House of Commons Hansard #294 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was tax.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

An hon. member

What about people in the north?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

People up north, my colleague rightly points out, will face even greater costs because of the enormous price of heating their homes in -40°C or -45°C weather and the enormous cost of transporting oneself across enormous distances. All of these activities will become exponentially more expensive.

The government says, “Do not worry; it is all revenue neutral.” That is another one of these fancy political terms that politicians like to use that cause most eyes to glaze over, including in the case of many of the people who use the terms themselves. I asked the finance minister, “Does revenue neutral mean free?” He could not answer the question.

I am not sure if he has answered a single question in his two years in Parliament, but he could not answer when on more than a dozen occasions I asked him what this carbon tax would cost. He can not and he will not say.

How can we even know that it is revenue neutral if the government will not tell us what the original cost is? How can we know if the average family is getting back what it puts in, in taxes, if we do not know what it is in the first place? The finance minister was in committee the other day, and he said that he would tell us in September, after he is given permission to impose it.

That would be like someone going to a used car dealer and having the dealer say he will sell the car and put it on a credit card, but the person can only find out the price for the car after the purchase is made—and by the way, there is no money back if the person does not like what he paid. In other words, if we make the deal now and agree to make the payment today, seven or eight months down the road the government will tell us what came out of our bank account.

That is not how business is done in a civilized G8 democracy. Here in Canada, government has the responsibility to tell people what it will cost before people are required to pay. That is why we are going to continue to fight against this carbon tax cover-up.

The carbon tax is only one area where the government is raising the cost of living. Eighty percent of middle-class Canadians are paying higher income tax today than when the Prime Minister took office. That number will rise to 92% of middle-class Canadians, and their average cost within the next three years will be over $2,000 in new payroll taxes, new income taxes, and other taxes. That is according to the prestigious Fraser Institute, which has conducted this calculation.

Canadians are paying more of all sorts of taxes. They are also paying more for their debt. Their debt levels are being hit with higher interest rates. As I pointed out earlier, major banks are raising the cost of interest on Canadians, and that is partly due to the increased bond yields on government debt. The more the government borrows, the more it makes it expensive for Canadians to borrow, driving up the cost of living.

Let me conclude by saying that on this side of the House, we will always put people before government. We will fight for lower taxes and more affordable consumer prices for all Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Gatineau Québec

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement

Madam Speaker, for 10 years, Canadians were left waiting for Mr. Harper's Conservative government to come up with a plan to combat climate change. We see that things have not really changed since then.

The member opposite talks about a carbon tax cover-up. There is indeed a carbon tax cover-up. The carbon tax cover-up is the absence for 12 long years of a modicum, a shred, a tiny bit of a plan from his party to fight climate change in this country and to impose a price on carbon pollution. For once and for all, will the member stand in his place on behalf of his political party and tell us what its plan is to fight climate change?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, over 10 years we reduced taxes and greenhouse gas emissions at the same time. We got the results rather than just the rhetoric. We set targets to continue to reduce them, targets that the member's government has now accepted, admitting that our approach to our targets were the right ones.

I have to congratulate the member on his candour. He said, “There is...a carbon tax cover-up.” It is very rare that a speech by a backbench government MP becomes famous or infamous. However, I can tell him that his intervention will be made famous, and we will do everything we can to help.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. Unfortunately, I seem to be listening to an old broken record because we heard the same speech last week.

The Conservatives are trying to scare people by saying that carbon pricing could hurt their pocket books, but that is completely absurd. Quebec has had carbon pricing for 10 years and British Columbia, Alberta, and Ontario also have a tax on carbon. As far as I know, these provinces have not had excessive inflation. On the contrary, they are showing leadership by tackling the biggest problem of our generation, climate change.

I would like my Conservative colleague to tell me how much doing nothing about climate change is going to cost families. The national round table on the environment and the economy, which was created by the Conservatives, told us that the cost of natural disasters related to climate change could rise from $5 billion a year to $43 billion a year. That is what it will cost Canadian families if we do nothing to tackle climate change.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member accuses me of repeating myself and he is right, because the truth does not change. That is why I am repeating myself and will continue to do so in the House of Commons. I will not stop asking the government to put an end to the secrecy and tell us how much the carbon tax is going to cost Canadians.

The hon. member mentioned the carbon taxes in British Columbia, Quebec, and other provinces. What is interesting is that in each of the examples he gave, the governments come out ahead and taxpayers lose. As Canadians are paying more taxes because of these schemes, governments are increasing their revenues. The promise being made by governments like the one before me, namely that these programs are revenue neutral, never comes true in the real world. Even in British Columbia, where the premier at the time promised that the tax would be revenue neutral, the government increased its revenues through the carbon tax and people paid more taxes.

