House of Commons Hansard #12 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, the many issues to come out of Afghanistan, including its refugees, are of a great, serious nature. We recognize the value of having committees. I stood up to speak to our standing committees. The official opposition is spearheading this through this particular motion, yet I would have rather have seen a negotiation take place among the different parties to ensure that it was depoliticized, that the politics were taken out of it. I think we owe that to members of the forces and those who have been engaged in what has been taking place virtually since 2001.

I wonder if the member could provide his thoughts, at least at the onset going into this, on whether we should be trying to depoliticize this so we can get right to the facts and have the necessary dialogue. Maybe at some other time in the future, if the opposition wants to make it political, they can do so. What are his thoughts?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Madam Speaker, Canadians elected us to come here to hold the government to account. That is exactly what we are doing here today. We are presenting ideas. We have presented this idea to have a special committee to look at this very important issue, an issue that he himself is saying is very important. We are just debating it.

All members of this House have the opportunity to discuss this issue, debate it, and vote on it. That is how this place works, and that is why we have put this forward. This is not only to look back at the lessons learned, the mistakes that may have been made or that were made, or the fact that they decided to hold an election when they should have been taking action, but also to look forward.

It is not very often that we, in this place, discuss an issue as vital and as important as this. I can truly say that this is a matter of life and death. That is why this is so important, and that is why we need this committee.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Edmonton Mill Woods for honouring the soldier and person he knew who passed in this very solemn theatre of war. In my own reflections, I am thinking about Hamilton's own Mark Anthony Graham. He was a larger-than-life Olympian who served in the 1st Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment of the Canadian Armed Forces. I am also reminded of the casualties of war and who ultimately pays the price for war.

I ask for those on the front lines and all the civilians who have been left without any choice in the results of the Afghan war, how does the member think donor governments should interact with the Taliban authority when it comes to international assistance? No western government, including Canada's, is likely to offer diplomatic legitimacy to the Taliban anytime soon. What suggestions does the hon. member for Edmonton Mill Woods have in terms of the pragmatic problem of getting food, medicine and shelter to the people who need it most?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Madam Speaker, I would much rather have Canada work with NGOs that understand how to help people on the ground. One other point the member made that is very important is that this really is about people on the ground. I know the Liberals throw around this number, and they made a big announcement that 40,000 Afghans would be brought to Canada, but they have barely scratched the surface on that. They have not taken action to bring them here and they do not have a plan or a timeline.

The remaining people in Afghanistan are not just a number. The people in my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods sat with me and talked about their brothers, fathers and mothers: people who are still in Afghanistan and badly need our help. We need to be there for them.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his continued advocacy, especially when it comes to refugees.

We have both had experience going through the first group of Afghans who came to Canada: the Sikhs and the Hindus. People who sponsored one of those families, as I did, saw the bureaucratic backlog and what it did. Right now there is a backlog of 1.8 million that is stopping families from being reunited and from bringing those refugees to Canada. It goes to show that our NGOs and our veterans are the ones who stepped up when the government failed to serve those who served this country.

I want to give my hon. colleague a little more time to talk about our older brother, the one we miss so dearly and who many in the House looked to as a mentor: Manmeet Singh Bhullar.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Madam Speaker, the legacy of Manmeet Singh Bhullar will truly be how much he wanted to bring so many of the Afghan religious minorities to Canada. He literally stayed up day and night, talking to them on Zoom during the night to learn more about their situation. He worked to get some of them, very few, to India and then worked on a process to get them here. Very few of them have made it here.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, on July 14, I sat on a Zoom call with a former Canadian interpreter from Helmand Province. On that call were several of my colleagues, including the hon. members for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound and York—Simcoe. It was an emotional call. It was an interpreter who was pleading for his life. The Taliban were 500 metres away, and they were hunting those who had helped allied forces during the Afghanistan war. I was in my constituency office, and after that call I actually had tears streaming down my face. My staff asked me what had happened. I said I had just heard the most horrific pleas that I could ever hear.

From that time, we saw Afghanistan descend into chaos. We all know the stories about what happened at the airport, but through it all there were Canadians and Canadian veterans. In my former role as critic for Veterans Affairs I was dealing directly with those veterans, and being supplied with hundreds of names of those whose lives were in jeopardy in Afghanistan and who had helped our Canadian Forces. I was supplying those names directly to the minister at the time. I was getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from Afghanistan. Somehow my cellphone number got out. The callers were begging for help, and all I could do was supply their names to the minister directly. I thank the minister for taking my calls and being there at a time when people needed him the most.

