When the government says that it believes that there is a non-partisan public service and that it trusts our public service, what I think it is actually saying is that it trusts that Daniel Jean is not going to tell what really happened. That is one of the reasons I suspect the government is going to try to keep him from going to committee. I think when we hear from him, we will hear that the Liberals are using the non-partisan public service to try to achieve their goals.

Why do you think Canadian MPs are being asked to settle for less information and less access to Mr. Jean than the media has already had?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I am sure the member meant “why he” and not “why you”. Again, it is important to address questions through the chair.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, one of the key elements of our democracy, regardless of political party, is the standing committees of the House of Commons.

The member is quite right to note the way information comes out. There are laws that govern that and follow through on that. There is the general court system for accountability when we leave the chamber, such as when a member slanders someone. More importantly, there is committee testimony. People giving committee testimony are accountable. I will give the House an example.

Recently, all parties agreed to have Apple come before our committee to provide testimony about some of the issues it has had with regard to problems with batteries in its products. That was important, because Apple is now on the record. It is accountable to Canadians for what they should expect to receive.

It is the same thing with Mr. Jean. His appearance at committee will be the moment when we get the absolute truth, which is the only way to go forward.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I am disappointed in the NDP. Those members are claiming that this is not a question of confidence in the public service. National security agents and our public service are fantastic in what they do. They do their jobs in an apolitical fashion.

Some members want to confront a civil servant for his professionalism, and because they choose to challenge him, they think it should be done. We have a public safety committee, and that committee, from what I understand, has the same motion in front of it. Why not let that committee deal with this? Why do we feel that we have to question the public service and the professionalism of a particular individual?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, I cannot say that I am unhappy that the parliamentary secretary is unhappy with the NDP or is disappointed in us. I would suggest that the mere fact that he was part of this trip should make him want to recuse himself from some of the discussions taking place here today.

Having said that, we are talking about one individual. We can see in that member's remarks that he is trying to lump all civil servants together, and we can follow this through later on. We are talking about one person in the motion today. What that member is referring to now is the entire public service.

I would suggest that having openness and transparency shed on this Liberal adventure, which was more a debacle for the rest of us, is important. It is not just the NDP saying this. The member just needs to google The Washington Post or CNN to see what the world is saying about this trip by the Prime Minister.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, today we are discussing a motion to instruct one of our public officers to appear before a committee to try to shed some light on a situation about which we have heard far too many stories.

This situation occurred during the trip to India. I think is important to present some of the key aspects of the trip. First of all, most Canadians have absolutely no idea what the strategy was behind this trip and this is true of various aspects. For example, when it comes to the criteria the Prime Minister used for determining who would join him on the trip, there is no way of getting a guest list or understanding exactly the purpose of the trip. I think that there were a number of ministers who could have made a valuable contribution to the debate in India and that it would have been important to include them, but they were not there.

Why was the Minister of International Trade not there? That is an important question. I would think that in planning a trip to India, the Minister of International Trade would have a stake. What is more, if he had been there, then there would have been at least one person there who can speak French. I think we have every right to ask that question.

One of the people whose name came up the most often was the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. I think that he should have been there, given the trade issues regarding chickpeas and lentils. India has increased import tariffs on chickpeas from 30% to 40%. That has a direct impact on our farmers and yet neither the Minister of International Trade nor the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food were there to talk about it. That alone raises a number of questions, but the list goes on.

Right now, there is an unprecedented labour shortage in our rural regions. Why did the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship not go on that trip to discuss the possibility of establishing partnerships to recruit workers who would be interested in coming to Canada to work? That would have been a very relevant and worthwhile discussion.

Recently, we learned that companies are now subcontracting the reading of X-rays to India. Hospitals are sending X-rays and other scans to specialized medical clinics in India to be read. Had the Minister of Health been invited, she could have raised the legitimate concern of the reliability of those readings. She also could have raised the question that many Canadians are asking about this practice, and that is whether their personal medical data is adequately protected when the analysis of X-ray results are subcontracted to India. That would have been a very relevant question, and in my opinion, the Minister of Health could have contributed to that debate. However, she was not there either.