We are here to protect taxpayers, for that is what the Conservative Party does. We put people before governments.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be joining the hon. member for Carleton in kicking off this debate on the carbon tax and its impact on families.

When we talk about affordability, we mean the bottom line for the average taxpaying Canadian: at the end of the day, how much would Canadians be paying just for the basic cost of living? It is going up, and it is not going up because of market forces; it is going up because of government action.

The carbon tax is a big driver of it, but it is not the only one. There are things like minimum wage, payroll taxes, and government decisions on energy regulations, which are making it harder for companies to keep Albertans and Canadians employed. That is having an impact at the end of the day on the budgets of families, especially those in my riding who find themselves on the tail end of a recession, in a recovery that they are hoping will bring back jobs, which they are not seeing. What they are seeing is that at the end of the month, their bills are higher.

They are paying more for heat. Of course they are. Even the federal government said they are going to be paying $200 more to heat their homes. They are paying more at the pump. If they drive vehicles, they are paying upward of 11¢ more. People in British Columbia and Vancouver are now seeing the direct impact on their bills. Every single month, they are paying more. Life is getting more difficult, not easier.

I know the government will say it supposedly lowered taxes on middle-income Canadians. That is not true. It actually lowered taxes for every single MP in the House, who got the full benefit of that middle-income tax cut. It is like the government does not even know how the tax system works when it makes that claim.

Yesterday I had the privilege of sitting down with students and young people from CJPAC. We had an exchange of ideas and talked about issues of the day in politics. At every single table I went to, they expressed skepticism about the carbon tax. They expressed skepticism about what the government is doing because they recognize it. One young man told me what he thinks about the carbon tax. He said it would be like going to a dealership, picking out a car with his parents, purchasing a vehicle without knowing the price, and being told they will only know the price when they roll it off the lot. That is the only time they will know what the price is. That is how young people feel about the carbon tax.

The other side will say that it is nothing of the sort and that people like the carbon tax because they like doing something for the environment. People do, but this is not the only thing that they can do. There is an entire array of options. The previous Conservative government took advantage of them. Through regulation, it sought to reduce GHG emissions, and we know that GHG emissions went down. They went down.

We know that families are paying more at the pump. They are paying more to heat their homes. They are paying more for basic products.

Transportation has gone up. When we go to the grocery store today, we pay more for our vegetables, fruits, and meats. I notice that. I go to the Superstore in my riding and meet constituents, and everybody is saying that. The number one thing people email me about nowadays is the cost of living and how expensive it has become.

I always tell them I would like to be able to help them and that I would like to be able to tell them how much, on average, it will cost families, but I cannot even tell them that because the government is covering it up. It is covering up the true cost of the carbon tax on the average family.

It is interesting that every single other government program and initiative is costed out. Projections are usually provided on the estimated impacts. We know that the finance department has done this, but those documents have been redacted so that Canadians and Parliament have no way of knowing.

Before the House now is a piece of legislation asking us to approve a rebate program. How can we approve a rebate program when we do not even know the average cost to Canadians? How can we approve a rebate program when we do not even know how much it would cost the average family, those with kids, those without kids, those with higher incomes, those with lower incomes? The government will not give us that information, and as a result Parliament is not able to make a judicious, intelligent decision on it. It wants that information only for itself and not the rest of Canadians.

I have asked Order Paper question 834 many times now. I have also made access to information requests on the Alberta carbon tax rebate. It is a rebate program in Alberta that is actually operated by the Canada Revenue Agency. It would provide more detailed information on the true impact on Albertans, and the government still will not release it to me. It still will not provide me with that information. Finance officials at the finance department are completely unable to answer the simplest of questions: how much will lower-income Canadians pay?

I have moved a motion at committee to compel that information to be produced, so that during the discussions on the budget implementation act we would know the true impact on Canadians, on cost of living increases, and on affordability, so that we can make a judicious decision on whether or not this will work. However, we cannot even do that.

They say that stubbornness is the greatest ill. It is a Yiddish proverb, but it applies. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the government does not want to release the information. I have heard the argument that it is an old memo and we do not need that information now. If it is old, great, but release it and give it to us. If the information is old and that is why the Liberals do not want to release it, then they should update the information and make it public. They made a document public on Monday last week that has been roundly panned in the media. It is basically a showpiece, a sell job by Environment Canada, to try to make the case for their carbon tax, and it is the only thing they are doing on their side.

