House of Commons Hansard #322 of the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-71.

Topics

Human Organ TraffickingPetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise to present two petitions. The first one is exactly the same as many colleagues have presented this morning, dealing with the appalling trafficking in human organs. Petitioners are asking this House to support both Bill C-350 and Bill S-240 to put an end to the trafficking of human organs. The evidence of the involuntary taking of organs from living persons for sale is something that I think offends the conscience of every Canadian, and I hope the House will respond favourably to this petition.

KurdistanPetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, the second petition is an e-petition, and over 500 people have signed it. It focuses on the Government of Turkey and its treatment of the Kurdish people. It asks for the Government of Canada to stand in solidarity with the Kurdish people in holding the Government of Turkey to account, stopping the bombing of Afrin, which is a Kurdish city in Rojava. Because of that bombing, there are now over 100,000 displaced persons. This is a growing catastrophe, and they call on the Government of Canada to make their views known to the Government of Turkey.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand at this time.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Geoff Regan

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Firearms ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Regina—Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

moved that Bill C-71, an act to amend certain acts and regulations in relation to firearms, be read the third time and passed.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to open third reading debate in the House today on Bill C-71, an important piece of legislation in support of public safety and the ability of law enforcement to investigate gun crimes, while at the same time being reasonable and respectful toward law-abiding firearms owners and businesses.

Following years of declining crime rates in Canada, a number of critical statistics concerning firearms pivoted in 2013 to show a significant increase over subsequent years. In 2013, there were 211 attempted murders involving guns; in 2016, there were 290. In 2013, there were 134 gun homicides; in 2016, there were 223. For armed robbery, the numbers jumped from 2,096 in 2013 to 2,870 in 2016. According to the most recent data from Statistics Canada that became available just this summer, between 2013 and 2017 overall offences involving guns increased by 44%. It is this troubling trend that Bill C-71 would help to address, hand in hand with our investment of $327 million over five years, rising to $100 million every year thereafter, to intensify our battle against guns and gangs.

That new funding will be aimed at three key goals: first, increasing the capacity and the effectiveness of the Canada Border Services Agency to interdict gun smuggling at the border; second, bolstering the work of the RCMP to identify and take down illegal weapons trafficking operations; and third, to support provinces, municipalities and local law enforcement in their efforts to disrupt gangs, prosecute offenders, prevent young people from being drawn into gangs in the first place and to help them exit that destructive lifestyle. This initiative has been very well received by our provincial and municipal counterparts and many stakeholders, like those from all across the country who attended our guns and gangs summit last spring in Ottawa. Discussions are well advanced on how to make the best use of the new federal dollars. The new Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction will be rolling out the details in the weeks ahead.

In the meantime, we continue to advance Bill C-71. The public safety committee of the House studied this bill very carefully, and during its consideration it accepted amendments from all of the major parties. I would like to extend my thanks to the committee members who, as always, conducted a very thorough study of the subject matter and sent the bill back to the House in improved form.

During the last election, the Liberal Party ran on very specific campaign promises relating to firearms. Bill C-71 deals with those promises that require legislative change. They were as follows: first, repeal the changes made by Bill C-42 that allowed restricted and prohibited weapons to be freely transported without a permit; second, put decision-making about weapons restrictions back into the hands of police and not politicians; third, require enhanced background checks for everyone seeking to purchase a handgun or other restricted firearm; fourth, require purchasers of firearms to show a licence when they buy a gun and require all sellers of firearms to confirm that the licence is in fact valid before completing the sale; and finally, require firearms vendors to keep records of all firearms inventories and sales to assist police in investigating firearms trafficking and other gun crimes. We are delivering on each of these promises to make our communities safer and to support law enforcement while not targeting law-abiding firearms owners.

First, on the issue of enhanced background checks, currently when deciding whether to issue a possession and acquisition licence, a PAL, the law requires the chief firearms officer of a province or territory to consider the past five years of an applicant's history to determine if their past activities or behaviours indicate a public safety risk.

Bill C-71 proposes to eliminate that five-year limitation. That idea stems from a private member's bill introduced by former Conservative cabinet minister James Moore in 2003. Upon tabling his private member's bill, Mr. Moore told this chamber the following:

Currently the Firearms Act says that if in the past five years a person has committed a violent crime and has been convicted of a violent crime or of threatening to commit a violent crime, that person cannot apply to own a firearm for five years.