They also chose not to take the Minister of Status of Women even though India is among the countries where women have the most difficult living conditions. Absolutely horrible cases of gang rapes of women of the lowest castes have been reported by the media. I believe that the Minister of Status of Women could have had fruitful discussions with the Indian government about what is happening and assessed how to collaborate and provide India with tools to improve the quality of life of these women. However, she was not there either. What was the strategy and the purpose of this trip? What were they trying to accomplish?

I am going to talk a little about the schedule because MPs, when they are available, are asked to travel abroad to discuss issues. When I travel abroad, I always have an extremely busy schedule. Honestly, between my work day and a working dinner in the evening, I often have barely enough time to change. I change in five minutes and go from one event to the next. I do not understand how the Prime Minister had so much time to go sightseeing everywhere. It seemed much more like a sightseeing tour than a prime minister's state visit.

For such a trip, I expect the Prime Minister to attend a series of meetings on a tight schedule and have very little opportunity to go sightseeing, or at least keep it very brief. When a Prime Minister travels abroad, he is expected to meet with people, visit companies, and do a very serious job with specific objectives.

Unfortunately, there were not very many photos of the Prime Minister having meetings. Instead, we saw a lot of pictures of the Prime Minister visiting tourist attractions with his wife and children. That raises questions, particularly given his headline-making trip to the Aga Khan’s island. The Prime Minister should have shown restraint, and he should request that his trips be strictly professional from now on, so there is no longer any doubt as to what they are for. It is too bad that there were no specific visits or a structured, goal-oriented agenda for his India trip.

The disaster in question is the invitation sent to Mr. Atwal, who attended an event, by the way. It was only after the second event that this invitation was withdrawn, when it was realized that he was there. We heard different versions from a lot of people: from the Prime Minister, from the Minister of International Trade, from Mr. Atwal himself, from the member who decided to take the blame, and even from the Indian government. Nothing in this story holds water. Indeed, one of our public servants, who is non-partisan, is not permitted to appear before a committee. This makes absolutely no sense. If someone is able to provide the most impartial and accurate information, it would be precisely this person. It therefore makes absolutely no sense to refuse to hear from this individual in committee. We need some light shed on this, especially given the situation this has thrown us into.

Our diplomatic relations with India are a disaster, since the Prime Minister accused it of being behind this invitation. This is totally ludicrous. What is more, he did it without providing hard evidence, which makes it even worse. If solid evidence had been provided, I would have found it a little strange, but at least there would have been some proof. Not only did the Prime Minister suggest this, but he did so without providing any evidence to either the House or the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. It is all very disturbing.

This is a member of the Commonwealth, a country that swears allegiance to the same Crown as we do. I have had the chance to meet with several of its members of parliament. It is a country that we have a relationship with, and yet, this has been allowed to happen and nothing is being done to remedy the situation. The incident occurred almost a month ago and they are still sticking to the same story, despite its many holes and the fact that it is undermining our relationship, rather than putting a stop to all of this.

The trip was an unmitigated disaster, but now it is high time to end this farce. We need to know what really happened, and those who provided inaccurate information need to apologize so we can move forward and rebuild our relationship with India. Unfortunately, because both parties are determined to stick to their contradictory versions of events and refusing to shed light on what happened, our relations with India remain strained.

This situation could have consequences for months, if not years to come. This could even have repercussions on the relationships that subsequent governments will have with India. This is particularly worrisome. The least they could do is to allow Daniel Jean to appear before a committee, given the mess that the Prime Minister has put us in.

I look forward to my colleagues’ questions.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my NDP colleague for her great speech. She raises a good point. Indeed, Canadians were under the impression that this was a family trip.

The Prime Minister, statesmen and stateswomen, MPs and ministers keep a very tight schedule when they travel abroad. They have very little time for photo ops complete with costume changes. They also have little time to visit the Taj Mahal and surrounding area. Responsible statesmen and stateswomen, MPs and ministers are on a tight schedule.

Does my colleague get the impression that they are still pulling a fast one on us?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I will give another example. If Mr. Trump invited the Prime Minister to a state dinner in the United States, it would be appropriate for him to be accompanied by his wife and children, as our American colleague would likely do the same.

However, if the Prime Minister is travelling abroad with 14 members of Parliament, then it is to do work. A group of 14 people travelling together would fill a bus. I think that is a clear indication that they are there to work. I was surprised to see that the Prime Minister found the time to visit tourist attractions with 14 members of Parliament in tow.