We saw that Australia abandoned a carbon tax after two years of trying to impose it on Australians. Australians revolted. They said no, the cost of living has gone up too high, it is unaffordable, and this is not the way to do it. That is where we are today.

When I travel the country with the finance committee, and when I speak to Albertans in my riding, I can see that people are fed up with paying more just for the basics of living. They are not asking to buy a highly rated Tesla and have it subsidized by a provincial government. They just want to buy the minivan, the basics, so they can take their kids to a soccer or hockey game.

In my riding, we have the Erin Woods arena. The moment the carbon tax was introduced, the arena started paying more. Articles started appearing in the Calgary Herald, saying how much more arenas were paying for heating and to keep the ice cold. They are not getting a rebate. The people who are paying more are the kids, through their registration fees. It is their parents and the dads playing a pickup game on the weekend who are paying more. They do not get a rebate. This is not revenue neutral. The government gains revenue. This scheme has been exposed in British Columbia; the carbon tax there is not revenue neutral. There was a full-on admission that it is not.

A line we often hear on the government side is that over 80% of Canadians already pay a carbon tax. Let us wait until June in Ontario. Let us wait until May 2019 in Alberta. How will that argument hold up then, when the residents of those provinces revolt against the endless increases in the cost of living imposed by the federal government and by bad provincial governments? That is what is coming.

As I mentioned, the cost of living is going up. This is not just because of the carbon tax, but it is one of the big drivers. The minimum wage increases, payroll increases, and income tax increases on companies all matter, and they all have an impact. It is the aggregate, cumulative effect piling onto businesses and onto workers. They are the ones paying more, and they then pass the cost on to others. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I just do not understand the stubbornness on the government side of not wanting to reveal the information they have already, so that we can have a fulsome debate. A member on the Liberal backbench basically confirmed that there is a cover-up. Instead of talking about that, we could actually be debating the issue, the cost to Canadians, and the benefits.

I hear members on the New Democratic side saying that if we do nothing, then there is a cost. There are think tanks, universities, and private consortiums that can calculate projections. They provide their forecasts online. When it comes to the government's information on the cost to the average Canadian, we cannot have that information, but this other public information is freely available to all of us. How can we make a judgment when we only have half the information?

We need the full information, and we need to vote for this motion because it is for the benefit of Canadians. It is bringing their concerns to the House. The cost of living has been going up for two or three years now, because government actions are raising the cost of living for everyday families, with no benefit whatsoever. All it does is increase the bureaucracy and pay for more civil servants who are doing work in Ottawa but not out in our communities.

Like the member for Carleton said, it is about people, not government. The carbon tax is not about people; it is all about government revenue.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, let me give a tangible example, as it might help a few of the Conservatives on the other side, who adamantly oppose any idea of doing what is good for the environment.

A number of years ago, when I was in the Manitoba legislature, the province said it wanted to try to get individuals to buy more electric and gas hybrid cars. They came up with a $2,000 rebate program for individuals who wanted to do that. The carbon pricing or the price on pollution that is being universally applied across Canada is ultimately a demonstration of strong national leadership. As the member himself has pointed out, 80% of the provinces already have it today, so it is up to the provinces that receive the revenue. They receive over 99% of all the revenue generated from that, and they make the determination. Thus, if one province wants to give a rebate to, let us say, a farmer, for fuel, the province is entitled to do that.

Does the member oppose the provinces having the authority to do that? Is he suggesting that Ottawa should not allow the provinces to be able to do that?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, obviously the member has not read his own budget bill, because he would know that it is going to be imposed on the provinces on January 1, 2019.

The question is not whether one allows a province to do it; it is why one would impose it on the government of a province that does not want it, where the residents are saying they do not want the carbon tax. They have introduced a piece of legislation that will force it down their throats, and the cost of living increases with it. The member should refresh his memory on his own budget bill that he is trying to defend.

There is an imposition also, as there is GST paid on the carbon tax. That part of it is not being returned to the province of the people who are paying it. The excess is being kept. Hundreds of billions of dollars are going straight into the government coffers. This is not revenue neutral in any way.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech and his interventions. I am a bit skeptical because I thought that the Conservative Party believed in market forces and was a champion of the free market, of supply and demand and market pressures.

The carbon tax, or carbon pricing, is a market mechanism for ensuring a transition by exerting pressure on businesses, companies, and consumers. By doing so, the tax will help change habits and approaches in order to reduce pollution and to transition our economy to one less dependent on fossil fuels and more reliant on renewable energy.