My private member's bill does not say after five years: it says if a person has ever committed a violent crime in their life never does that person get to own a gun. If a person has ever beat his wife or ever committed rape or ever committed murder and is released from jail, never in his life does that person get to own a gun....

Those are the words of the hon. James Moore.

Mr. Moore's bill obviously did not pass, because today the Firearms Act still says five years. Bill C-71, however, will remove that time limitation, as well as expand the kinds of things that the CFO can consider when deciding whether to issue a licence or not. There are, for example, explicit references in the law to gender-based violence. Thanks to amendments made by the committee, which were adopted unanimously, the CFO would also be able to consider an applicant's online behaviour as well. There appears to be broad and multipartisan support for these measures on background checks.

For indigenous hunters who engage in the traditional practices of hunting, the aboriginal peoples of Canada adaptations regulations will continue to apply. The regulations allow an applicant to ask an elder or community leader for a recommendation to go to the provincial chief firearms officer to confirm the importance to the applicant of their engaging in traditional hunting practices, which are, of course, a section 35 treaty right. Therefore, we can see the legal framework here attempting to make sure that the appropriate indigenous considerations are taken fully into account.

Secondly, on the issue of transporting firearms, specifically restricted and prohibited firearms, before former bill C-42 made changes to the Firearms Act in 2015, the owner of a restricted or prohibited weapon was required to get an authorization to transport it, what is known as an ATT, every time the owner took that firearm anywhere. The Harper government loosened that restriction by attaching an automatic authorization to transport to every possession and acquisition licence for the purpose of transporting the firearm home from a store or to an approved shooting range or to a port of entry or a gunsmith or a gun show. Because the ATT was automatic and applied to numerous different destinations, it became virtually impossible for police to detect the transportation of restricted or prohibited weapons for illegal purposes.

Bill C-71 seeks to narrow and clarify the scope of the ATT rules. An ATT would continue to be included automatically with a PAL licence to transport restricted or prohibited weapons to a certified shooting range, but beyond that, a separate ATT would be required. This would assist law enforcement without impacting gun owners in any major way. In addition, we will work to ensure that the firearms centre is properly staffed to issue ATTs as required, and we will provide an electronic portal where firearms owners can apply online and get their ATTs in a matter of just a few minutes. If people need to go to a gunsmith after they have been at firing ranges, they would also be able to get an ATT on their smart phones. Therefore, the objective here is to make sure that the service is efficient.

Third, on the classification practices, it is of course up to Parliament, up to the House of Commons and the Senate, as a matter of law, to determine how firearms are classified. For years Parliament has identified and defined three categories: non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited. Parliament is always free to change those categories if it sees fit. It can change the characteristics that apply to each of the three categories. That is Parliament's sovereign right.

Administratively, after the definitions have been set in law by Parliament, it should be firearms experts who make the technical determination as to which firearm fits into which category. That is a factual, technical function, and it should not be politicized. Bill C-71 makes that point very clear. It grandfathers those individuals who may be adversely affected by the previous government's decisions to allow the cabinet to contradict the experts and assign a lower category to a particular firearm, contrary to the definitions in the Criminal Code.

Let me turn next to the question of licence verification. Currently in Canada, if people want to buy ammunition for a non-restricted firearm, they must show the vendor a valid firearms licence. It might surprise many people to know that they do not currently have to show a valid firearms licence for purchasing a non-restricted firearm.

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10:25 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Tell the truth, Ralph, you'll feel better. What kind of rubbish is that. You know better than that.

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10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

This formerly mandatory practice was changed—

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10:25 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Order. I want to remind the member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands that if he wants to contribute to the discussion, he will have an opportunity to do that during questions and comments or during other speeches. Therefore, I would ask that he provide the respect the minister deserves.

The hon. minister.

Firearms ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, the practice was changed by the previous Conservative government in 2012. Actually the law was changed so that this became a voluntary provision. The law now says the vendor simply has to have “no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.” In other words, they do not have to ask. They can ask, but they do not have to ask.

Of course, vendors have that option, and all the reputable ones that I know actually ask the question to determine that the licence is still valid. Most businesses probably behave in that way. It is just common sense. However, if someone without a PAL is looking to get a shotgun, for example, that person is more likely to try to buy it from a vendor known not to run the licence check.

Bill C-71 would make it an offence not to verify the licence. This is not only important to stop those who have never had a licence from acquiring a non-restricted firearm. If a gun shop is dealing with a regular customer, the sales clerk might be tempted not to check the licence that he or she has probably seen many times before on previous transactions. However, if that customer had recently lost their PAL due to a court order, the sales clerk would have no way to know that unless he or she actually checked its validity with the registrar. Customer service will be important so that verification can be done in a quick and efficient manner.

On firearms record-keeping, Bill C-71 proposes to make record-keeping of non-restricted firearms a requirement for all businesses. With proper authorization, police will then be able to better trace the origins of firearms found at crime scenes. This was a requirement for businesses from 1979 until 2005. It is also a standard requirement across virtually all of the United States. It is simply a good business practice commonly applied already by major retailers like Cabela's, Canadian Tire and many others.

Some people have suggested that this will amount to a new long-gun registry. Of course, for such an argument to be logical, it would also mean that Canada first had a long-gun registry back in 1979. Obviously, that would be nonsense. To make this point crystal clear, the Conservatives moved an amendment in the committee, which reads as follows: “For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to permit or require the registration of non-restricted firearms.” That amendment was supported unanimously by all members of the public safety committee, who were in total agreement that nothing in Bill C-71 remotely resembles a long-gun registry. That point is now beyond all doubt.

In addition to meeting our platform commitments, we are currently reviewing other options to ensure that firearms do not fall into the wrong hands. For example, we are examining the regulations relating to the safe storage of firearms, especially after hours on commercial premises. Firearms theft from such premises have been steadily rising, and we should try to prevent that trend from getting worse.

We are examining firearms advertising regulations to see if they are appropriate to prohibit the glorification of violence and anti-personnel kinds of paramilitary conduct. We are examining the issue of whether there should be some flagging system with respect to large transactions or bolt sales that may trigger questions on the part of police forces. We are also examining the possibility of enabling medical professionals to flag when they feel a patient may pose a significant risk to the safety of themselves or others.

I would point out that in 2012, Quebec passed what is known as Anastasia's law, which banned firearms in places like schools and relieved physicians of their usual obligations with respect to doctor-patient confidentiality when they felt that someone under their care who owned a firearm might be a danger to themselves or to others. It is a concept that other provinces may wish to examine, and it will be discussed at federal, provincial and territorial meetings this fall.

I will be working with the new Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction on these supplementary measures as well. As members know, the new minister has also been mandated to lead an examination of a ban on handguns and assault weapons in Canada, while not impeding the lawful use of firearms by Canadians. That consultation will be going forward this fall.

When taken together, this strategy represents a responsible firearms package that will help make our communities safer. It will help police forces investigate the illegal use of firearms. At the same time, these measures taken together will not overburden legitimate firearms owners in exercising their legitimate rights.

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10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I would like to remind members again that when someone has the floor that person deserves the respect of the House. If individuals have anything to say then they should be rising for questions and comments.

The hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles.

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10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you for your speech, Mr. Minister.

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10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I would remind the member to address the Chair, not the minister.

Firearms ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to point out to the minister that the basic premise of Bill C-71 has been flawed from the outset. Rising crime rates have nothing to do with the hunting and sport shooting community. We all know this will do nothing to combat gang crime.

I do have another fairly complicated point I want to raise, and it has to do with discrimination. This bill is blatantly discriminatory. When it comes to security, I think gun control should apply to all people.

Right now, special provisions apply to indigenous peoples. The minister talked about it just now, but there is no mention of it in the bill, and it was not discussed in committee. I know it has to do with section 35. Nevertheless, the point is that all people use firearms, yet indigenous and non-indigenous individuals are treated differently. When it comes to firearms, there should be one set of rules for everyone. That is why indigenous individuals told the committee that Bill C-71 is irrelevant to them.

How can the minister think it is okay for an indigenous person to do whatever he or she wants with a firearm even as the government tightens the rules for hunters and sport shooters?

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10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, the source of the issue the hon. gentleman refers to is section 35 of the Constitution of Canada.

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10:35 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Madam Speaker, the minister mentioned that gun owners would be able to use an electronic system to obtain an authorization to transport firearms that were not already automatically authorized.

However, one concern that came up repeatedly in committee is that certain events, like gun shows, could cause a spike in demand.

In light of this government's track record with electronic systems, such as the notorious Phoenix pay system, can the minister guarantee us that the system will work well from the moment it is launched, so that people can apply in an orderly fashion and receive their authorizations within a reasonable time frame?

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10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, I note that the hon. gentleman raised issues similar to this at the committee level, and there were in fact amendments made to ensure that we were accommodating the very point he is raising now.

It is incumbent upon the government and the administrators of the program to monitor customer service very carefully to make sure that the services are being delivered in an efficient and timely way, so that those who are simply pursuing their legitimate and proper rights under the law can do so without being inconvenienced. That is certainly our objective.

In subsequent days, if they identify difficulties with the administration, or service levels or standards that are not sufficient, I encourage members of Parliament to draw that to the attention of the government, and we will do our level best to make sure the service levels are proper.

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10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Madam Speaker, my concerns are around the whole question of timeliness and cost for this program as well. The member for Regina—Wascana indicated that there will now be a requirement that ATTs be requested. They have a number of different circumstances in which that would be the case, yet he says this will not be impeding lawful gun owners. The number of additional steps they need to take is impeding them. This is what is so irritating. It does not change any of the crime scenarios that we are facing in Canada.

If all of these extra processes are going to be put in place and done in a timely manner, will the minister tell the law-abiding gun owners of Canada what it is going to cost them to call in or use that service over and over again? It is going to cost them money to have that bureaucracy set up. What is it going to cost Canadians and law-abiding gun owners to get their ATTs?

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10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, the provisions in Bill C-71 are modest and reasonable, and they do not entail a significant new cost. In fact, the hon. member is referring to provisions related not to all firearms but only prohibited and restricted weapons. It is just those two categories, not all firearms.

As well, the ATT will continue to be automatic, attached to the PAL. Whenever the transportation is to a certified gun range, that includes 95% of the transportation activity. Therefore, the amount of change here from the perspective of the firearm owner is very small.

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10:40 a.m.

Alaina Lockhart Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Tourism, Official Languages and La Francophonie, Lib.

Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for taking the time today to define the challenges regarding gun violence in Canada and providing us with the reasoning behind this bill. I represent a largely rural riding, Fundy Royal, and have spent considerable time talking to my constituents and other stakeholders about this bill, providing feedback throughout the process.

Could the minister tell this House how he evaluated the feedback he received from members who represent rural areas, and how it was incorporated in this legislation?

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10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, that input and feedback from rural Canadians and from members of Parliament who represent rural Canadians, was extremely important. The very definition of the platform commitment from three years ago was to accomplish objectives related to public safety without imposing unreasonable burdens upon legitimate firearms owners.

One of the significant demonstrations of that is the very point I made in referring to the previous question, where a restricted or a prohibited weapon is being transported to a shooting range. This accounts for 95% of the transportation activity, and that authorization will continue to be included in the PAL itself. There will be no incremental change or burden with respect to firearms owners.

That is one illustration among several where the views and concerns of rural Canadians, hunters, farmers, fishermen and so forth have been taken into account.

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10:40 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Madam Speaker, my riding of Kootenay—Columbia often gets referred to as the Serengeti of Canada. We are so fortunate that every predator-prey relationship is still intact in my riding. Hunting is very much a part of everyday life in my riding.

The kinds of concerns I have heard from people like Richard, for example, relate to whether there is anything in this bill that will add to the administration time or cost for your average everyday hunter.

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10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, to my knowledge, there is not. When it comes to service delivery in the verification of a licence, for example, it is extremely important that the firearms program be able to respond to questions in a quick, efficient and timely manner.

I would encourage all members of Parliament, if they discover circumstances in which their constituents are not receiving that timely service in an efficient way, to draw that to the attention of the government. We will do our very best to make sure that the standards are improving.

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10:45 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Madam Speaker, maybe my memory is just too good but I remember early in my political career that the minister led the government's attack on Prairie farmers when they tried to sell their own grain, which led to them serving time in jail.

I am just wondering if it is a coincidence that the minister has been put in charge of this attack on legitimate firearms owners. Is he going to use those same tactics of using multiple government departments and agencies against legitimate firearms owners the way that he did against farmers in western Canada?

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10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Madam Speaker, the hon. gentleman was wrong when he raised that issue 20 years ago and he remains wrong today.