I am not sure how we got here. To me this is an absurd situation. If the Prime Minister had to attend meetings with each MP, that would mean 14 meetings a day, assuming that the MPs in question had only one meeting per day. I do not understand how the Prime Minister found the time to do anything but attend meetings with the 14 MPs who joined him.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, shortly, I will be afforded the opportunity to address the motion and at that point I will talk about that special relationship between two great nations and expand on that.

I was intrigued by my New Democratic colleague when she said that we should have had this or that minister go. With a country like India of 250 million and growing potential in terms of that relationship, one could argue that virtually all ministers could have gone. If I listened correctly to the member across the way, maybe that is what she was suggesting.

Are there any ministers that she believes should not have gone on that trip? On this trip there were a number of ministers who went and a number of members of Parliament, including me, but are there ministers she believes should not have gone?

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, had I planned the trip to India, I would have given priority to certain ministers over others who went on the trip.

I realize that not all ministers can go. That is why I named five ministers. If my memory serves me well, there are 30 ministers in the cabinet. I do not think I named all cabinet members.

I also did not say that all the ministers should have gone. I said that there was no strategy for choosing them. I do not understand how they decided that these six ministers should participate and not others. I cannot get an answer to my question, but if my colleague wants to give it to me or table it in the House, he is welcome to do so.

I would like to know what criteria the cabinet used to determine which ministers went to India. I will wait impatiently for the parliamentary secretary to provide the list of criteria used to pick the members of the delegation that travelled to India.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to announce that I will be sharing my time with the member for Edmonton—Wetaskiwin. I would like to read from page 24 of a document that was published almost three years ago. It says, “It is time to shine more light on government...” It is the Liberal Party of Canada who said that, and it is true. The time has come for the Liberal government to shine some light on the pathetic scandal concerning Mr. Atwal and the Prime Minister of Canada.

As the saying goes, one lie begets another, and that is exactly what happened with the scandal involving Mr. Atwal and the Liberal Prime Minister of Canada. Unfortunately for us all, our Prime Minister disgraced Canada and Canadians around the world during his infamous mission to India. There was a dramatic and appalling incident the likes of which have never been seen in the history of Canada: a criminal attended a diplomatic event that the Prime Minister was also expected to attend.

I will not discuss in detail the trip during which we saw the Prime Minister spend eight days with six ministers and 14 other members, take pictures of everything, change his clothes five times a day every day of the week and show up at events dressed up in native costumes while everyone else was wearing Western garb. I will not discuss that. Nor will I discuss the fact that the Minister of Agriculture, and God knows that that was important, did not participate in the mission. However, I will discuss the biggest blunder, the presence of criminal Jaspal Atwal.

Who is this man? In 1986, Jaspal Atwal was found guilty of the attempted murder of an Indian minister in Vancouver. The House will probably remember that, during question period, my colleague, the hon. member for Yellowhead, described a situation that deeply moved me. He had witnessed the police operation leading to the arrest of the criminal when he was an RCMP officer. Jaspal Atwal was found guilty of attempted murder. The same Jaspal Atwal was present at the events surrounding the Prime Minister’s visit to India.

Here is the sequence of events that led to today’s motion to have Daniel Jean, the National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister of Canada, appear before a parliamentary committee. The criminal Atwal was present at an official event during a Canadian diplomatic mission to Mumbai, and that is when our suspicions were aroused. Mr. Atwal had his picture taken with all sorts of people, including our Prime Minister’s wife. I call him our Prime Minister because he is every Canadian’s prime minister. Unfortunately, he has not been up to the task, and he has not acted with the dignity befitting his position. When these events unfolded, when Mr. Atwal was found in attendance at a diplomatic event in Mumbai, the CBC began asking questions and uncovered the truth, identifying him. It then began to ask what a criminal was doing at such an event. That is when the Prime Minister had to come up with an explanation. He immediately said that it was the hon. member for Surrey Centre who had invited Atwal. He said that the hon. member took full responsibility for the event.