I am somewhat surprised to see the Conservative Party refuse to use a market mechanism for the common good.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

We do not have a market system when the government sets a price and says that we have to pay it. In a real market system, there are people who want to buy a product or service, people who want to pay for them, and they negotiate. If the person does not want to pay for the product, he or she does not have to buy it. This case is not a real market. In fact, it is not a market at all. It is the government setting a price. This is a tax imposed by the government.

It is like claiming that the income tax taken from my wages and from those of my constituents works on a market-price system. This is not true. The government imposes the tax, and people are required to pay it. This is nothing like a market system.

I would also like to tell the member that putting a price on carbon may be a nice expression, but he should call it like it is: a tax on carbon and on people.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Independent

Erin Weir Independent Regina—Lewvan, SK

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the member for Calgary Shepard about the implications of having the carbon price in Canada, but not in other countries.

A concern is that that discrepancy could prompt carbon-intensive industry to relocate to places with lower environmental standards, which would eliminate Canadian jobs without reducing global emissions. The federal government could solve this problem by extending its carbon price to the carbon content of imports and rebating it on Canadian-made exports.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, the member brought up the issue of carbon leakage and carbon substitution, which is something many academics in Canada have talked about. Thus, he was right to point it out. It is an important issue.

It would be extremely difficult for the federal government to sit down and try to set carbon prices on every single product being imported into Canada, but carbon leakage and carbon substitution are an important public policy issue that we should be worried about.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

North Vancouver B.C.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change

Madam Speaker, I rise today to reaffirm the government's commitment to ensuring a healthier environment and a stronger economy for our children and our grandchildren.

Canadians know that climate change is real. Every year thousands of people are impacted by floods, wildfires, and other events. Extreme weather events are occurring more frequently and with increasingly severe consequences, and we are unfortunately seeing this right now in several parts of the country.

The costs of climate change are as evident as the impacts felt by Canadians.

From 1983 to 2004, insurance claims as a result of extreme weather events totalled $400 million a year. This amount has tripled over the past decade to $1.2 billion a year, because of unspeakable damage done to buildings, businesses, and lives. By 2020, climate change is expected to cost Canada's economy $5 billion a year. By 2050, it will be $43 billion a year.

The time for inaction and political procrastination is over. It is time to take the actions required to address climate change and position Canada for the clean growth economy of the future. This is exactly what Canadians elected our government to do, and this is exactly what our government is delivering.

We have a plan to reduce pollution and to meet our climate targets while growing our economy and creating good middle-class jobs. Our approach includes historic investments in public transit, green infrastructure, and clean innovation. It includes phasing out coal, improving energy efficiency, and cutting methane emissions from the oil and gas sector.

As published in December 2017 in Canada's third biennial report to the United Nations, Canada's GHG emissions are projected to be 232 megatonnes lower than expected in the report released in early 2016. This decline in projected emissions is the biggest improvement in Canada's emissions outlook since reporting began, and is directly a product of the pan-Canadian framework.

Moreover, this improvement is widespread across all economic sectors, reflecting the smart, practical outcomes that can be achieved by a thoughtful, comprehensive approach to protecting the environment and growing the economy.

Let us consider what our plan has achieved so far. Greenhouse gas emissions are falling. Over 600,000 jobs, most of them full time, have been created since this government was elected. Canada's unemployment rate is at its lowest level in nearly 40 years. Since 2016, Canada has led the G7 in economic growth. Lastly, the federal debt-to-GDP ratio, which is our national debt relative to our economy, is on a downward track and is set to reach its lowest level in nearly 40 years. In short, greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are falling , while the economy is booming.

We know that this approach, investing in growth that strengthens and grows the middle class and helps those working hard to join it, is exactly the right thing for Canadians.

A core element of our approach to lowering emissions and ensuring a healthier environment is the polluter pays principle. When pollution has a price, polluting less saves money. Individuals and companies make cleaner choices.

Experts around the world, including the vast majority of Canadian economists, agree that carbon pricing is one of the most cost-effective ways to reduce emissions. It provides companies and individuals with the freedom to make their own decisions on how to best cut their emissions.

A price on carbon works because it creates a powerful incentive to cut pollution, encouraging people and businesses to make different choices that save them money, like better insulating their homes or upgrading to more energy-efficient equipment.