There were veterans, volunteers, NGOs and individuals like Zarmina and Khalil Nekzai in my riding of Barrie—Innisfil. Zarmina had gone through the situation with the Taliban earlier and had escaped Afghanistan in advance of Taliban rule. She told me she came out on a donkey to another country and found a life in Canada. She had given back to young girls in Afghanistan by trying to educate them and trying to get them to play hockey. She came into my office many times crying, begging and pleading for any way that we could help those hockey girls of Kabul to come to Canada, and asking that we do everything we could.

We saw the descending chaos and it should have been no surprise to anyone here, even the government, that the Americans had already concluded that they were going to leave Afghanistan in September. There should have been better planning. We need to know this, and this is why this committee is so important. We need to find out what happened from the time the Americans announced that they were going to depart Afghanistan to the time that Afghanistan actually fell. What were the actions of the government at that time? What were the Liberals doing other than preparing for an election that nobody wanted?

I will remind the House that at the time it was not just that Afghanistan was falling: Wildfires in B.C. were decimating the interior of British Columbia. The priority of the government at that time was to call an election, when it should have been dealing with all of these other issues. The desperation, the despair and the anxiety that were coming to my office, and I am sure the offices of colleagues in the House, were incredible to deal with. In fact, I did not start my campaign until two and a half weeks after the election was called because this was my focus.

I was supplying as many names as I could. People not just in my riding, but all across Canada and around the world were giving me names to get to the Liberal government so they could be helped in Afghanistan before everything fell.

There were others. There was the Veterans Transition Network, which included Corey Shelson, a former army officer who served in Afghanistan. There were people on the ground in Afghanistan: Canadian Armed Forces veterans who were desperately putting their lives in jeopardy trying to help people at that time. Through the whole process, as we have heard several examples of today, many Canadian military personnel were on the ground; however, diplomatic officials and consular officials had been pulled back. There was nowhere for these people to go.

In fact, I have heard stories. I have emails that I will read into the record about some of the desperate attempts by people to get to the airport and what they were being told by the government about where they needed to be. In one case, people were told to go to a hotel and that there would be Canadian officials there. There were no Canadian officials there. People were risking their lives going from the safe house that they were in to this hotel, and when they got to the hotel American forces were there and they were told, “No, we're not taking any Canadians at this point.” Where were the Canadian officials? They were nowhere to be found. In one case, the 82-year-old father of a lady in my riding left that hotel only to be beaten up by members of the Taliban because they figured out why he went there. We need to know why these types of things happened.

Another email I got stated, “Hi there, I've emailed IRCC dozens of times and now I'm asking for your help. Please, please don't let me get killed. Please help me get my family out of Afghanistan. I dedicated my life for Canada and helping any Canadian that crossed my path. Please help me.” Another said, “How long do we have to stay at this airport? This is two days. There's no water. There's no bathroom, additional security. We did not sleep and we will be dying with the situation. We are close to this gate. Where are the Canadians to help us?”

I cannot say what he says next, but those are the instructions that he received. This is why we have to get to the bottom of where those failures were. Why was the government too distracted at the time to help not just those Canadians who were still in Afghanistan, but those who were vulnerable?

The instructions people received read, “You are receiving this message from Global Affairs Canada, Consular Services with regards to an assisted departure from Afghanistan. Please find attached a letter of facilitation which may assist you to clear checkpoints to access the Karzai Airport. We also remind you of the following guidance for the airport: Please proceed to the north gate.”

We know the stories of the north gate. There were people getting hung up in barbed wire, and people being shot because they were being identified by the Taliban at that time.

The instructions continued, “Wear red if you have it.” That identified people as Canadian. That is exactly what was going on. The instructions that were coming in were putting our people in peril. They also instructed, “Make your way to the front of the crowd and identify yourself as Canadian.” How could they do that when there were thousands of people who were doing the same thing?

I think of Sam, whose family was there. They were told to go to the airport. They were given notice that there was a flight available to them at the airport, and they had two hours to get to the airport. They sent me the video of themselves driving to the airport. People were being shot in front of them and they were driving over dead bodies. They felt so at risk that they did not make their flight, but turned back and went home to a safe place.

Speaking of safe places, we know that our Canadian interpreters, those who are vulnerable, had safe houses, but they were not being funded by the government. They were being funded by private organizations and private donors raising billions of dollars. At a time when those safe houses needed to be extended, what did the Liberals do, despite being asked to fund them? The government did not cancel them, but it did not fund the extension of them. This means that right now those interpreters and their families whose houses have been blown up by the Taliban have nowhere to go. They are living out in the open in the middle of winter, being hunted down by the Taliban.

We need to know why these types of things could happen. The government members can gloss over it all they want. They can paint as rosy a picture as they want. However, Afghan Canadians and others trying to help those who were vulnerable, those interpreters and others who helped us, know the truth: that it was a government that was in chaos in dealing with this situation.