First of all, and I will be frank, it is very cowardly on the part of a prime minister to lay the blame on someone else. When you are a leader, you must assume full responsibility for your troops. You do not find a scapegoat and say, “You're responsible. You're taking the blame, I'm out of here.” A leader assumes full responsibility for his troops. In this case, he did not, and what comes next is even worse. Since the situation began to escalate, the National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister of Canada, Daniel Jean, met with journalists to give them a technical briefing on the situation. I was a journalist for 20 years, and I have been to dozens, even hundreds of these meetings. They are always interesting, because they give us a glimpse of the details about very specific situations, numbers, data and statistics that are not necessarily interesting to the public, but that allow us to get a better grasp of the situation.

At that technical briefing, the National Security Advisor did not talk about how many Canadians eat cereal in the morning. What he said was far more political. According to the media, at that briefing, the National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister of Canada said that the criminal Atwal’s presence was a plot orchestrated by the Indian government.

I like history, but try as I might, I could not remember one situation in the history of Canadian diplomacy that was as embarrassing, as shameful or as irresponsible as this one.

Need I point out that India is a Commonwealth country, that we have very close ties with India and that we need to preserve them? This situation with the criminal Atwal at a diplomatic event completely severed the bonds of trust and friendship that we need to have with a country as important as India. That the Prime Minister asked the senior official responsible for national security to meet with journalists to tell them something like that is of serious consequence.

That is where all the contradictions start. In the House on February 27, the Prime Minister agreed with the version given the journalists by his National Security Advisor to explain the presence of the criminal Atwal, in other words that it was an plot fomented by the Indian government. The next day, on February 28, India, highly offended, vigorously denied this version of the facts and squarely laid the blame on our Prime Minister. I say “our” Prime Minister because the entire country is now paying for the Liberal Prime Minister’s mistake.

So, on February 27, the Prime Minister told the House that he agreed with his National Security Advisor’s position that he was the victim of an Indian conspiracy. On March 3, we heard from the hon. member for Surrey Centre, the guy the Prime Minister picked out of a hat and blamed, then tossed aside like an old slipper. The hon. member said that it was his fault, that he was the one who had invited Atwal. This contradicts what the Prime Minister said, in other words that India was behind it all.

That is not all. On March 9, the criminal Atwal, not without pointing out that he knew the Prime Minister very well, not without pointing out that he had participated in dozens and dozens of Liberal Party activities in his part of the country, said that he received the invitation from the High Commission, that he honoured the invitation and that India had nothing to do with it. This contradicts the Prime Minister’s version.

Lastly, on March 11, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is not exactly a nobody in cabinet, said, “It’s an honest mistake.” It is an honest mistake on Canada’s part.

So who is telling the truth? Is it the Prime Minister, who is relying on his senior official who is telling all the journalists that it is a conspiracy, or is it the hon. member for Surrey Centre, who is saying that he is at fault? Is it the senior official who says one thing, or is it Atwal, who says that he is responsible, that he went on his own? Or is it the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who says that it was an honest mistake?

That is what I was saying. When you do not tell the truth, you end up stuck in a web of lies. That is the issue here, and that is why it is at the heart of the motion.

The motion put forward by my colleague from Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles would finally allow Canadians to learn the truth.

Here is a senior official, Daniel Jean, who met with journalists to make serious accusations, to say that India was responsible for having the criminal Atwal show up at diplomatic events. That is what he said. Great. He said that to journalists, who wrote it down. Also great. Now, let him tell that directly to Canadians.

That is what we are asking, but, oh, what a surprise, these people who got elected by saying that it was time for a transparent government are refusing Canadians the most basic transparency: allowing people who said things to journalists to testify before a committee. Why such obfuscation? The best way for Canadians to finally learn the truth is for them to hear this guy testify rather than continue to cover it up.

Opposition Motion—National Security Advisor to the Prime MinisterBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, the issue is actually fairly clear. All sides have said that the invitation should never have been sent. We recognize that. We have said that on numerous occasions. Once the government found out that the invitation was sent, it was rescinded, meaning the person in question was not able to go to the second event. That is what would have been expected of any government.

However, when we look at the simple facts of that, the opposition wants to try to bring in someone from the public service, someone who has an incredible record within the public service, which represents Canadian interests and is non-partisan. Given the simple truth of the matter, why do the Conservatives, and somehow they have coerced the NDP to come on side, feel they should be able to pick and choose public servants, whoever they might be, today it is this one, on any issue whatsoever they choose to make political?