There are also long-term financial benefits of transitioning to a cleaner economy, and many benefits that may flow from new technologies and innovations that are driven by carbon pricing. As some of Canada's largest employers have pointed out, putting a price on carbon pollution is just good business. It is already helping to build a clean growth economy and make Canadian businesses more innovative and more competitive.

Canada's five major banks, along with many companies in the consumer goods, energy, and resource development sectors, support putting a price on carbon, as do members of the Carbon Pricing Leadership Coalition, which includes 32 national and subnational governments, 150 businesses, and 67 strategic partners working to support and accelerate carbon pricing around the world.

Canada is creating the business environment that will strengthen the growth of a clean economy. Canada already has many success stories of businesses that are innovating. For example, CarbonCure is a business that takes carbon dioxide that would otherwise pollute and adds it to concrete. The result is less climate pollution and stronger, greener concrete. It is a win-win. Solar Vision Inc. is a company based in Quebec that provides solar lighting technologies. Enerkem takes Edmonton non-recyclable waste and turns it into commonly used fuels and chemicals. Agrisoma Biosciences Inc. is a biotech firm based in Gatineau. It is expanding low-carbon options in the biofuel industry by turning seeds into jet fuel. These and other businesses like them see the opportunity for clean growth. They see that technology can be part of the climate solution and will also be profitable and a source of good jobs.

This is an area in which I have a reasonable amount of personal experience. Prior to running for office, I spent 20 years as a chief executive officer and an executive in the clean technology space in British Columbia.

In B.C., climate action that includes a price on pollution has never come at the expense of economic progress. In fact, just the opposite is true. Over the past decade, B.C.'s carbon tax has reduced emissions by between 5% and 15%. Meanwhile, provincial GDP grew by more than 17% in the same period. Further, B.C.'s price on carbon pollution has stimulated a robust, growing clean technology sector that now brings in an estimated $1.7 billion in annual revenue. The pricing of carbon pollution that was implemented through the leadership of former premier Gordon Campbell has resulted in B.C. having the largest and most robust clean tech hub in the country, and one of the most robust worldwide.

Similar results are being seen in California, where a cap-and-trade system has been reducing greenhouse gas emissions while fuelling one of the strongest economic growth rates in the United States. Sweden has one of the highest carbon prices in the world, and it is showing strong economic growth and falling emissions.

In 2017, B.C., Alberta, Ontario, and Quebec, the four provinces with carbon pollution pricing systems in place, were the top four performers in GDP growth across Canada. Obviously, that is the result of a number of factors, but pricing carbon is clearly one of them. Anyone who says carbon pricing hurts economies is not basing his or her argument on the evidence. Pricing pollution has a track record of success in Canada and all over the world. It helped us to tackle problems like acid rain while supporting clean growth and innovation. A price on carbon is already in effect in nearly half the world.

By giving businesses and households an incentive to innovate more and pollute less, we are fulfilling our commitment to invest in growth while respecting and helping to protect our environment. Even some members of the Conservative caucus agree. On B.C.'s price on pollution, the Conservative environment critic stated that British Columbia, “did the right thing”. On Manitoba's climate plan, which includes a price on pollution, the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa said, “I think it's a very, very smart plan.” The member for Wellington—Halton Hills said, “We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to both lower income taxes and clean up our environment through the pricing of carbon.”

Last week, Environment and Climate Change Canada released a report that provided further evidence of the economic and environmental opportunities associated with putting a price on carbon. The study found that carbon pricing would reduce carbon pollution by up to 90 million tonnes across Canada in 2022. That is like shutting down more than 20 coal-fired power plants. Carbon pricing will make a substantial contribution to Canada's 2030 target.

Carbon pricing alone will not get us there, and that is why our climate plan was designed to include a variety of other measures that work together with carbon pricing to reduce pollution. Our forecasts show that taken together, these policies are putting us on the right track. The report also found that GDP growth would remain strong with a nationwide price on carbon pollution. Canada's GDP is expected to grow by approximately 2% a year between now and 2022, with or without carbon pricing, and this finding does not include the huge economic opportunity associated with clean innovation.

Carbon pricing will help Canadian companies compete successfully in the global shift to cleaner growth, an opportunity the World Bank estimates to be worth $23 trillion globally between now and 2030. Canadian companies that develop new technologies or approaches will be able to tap into that massive opportunity.

When it costs more to pollute, fuel switching, energy efficiency, and clean technologies become more desirable and more valuable. Putting a price on carbon tells investors in Canada that getting serious about climate change is about getting serious about the transition toward a clean growth economy.

Given the challenge that climate change presents and the opportunities that pollution pricing creates, we are pleased to see that nearly every province has adopted carbon pricing systems.

We recognize that circumstances vary between provinces and territories. That is why the pan-Canadian framework gives the provinces and territories the flexibility to chose the pollution pricing system that works best for them. They can adopt a carbon pricing system like British Columbia and Alberta or a cap-and-trade system like Ontario.

To ensure that a national pollution pricing system can be implemented across the country, the government promised to set a regulated federal floor price on carbon. This system will apply to any province or territory that requests it or that does not create its own pollution pricing system that meets federal criteria.

Provinces and territories have until September 1, 2018, to confirm their carbon pricing approach. Wherever the federal carbon pricing system applies, the Government of Canada will return all direct revenue from the carbon price to the jurisdiction of origin.

More than 80% of Canadians already live in jurisdictions with carbon pricing in place. Our approach recognizes the actions already taken by B.C., Alberta, Ontario, and Quebec. These provinces use the revenues in a variety of ways. They can return money directly to households and businesses, cut taxes, or fund programs that reduce the costs of clean technology. It is no coincidence that those provinces had the strongest economic growth in the country last year.

Addressing climate change is the critical issue of our age. It is an environmental imperative from the perspective of ensuring the long-term health and strength of our natural ecosystems. It is an economic imperative from the perspective of creating an economy that can thrive and generate economic prosperity for Canadians as the world transitions to a lower carbon future. It is a moral imperative for all of us from the perspective of leaving a planet and a country in which our children and grandchildren can and will thrive.

With some good will, hard work, and co-operation, together we can ensure a safe and prosperous future for our children and grandchildren.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Madam Speaker, my riding is Kootenay—Columbia, which is located in British Columbia. We have had a carbon tax in place there for many years.

What we have been hearing today from our friends in the Conservative Party is that somehow this carbon tax is going to drive people into poverty. I wonder if the hon. member could talk about what the impacts of the federal carbon tax might be on British Columbians, and whether it is going to drive up prices everywhere and drive everyone into poverty.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, the member's question is an important one. It gives me an opportunity to speak directly to one of the myths the Conservative Party seems to be trying to put out there, which is there is no federal price on carbon pollution that will be in place in any jurisdiction that puts in place its own pricing system, such as British Columbia did.

British Columbia, through the leadership of Premier Gordon Campbell, put in place a price on carbon pollution in 2008. That price has escalated over time. He did that in a manner that redistributed the income through tax cuts and rebates to return the monies that were raised through the carbon tax. He not only used the carbon tax to incent people to make appropriate choices with respect to efficiency and reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but also to incent the development and the drive for innovative technologies that would do that.

As somebody who lived in the British Columbia clean tech sector for 20 years, I can say that it had an enormous impact on generating economic opportunity, in driving the development of a clean tech sector. It is the largest clean tech hub in Canada and employs many Canadians and many British Columbians in high-paying jobs, and is helping B.C. to actually make that transition toward a clean growth economy. It has done so in a manner that was sensitive to the needs of lower-income Canadians. It has done so in a manner that has led the world, and continues to be an important leader in Canada on this important issue.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Madam Speaker, the member and his government have said that British Columbians and Canadians should be applauding these high gas prices, but he knows very well, if he is listening to constituents, that British Columbians are groaning with these high gasoline prices. It has been 162.9 and there is talk about it going to $2, $3, and $4 a litre. The higher it goes, the more they applaud. How high would the member support the price of gasoline going for the purpose of forcing behavioural change? They have said numerous times that they want to force Canadians out of their cars. How high does the member want the price of gasoline to go to force people out of their cars?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. colleague, sometimes comments are made that just have no basis in fact. I would encourage the member to dig into what is happening with respect to gas prices in British Columbia if he has not done so. The increase in the price on carbon pollution that came in with the new government in British Columbia was 1¢ on a litre. The increase in gas prices that we have seen in the Lower Mainland, and I live in the Lower Mainland, had much more to do with the maintenance associated with a refinery shutdown. The member should make sure he gets his facts straight.

If we look at the record of the price on carbon pollution in B.C., which led the country, emissions between 2008 and 2015 were reduced directly as a result of a price on carbon pollution by 5% to 15% while the GDP of British Columbia grew by 17%. The record is clear. A price on carbon pollution does reduce emissions and it actually stimulates economic growth.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, the parliamentary secretary is extremely passionate about this particular file. One of the things we have seen time and again from the Conservatives is their insistence on talking about a price on carbon as though it is a price on consumption rather than what it really is, which is a price on pollution.

I wonder if the parliamentary secretary could comment on that and what he really sees as the end goal here, and what the objective of having a price on pollution really is.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, the focus of the pricing of carbon pollution is to actually incent choices that drive people toward more efficient use of hydrocarbon resources so that we will reduce our GHG emissions over time. It is an important piece of a broader approach to addressing climate change and to achieving our Paris targets. Carbon pricing, as members would have seen in the document that we released last week, would reduce GHG emissions by 2030 by between 80 and 90 megatonnes. That is out of approximately a 250 megatonne reduction that we need to meet in order to achieve our Paris targets. It is therefore a very important metric and is part of actually getting there, in addition to the phase-out of coal, methane regulations, low-carbon fuel standards, and building efficiency, etc.

If the Conservatives reject the market mechanism, which is carbon pricing, as part of an overall approach to this, and there are big emissions reductions associated with this, in the absence of doing this, how the heck are they going to achieve the Paris targets which they say they are committed to?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech.

Obviously, the NDP is in favour of the carbon tax and putting a price on pollution. This could be a very effective way of changing people's behaviour and our means of production. However, the Liberal government is not being consistent. The Liberals are saying that we need to put a price on pollution, but they are still giving oil and gas companies $1.6 billion a year in subsidies, even though they promised to put an end to that.

How can the government do both of these things at the same time?

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, I am aware that the New Democratic Party has been a long and consistent supporter of the pricing of carbon pollution and an active advocate of Canada actually making a significant contribution to this issue on the international stage.

With respect to fossil fuel subsidies, Canada has committed as part of the G20 to phase out direct fossil fuel subsidies. There were a number of measures that were taken in the last two budgets to do that. I would be more than happy to sit with my hon. colleague to talk about exactly his definition of fossil fuel subsidies. Certainly for direct fossil fuel subsidies that are specific to the oil and gas sector, whether they are tax related or non-tax related, there is a commitment on our part as well as on the part of all the G20 to phase those out.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Speaker, the hon. colleague said that the carbon tax was one tool to incent Canadians to make better decisions and choices. There are over 300 off-grid communities in Canada. We have colleagues here from the north. I spent a period of time in Yukon where we were paying anywhere from $8 to $11 for a jug of milk. These costs are incremental.

Communities and groups have the opportunity to make those decisions, but a large portion of those 300 communities that live off-grid is indigenous communities. They have no other choice. They have to use diesel for power and to heat their homes. I do not see anything in this carbon price that combats this.

What about those in areas who do not have the opportunity to pick and choose what they do? I would like to hear the hon. colleague's comment that.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Madam Speaker, we are cognizant particularly of some of the challenges in the north. Members would see in the pan-Canadian framework and in statements since that time that we are working with the territories to try to ensure the pricing of carbon pollution is done in a manner that is sensitive to the needs of the north and some of the issues that the member specifically talked about.

With respect to many of the indigenous communities that are primarily based on diesel at this point, a significant investment was made both in 2017 and in 2018 to ensure that over time we would move all of those communities off diesel.

Opposition Motion—Carbon PricingBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my esteemed colleagues, and I am sure they cannot wait to hear what I have to say. Let me begin by saying how very pleased I am to be sharing my time with my outstanding colleague from Vancouver East.

I am pleased to rise in the House once again to talk about a subject that means so much to me and is so crucial to those who will follow, as filmmaker Michel Brault would have said. Nothing is more important than figuring out what kind of environment, what kind of planet we will leave to future generations and our children.

The alarm was sounded years ago. Climate change is such a key issue that I have no doubt future generations will judge us as politicians on the basis of whether we do or do not rise to this challenge. It is a big one. The outcome could be disastrous. I know we do not want to engage in fearmongering or be unnecessarily alarmist, but all the projections, including those by scientists with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC, say that if we cannot prevent the earth's temperature from rising more than 2°C over the 1990 base year, the number of natural disasters will multiply. We will have massive flooding and drought, and people will become climate refugees. We are already talking about the asylum seekers knocking on our door. I think that is nothing compared to what could happen around the world if global warming becomes unstoppable and leads to climate extremes. In recent years, we have already seen the effects in Quebec, in Canada, and around the world.

If we do nothing, the situation will only get worse, and quickly. This is why, as New Democrats, as progressives, as environmentalists, we are in favour of putting a price on pollution. We support taxing carbon, which already happens in the majority of Canadian provinces. This is nothing new, and it is being done all over the world. Many experts have deemed the carbon tax an effective tool for changing the habits of businesses, corporations, individuals, and consumers. The goal is to transition from an economy that is dependent on fossil fuels to an economy that creates jobs in new sectors. Such sectors include renewable energies, green jobs, and more responsible energies that take the climate and the future of our planet into account.

We therefore heartily support the Liberal government's initiative to finally, after two and a half years, implement a carbon tax, as has been done in British Columbia, Alberta, Quebec, and Ontario with carbon exchanges. This is absolutely nothing revolutionary or new. This is not about upsetting people or causing prices for consumers to rise unduly; this is a tool. It is much like a mechanism for us to exert pressure, change habits, and move towards something that is greener and more responsible.

Personally, I think the Liberal government's initiative does not go far enough, and I am not the only one saying this. The price per tonne on greenhouse gas emissions is not high enough to change behaviours and reach our targets. Speaking of our targets, they are not nearly ambitious enough. I would remind the House that the Liberal government adopted the same targets as the previous Conservative government, and we think these do not go far enough. Despite such weak targets, I still do not think they will be met, even if we go ahead with this carbon pricing. I am not the only one saying so. The OECD and the UN agree, and both are very concerned about the Canadian plan in that regard. The commissioner of the environment right here in Canada thinks so too. She believes that the Liberal government is going to miss its 2020 and 2030 targets, and we see that as completely irresponsible.

Another thing that is irresponsible is the fearmongering the Conservatives are engaging in here with this motion, which would have us do absolutely nothing.

I would like to remind the House again today, as I did last week, that doing nothing has a cost as well. Doing nothing to combat climate change will cost individuals, families, and our society as a whole.

On that point, the national round table on the environment and the economy, a body created by the Conservative government, indicated in 2011 that the costs associated with natural disasters would increase from $5 billion a year to $43 billion a year by 2050. That is huge. That is a lot more than the extra penny or two we will pay here and there for goods and consumer products as individuals.

I think we have to be cognizant of the fact that there are costs associated with doing nothing. In recent years, we have seen an increase in extreme weather events. We could call them natural disasters, but I prefer to call them extreme weather events, because we will be told that we have always had natural disasters, that it changes nothing, and that the climate has always changed. Very well, but at present, things are happening much more quickly and what we call extreme weather events or natural disasters are occurring increasingly more often. The average number of natural disasters in Canada has doubled over the past 30 years, and there is a cost associated with that.

From 1983 to 2004, insured losses due to natural disasters cost on average $373 million a year. However, in the decade from 2005 to 2015, the average annual losses more than tripled to $1.2 billion a year. We, the taxpayers, pay for that.

The federal government helps the provinces and territories recover from disasters, such as the Fort McMurray fire a few years ago, because there is a financial assistance agreement in place for catastrophes. The federal government paid out an average of $54 million in 1970. From 1995 to 2004, it paid out $291 million a year, and from 2005 to 2014, it paid out $410 million a year. We went from $50 million a year to $400 million a year just in costs covered by the federal government to help the provinces and territories affected by extreme climate or natural disasters.

Therefore, saying that we can continue to do nothing is not only irresponsible towards our children and future generations, but is also irresponsible in terms of taxes and the economy if we want to control public spending.

The federal fund that I mentioned earlier has paid out more over the past six years than it did in the previous 40 years. The increase in the cost of this fund over the past 20 years can be attributed directly to the increase in the number and intensity of natural disasters. Yes, there have always been floods, forest fires, and similar natural phenomena, but they are becoming more frequent and more severe.

I am going to quote from a document published by Équiterre, a Quebec environmentalist group that does a lot of work in this area and provides some fascinating information. Here is what it has to say:

We often hear that fighting climate change is expensive. However, many studies carried out by major economic players regularly prove the opposite. One after another, insurance companies, the World Bank, the International Energy Agency, TD Bank, and other organizations have demonstrated that fighting climate change is not only necessary and urgent, but also makes good economic sense.

What are the consequences of climate change? There will be more extreme weather events, and they will have an impact on public health spending, agricultural productivity, financial coverage and risk, wear and tear on infrastructure, and general energy costs for heating and cooling.

Since it is 2018, I think we absolutely need to take action and take this issue seriously. We need to study the phenomenon as a whole in order to determine our responsibility as lawmakers, so that we can take the best possible measures to ensure that Canada and Quebec pull their weight in the global fight against climate change. The future of our planet depends on it, and so do our economy, our jobs, our deficits, and our public funds. We absolutely need to take action, and I urge the Liberal government to go even further.