We need to know, through the proposed committee, why this situation happened so that it never happens again. We also need to better understand how we can help those who are still struggling to leave Afghanistan to come to this country.

I know the government talks about politicization and the politics of this, but since when is demanding answers and getting answers politicization of an issue? That is what Afghans and Afghan Canadians expect us to do, that is what our veterans expect us to do and damn it we are going to do it.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

As a little reminder, the member should mind his words.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, no one in the Conservative opposition cares more or has more compassion for what is taking place in Afghanistan, whether we mean today, yesterday or back in 2001. No one owns a monopoly on the issue. We all care about the types of stories the member just finished raising in the House.

Where we seem to differ is that the government is concerned about the confidentiality of secret documents, which is apparently something the Conservative Party does not care about. We do care about certain things that cannot become public information. The opposition knows that. That is why there was an agreement between Stephen Harper, Michael Ignatieff and the Bloc party back in 2010.

Whatever happened to the principle of ensuring secrecy? Why will the Conservatives not negotiate with the government so we can protect Canadian—

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

The hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, given the context of the motion, it speaks to exactly the issue the member is concerned about. There is the potential to redact documents. In fact, the parliamentary law clerk would review all of the documents before this committee.

I do question why the hon. member is concerned. Why is there concern from the government over getting to the bottom of what happened? Why are they concerned about accountability? Why are they concerned about the truth of what happened?

As I said, Afghan Canadians know the truth and veterans and the service organizations that have tried to help Afghan nationals during this unbelievably chaotic time know the truth as well. It is therefore time that Canadians know the truth that their government failed not just the people of Afghanistan, but also Canadians.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, some of the messages the member read out are not dissimilar to the ones I have received. The messages from IRCC and GAC in response really shocked me, because essentially they were stock answers that told people to please go away. They did not provide a resolution or an approach for how they could get to safety. Many people who received documentation from the government were not recognized at the airport and were turned away. Many wrote to GAC in the special email that was given to them, only for it to fall into a deep hole and never see daylight because they never got a response.

In looking forward toward action, will the member support a call for the government to issue temporary resident permits to bring people to safety and to waive the refugee determination requirements so that people can get the refugee status they need to get to safety, given there are no UNHCR offices available? Finally—

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

The hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, one thing haunts me the most, and still does every single day: How many of those names I gave belong to people who are no longer alive? I do not know. I am not in the government and I was not in the government. All I can do is pass those names on to the minister and his staff. I acknowledge that they were well received, but I just do not know.

The challenge right now in Afghanistan is making sure that we get visas for the people. It is even difficult for Afghan nationals to get passports at this point because they are being pegged. They are being identified by the Taliban as wanting to leave the country. Then we have our partners in Pakistan and elsewhere who on some days keep the borders closed so that Afghan nationals cannot get into the country.

The bottom line is that unless Afghan nationals are out of the country, they cannot come to Canada. There is no easy pathway for them. The committee could study how to make things easier to make that happen.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for his emotional speech. I have been in Kabul many times and have sent members of the RCMP into the area to rebuild, build on law enforcement and build schools for children. I have seen young girls laughing and having fun.

Does the member really see a sense of urgency here, knowing how brutal the Taliban is? Why are we not acting on this right now?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Speaker, do members know where I get the sense of urgency the member speaks about? It is from those who previously escaped Taliban rule. They know how difficult this is going to be for young girls. They know how difficult this is going to be for vulnerable communities and ethnic minorities. They know their lives are at risk. That is what makes this urgent, and that is what makes this committee so relevant to the situation.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Hull—Aylmer Québec

Liberal

Greg Fergus LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the President of the Treasury Board

Madam Speaker, I just want to mention that I will share my time with the member for Scarborough Centre, a colleague I respect deeply, like very much and have had the pleasure of knowing for six years now.

Before I begin my speech, I would like to congratulate you, Madam Speaker, on your appointment to the position of Assistant Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons. I appreciate the dignity and wisdom you bring to the role of House of Commons referee.

I rise in the House today to discuss the opposition's proposals with respect to the situation in Afghanistan. Their goal is to determine how we can help Afghan refugees. This is a very serious matter.

Where to begin? First of all, this is a life and death issue. As several members have already mentioned, it is a real shame the Conservatives are making political hay out of this situation. It is outrageous.

I think that all members of the House want us to reach out to the Afghans who are at risk in Afghanistan because of the Taliban government, and I would venture to say that the vast majority of Canadians want that as well. We want to help those Afghans, especially the men and women who helped us and our allies’ troops, who have been trying to bring stability to that country, which unfortunately has been torn apart by civil war and Taliban forces.

