House of Commons Hansard #275 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was post.

Topics

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

On division.

Procedure and House AffairsCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Speaker, once again the government is showing that it is not willing to be open and transparent. Early in 2016, when I foresaw what the Liberals were going to try to do with this legislation, I submitted an Order Paper question, asking the government to provide proof of any loss of protection or harm caused by the 2012 legislation. There were no answers from the government, no proof of harm, no loss of protection.

Therefore, why are the Liberals now limiting debate on the legislation, limiting our parliamentary ability to do our job and to proceed with debate on this important legislation? Why is the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard not confident in the legislation and so afraid to have it fully debated in the House?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Mr. Speaker, in fact, not only are we fully confident in the legislation and proud of the amendments we have proposed to the Fisheries Act, we look forward to having the legislation thoroughly analyzed and scrutinized in the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. We hope the committee will hear from Canadians, from those interested in offering suggestions of how the legislation perhaps could be improved.

The only thing we are seeking to do is restore the loss of protections deleted in the legislation in 2012 and incorporate modern safeguards. That is a commitment we made to Canadians in the election of 2015, and we think this legislation is exactly how that should be done.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to say on the record parenthetically that I find the use of time allocation, as happening almost on a daily basis these days, to be quite shocking. I know that when in opposition, the Liberal Party promised not to use time allocation. It seems things were so bad under the previous government that being less bad is good enough for the Liberals. I do not think that is good enough really. However, I cannot resist the opportunity to ask the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard a question about his quite excellent legislation.

I am glad Bill C-68 is before us. We need it desperately. However, is he open to an amendment on a particular section that I was pleased and surprised to see, which is the barring of taking cetaceans into captivity? Would the minister be open perhaps to adding language so the bill that is now stuck in the Senate, Bill S-203, could have key elements incorporated into Bill C-68, in other words not just capturing but keeping or importing?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands for her support of the legislation. As I have said many times, we would be open to working with her and with all members of the House with respect to specific suggestions that would improve the legislation.

I agree with the member that the inclusion of the provisions around taking of cetaceans for captivity was inspired by the work done by the Senate, by Bill S-203, and former senator Wilfred Moore from the province of Nova Scotia. My colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands, having studied law at Dalhousie University as did Senator Moore, would understand the importance of getting the right balance in legislation that keeps up with what we think is the widely held sentiment of Canadians.

With respect to the member's specific suggestion of those amendments, I would be happy to work with her to see how the intent of Bill S-203 and the substantive elements of that bill could be incorporated into amendments in the Fisheries Act. I look forward to having that conversation with her and with any other colleague.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Speaker, I echo my colleague's comments about the procedure and the way in which this bill is moving forward. I find it is very unfortunate that we are using time allocation to pre-empt the process of full and rich debate that we need to have in the House.

On the substantive side of the bill, I express my support, and the New Democrats do support elements of bringing back the protections of HADD, the harmful alteration, disruption, and destruction of fish habitat. The minister is open to amendments and welcomes them. Would he be open to protecting environmental flows for fish, which is an important element and is a real problem, not only with allocation of water in different provinces and territories but with the changing climate? Determining those flows and preserving those flows for fish is incredibly important. Could he comment on that?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Port Moody—Coquitlam for his insight into this legislation. I think we have a lot more in common around this bill and the things we think are important to protect. There are perhaps a few areas where we may not be exactly of the same mind.

With respect to the importance, I know West Coast Environmental Law and a number of groups have talked to me and have done excellent work on what is a fairly new area around protecting environmental flows with respect to fish and fish habitats. It certainly had not been something, as I understood, that might have been contemplated 20 or 40 years ago when the House or our previous Parliament would have been ceased with amendments to the Fisheries Act. I have said publicly, and I will say it again, that I would be happy to work with him and other colleagues if they have specific suggestions of how we can better strengthen those provisions.

It is time that concept be incorporated into what is important environmental legislation, the Fisheries Act. I would welcome the chance to work with colleagues on those improvements.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken McDonald Liberal Avalon, NL

Mr. Speaker, as the minister knows, I sit on the Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans. We studied this and heard from witnesses and groups from coast to coast to coast. An overwhelming theme was to replace the lost protections due to the changes in 2012. However, as well, I wanted to administer a comment about the restoration of those protections. An overarching theme we heard from witnesses from my home province of Newfoundland and Labrador was the incorporation of owner/operator into the Fisheries Act itself.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Avalon for his advice and for his insight into the fishery industry in his province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I have had the privilege to work with him. In fact, we met two fishers from his constituency who were in Ottawa last week. It is an opportunity for me to work with a colleague who is committed to the sustainable growth of the fishing industry in his province of Newfoundland and Labrador. There was a number of very innovative ideas of how we could improve the livelihood of the women and men who depended on that resource.

One of those elements for our government was incorporating the principle of owner/operator and fleet separation in the legislation, giving those long-standing policies force of law in Atlantic Canada and in Quebec. On the east coast of Canada, these policies have been part of the economic survival and economic future of coastal communities and those dependent on these resources. We want to ensure that the real ownership of these fishing licences remain in the hands of professional harvesters, professional fishers, not in the hands of some corporations that seek indirectly to do what they cannot do directly. We are very proud of that improvement. Again, we will work with colleagues who have ideas on how we can strengthen that.

Some colleagues from other parts of the country have talked to me about this policy and how it could in fact apply to their areas. We look forward to those conversations as well.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Mr. Speaker, we are giving the Minister of Fisheries this question period because the government has moved to shut down the debate in the House. He keeps on saying how he would love to work with his colleagues and hear from his colleagues. He has a funny way of showing it when he cuts off the debate and limits it to one further day, with so few members having been able to participate in the debate.

It is somewhat deliciously ironic that when the member was the house leader for the Liberal Party when it was the third party, he used to rail against the member for York—Simcoe any time he tried to manage a debate in the House of Commons. Then it was terrible. Then it was the Conservatives shutting the place down, padlocking Parliament, and silencing democracy. However, today it is necessary to move it to committee as soon as possible.

Why was time allocation so bad when the Conservatives did it, but so good when his colleagues in the Liberal Party do it today?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Chilliwack—Hope for his passion in resisting these parliamentary procedures that would, in fact, bring legislation to committee.

In the last Parliament, when we were the third party in opposition, as the hon. member properly noted, I used to think that notes were left in the desk to my right or written perhaps on the lid of the desk from the former Conservative House leader.

Our commitment was to restore lost protections and incorporate modern safeguards in the Fisheries Act. We think we have found the right balance in the legislation in these amendments. We do not pretend there are not ways that perhaps it could be improved. I have had conversations with colleagues from the Conservative Party, from the New Democratic Party, and with colleagues in my own caucus.

As we have seen in recent days, the Conservative commitment to having constructive debate on legislation should perhaps be taken with a grain of salt in light of the events of last week and earlier today. We thought it was time to get the legislation to committee and allow it to do its important work.

We look forward to those conversations with colleagues at committee. Perhaps our colleague from Chilliwack—Hope will come to those committee sessions. I hope to be invited to attend the committee meetings and we can continue this important conversation there.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Chilliwack—Hope makes a good point, but from this perspective it is hard to take when we hear a member from the previous government, and we know how many times the Conservatives invoked time allocation, say the government is using the same tactics. It is unfortunate and it is at times hard to know who is worse. That is what Canadians are seeing when they look at how we are making legislation.

On the substantive part of the bill, the minister referenced owner/operator on the east coast in the Atlantic provinces and Quebec. However, on the west coast where there is now a real movement to have owner/operator adjacency looked at, would he be open to incorporating those principles that he and his father fought so hard to incorporate? Would he consider having that on the west coast and having a serious consultation, opening it to those who want to comment on the west coast? Is he open to those ideas and amendments?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, my colleague referenced owner/operator. As I said in my response to my colleague from Avalon, this policy has been an essential part of the economic opportunities afforded to coastal communities on the east coast in Atlantic Canada and in Quebec. We have been encouraged by representatives of fish harvesters from all provinces on the east coast to strengthen these measures. I hope the amendments we propose in Bill C-68 are part of that work.

With respect to the west coast, I, too, like our colleague from British Columbia, have met with representatives of fish harvesters on the west coast, including indigenous communities. They have talked to me about the importance of them gaining greater ownership of the instruments that will allow them to be much more in control of the economic development of their communities. It is certainly true of indigenous nations, and they have different rights to access the fish than perhaps others

However, I would be wide open to having a conversation with my colleague from Port Moody—Coquitlam, but also other colleagues from British Columbia, including those in my own caucus, about how some of the benefits of this policy could be applied to British Columbia. I do not pretend that it is as simple as installing those provisions directly in the legislation, but he talked about a consultative process. The legislation is deliberately designed to be permissive so should British Columbia and the industry there want to look at this kind of legislative instrument, the provisions in the bill would be there, and we would look forward to those conversations.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is very rich that the minister stands here today and talks about our first nations. We just had an incredible ceremony for the Tsilhqot'in Nation in my riding. He talks about Bill C-68, his ministry, and how he and other ministers are willing to engage with first nations. The Liberals have a lawsuit with one of the largest first nations in the province of British Columbia, the Lax Kw'alaams, specifically over Bill C-68, and the other bill, Bill C-55, the lack of consultation, of listening, and the first nations assertion that the government is taking its direction from foreign ownership third party groups.

I want to offer the minister another chance to clarify his comments. We are standing today because the government is shutting down debate, not allowing the 338 members of Parliament from all sides to stand and voice their concerns for Bill C-68. Indeed, those who have some serious issues like the Lax Kw'alaams have now launched a lawsuit against the government.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, we certainly recognize the importance of consultation with indigenous nations as we develop amendments to something as important to these communities, and to the people in these indigenous nations, as the Fisheries Act.

Two weeks ago, in my hon. colleague's province of British Columbia, I had the opportunity to meet with representatives of four of those indigenous nations. I am proud that over 200 indigenous groups submitted suggestions and ideas for amendments to the Fisheries Act during the consultative process our department undertook.

Some of the essential elements of Bill C-68 are deliberately designed to enhance that nation-to-nation partnership with indigenous people. For example, we are proposing new provisions in the Fisheries Act that would require the minister to consider adverse effects that decisions made under the act may have on the rights of the indigenous people of Canada. As affirmed by section 35, the minister would be obligated to consider, when making decisions related to fish habitat protection and pollution prevention, provisions in the act related to the traditional knowledge of the indigenous people of Canada. There are provisions to protect the confidentiality of the traditional knowledge provided to the government, except under very specific circumstances. There are provisions that would enable the minister to establish advisory panels, which would obviously include representatives of indigenous nations.

We think the legislation would modernize the nation-to-nation relationship our government is seeking to have with indigenous nations, which begins with the recognition of rights. That is something my colleagues, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, have talked publicly and to the government about for many months. We think the legislation goes exactly in that direction.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say how frustrating it is having time allocation brought forward on an important piece of legislation we have been waiting years to have come before the House and to have debate on it completely muzzled. It is not healthy for our democracy. We were all sent here to represent our constituents, and they expect us to be a strong voice for them here in Parliament.

I remember during the election the Liberals saying that they would be different. They were going to be better and would work with other parties. They are doing the exact same thing the Conservatives did. Even the minister acknowledged that notes were left on his desk from the former Conservative House leader. It is very frustrating, because he says again and again that they are going to work with opposition members and consult with us, but here he is forcing time allocation on an important bill. How can he justify that?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I share her concern. The New Democratic Party says that this has taken a great deal of time and that it is anxious to get this legislation before Parliament and before Canadians. I have had this conversation with my colleague and friend, the fisheries critic for the New Democratic Party.

We brought this legislation in at the earliest opportunity, having widely consulted with Canadians. For example, over 170 meetings were held with indigenous groups. We received over 200 submissions. I personally received hundreds of letters. A total of 5438 e-workbooks were completed by Canadians online and submitted to our department. The fisheries and oceans committee had extensive consultations in its review of the changes made to the 2012 Fisheries Act. The committee heard over 50 witnesses and had 188 written briefs submitted. It had over 15 meetings.

We think it is important for this legislation to be before the standing committee, where members can hear from Canadians and hear from those who have shared with our government so many positive, interesting, and innovative ideas for strengthening this legislation.

We look forward to working with all colleagues in the legislative process, both in this House and in the other place. I had the opportunity to share that exact sentiment with a number of senators last week.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Mr. Speaker, as a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I am quite happy to see this legislation come forward. One thing I thought was great is that every recommendation we put forward in our report on the Fisheries Act was accepted by all parties on the fisheries committee.

We heard from lots of people. We heard from over 50 people who appeared before committee. There were lots of submissions.

I would like to ask the minister if he could address some of the consultations he heard. We just heard that he has had many of them. Did they come from right across the country? How did he go about determining what was going into the bill?

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank our colleague from South Shore—St. Margarets for her work on committee and for her advocacy on issues important to all Canadians, such as the very difficult question of abandoned derelict vessels. Her views have been shared with our caucus and our government consistently and have led to some of the significant improvements we have made. We have more work to do, and we will continue to do that work with all members of the House of Commons.

One of the things our colleague from South Shore—St. Margarets has talked to me about consistently is improving small craft harbours, which are important economic engines not only in her communities in Nova Scotia but right across the east coast, the west coast, and obviously, Canada's north.

Her specific question on consultation is important. One of the things we did when we were contemplating amendments we were going to propose to the Fisheries Act was to be inspired by the reaction of Canadians to the 2012 changes, which were included in omnibus budget legislation and were pushed through the House of Commons in record time, without adequate scrutiny.

We took two years to listen to Canadians. We received thousands of submissions from across the country. Those changes and the work of the standing committee informed the amendments we made. We are proud of these changes we are proposing to the Fisheries Act.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the minister brought up the committee study that was done on the proposed changes to the Fisheries Act. I am just wondering why he ordered the committee to finish its study prematurely, before the submissions forwarded from first nations were received by the committee. The committee had to finish drafting its report before those submissions were received, submissions that were paid for with millions in government funds. The submissions were not provided to committee so that they could be considered in its deliberations. The minister is doing the same thing by cutting debate short on this legislation so that we cannot fully debate the bill.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, there appears to be some confusion. Perhaps the member is remembering when the previous Conservative government ordered committees to shut down hearings, cancel meetings, or cut off witness lists. A Conservative colleague from his own province prepared a rather extensive workbook on how to disrupt committees. Members who were in the last Parliament would remember that important work done by the Conservative Party. It was sort of a how-to manual on disrupting or vandalizing committee hearings.

My colleague has perhaps confused what happened in the last Parliament. I do not order a committee to do anything. I look forward to working with members of parliamentary committees. If colleagues on that committee decided to hear certain witnesses or decided on a certain work plan, perhaps he should address those questions to his colleagues who were on that committee. I do not sit on that committee, and I certainly do not vote on that committee. I certainly would not purport to, in his words, order colleagues on a parliamentary committee to do anything. I look forward to working with them. That is something the previous government perhaps struggled with.

Bill C-68—Time Allocation MotionFisheries ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will concede that my colleague from Cariboo—Prince George, the Conservative fisheries critic, makes a good point. He talked about indigenous people in court. The 'Namgis first nation was in court last week about salmon aquaculture.

I will acknowledge that the government has included traditional knowledge in the bill, which is important to look at, but it does not talk about free, prior, and informed consent or recognize how UNDRIP, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, would be incorporated into the legislation. I wonder if the minister could talk about that.