No one is going to tell me that the Taliban can improve the well-being of the Afghan people. It is unfortunately a government run by radical Islamist forces that completely distort the tenets of this major religion. As a politician, I have had the pleasure of learning more about this religion, as I have gotten to know my Muslim constituents.

The government, the Canadian Armed Forces and Global Affairs Canada have been working very hard to ensure that we can welcome those who helped us in Afghanistan. That is remarkable.

As a government, we made a solemn commitment to bring 40,000 Afghan refugees to Canada. We have made a lot of progress despite some very difficult situations. Almost 4,000 people have regained their freedom here in Canada. We are working very hard on this.

Tomorrow, another 500 Afghan refugees will arrive safely in Canada on two chartered flights. As part of a commitment we made, we are also working with the various governments to bring another 9,000 Afghan refugees to Canada.

Some progress has been made, although the situation is far from ideal. Very few credible individuals really understood how quickly the Afghan government collapsed over the summer. In spite of that, we have made a serious commitment to put in our share of the effort and bring these people home.

I cannot begin to describe how harmful the Taliban is to women's rights in Afghanistan. The situation that Afghans, especially women and girls, are facing is absolutely terrible. When I was younger, I studied international relations in university and I remember that we looked at what was happening in Afghanistan. It was horrifying.

I think Canada had the right to intervene and to be part of the coalition forces that went into Afghanistan to stabilize the country and form a democratic government accountable to Afghans. Unfortunately, that was not enough.

The Canadian Armed Forces has been out of Afghanistan for a long time now. Several governments have had the opportunity to carry on the work and do their part to welcome Afghan refugees. Everyone tried, but no government's commitment was as firm and ambitious as the one we made last summer. We made that promise to Afghans and to Canadians, and we will keep it.

We are keeping up our efforts in Afghanistan to bring these refugees here. We will be there for vulnerable Afghans. We will be there to repay the Afghans for their service in support of the Canadian Armed Forces stationed there. We will be there for our translators, our interpreters and the people who forged connections between our military personnel and the Afghan people. We really want to help those who need it most, and we will be there for them.

It is important to look beyond the creation of another committee, that is, a special committee that would look at these matters. I think we are all very aware of the workload that we have. We do not need a new committee. There are already committees where these issues can be addressed. We have the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration and the Standing Committee on National Defence. Let us use the tools already available to us instead of just empty rhetoric.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Madam Speaker, the Liberal member said that the government will be there for the Afghan people. The problem is not that it is there now; the problem is that it was not there for Afghans. He said this is a matter of life and death, which is true. I know people in this situation who were killed. I helped one couple, that last ones to get on a flight out of that airport to come to Canada, but someone else lost their daughter.

I would also like to point out that the government announced that 40,000 people could come to Canada while it simultaneously closed its embassy. It therefore could not help those people. Was the government so concerned about and preoccupied by the election that it could not help and save lives?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to acknowledge my friend from the opposition, with whom I had the opportunity to work on a private member’s bill.

He asked a very simple question, but life is rarely so simple, and simplistic solutions rarely work in complex situations. We saw a very unusual situation with the fall of the Afghan government and the return of the Taliban, which very few serious people saw coming.

We made a firm commitment. Our National Defence staff, security forces, and diplomats are working very hard and are moving heaven and earth to make sure that we honour our commitment to those who helped us when the Canadian Forces were there.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask my Liberal colleague whether, despite the comments he made about the Taliban, which we all share, his government is prepared to talk, discuss and negotiate with the Taliban in order to facilitate, or even speed up, the process. It is urgent—there are 35,000 people that we want to bring to the country. I am waiting for his response.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Madam Speaker, again, I want to thank and commend my friend from the Bloc Québécois.

I can easily answer his question: The answer is yes. The government is already doing that. We are working with the Taliban government to ensure that we can safely repatriate these Afghans who want to leave and settle in Canada. These discussions are currently under way.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, my question for the parliamentary secretary is this. Would the government be willing to waive the refugee determination requirement for Afghan refugees, as it has done under the Syrian refugee initiative?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Madam Speaker, my colleague from Vancouver is asking an important question. I do not have an answer for her at this time, but I can assure her that I will raise her question to get that answer. We all want the same thing: to provide help to the Afghans swiftly and effectively.

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his comments and his commitment to this very important file. I agree that the work that needs to be done does not require a whole new committee. I would like his thoughts on what the next steps should be. How do we achieve this in a non-partisan way?

Opposition Motion—Special Committee on AfghanistanBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Milton and commend him on the quality of his French. He has worked very hard these past two years, and I congratulate him for the progress he has made.

As members of Parliament, we have an obligation to deal with this issue in a non-partisan way, especially when discussing matters of life and death. The best way to achieve this objective is to work with the existing House committees, such as the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, the Standing Committee on National Defence, the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration—