Debates of Oct. 18th, 2022

Citizenship and Immigration

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his speech, which I think underlined the importance of the debate we are having.

One important point that the member alluded to is maybe the folly of presuming some kind of “end of history” and that in the 21st century we are dealing with the same kinds of problems that reflect the human condition that we have been dealing with for a long time previously. In the immediate aftermath of the Cold War, there was maybe some of this, in retrospect, folly of “end of history” presumption in that we were going to have this peace dividend when we actually should have been preparing for the reality of new threats always emerging.

The member spoke about sanctions. I think it is fair to say that the government could continuously make announcements of sanctions, adding more and more people to the sanctions list. There is probably an extremely large number of people we could sanction. The key point is this: Are we having the right sanctions consistently applied and effectively enforced?

In that vein, as the member knows, we are very disappointed on this side of the House to see the exception granted with respect to energy sanctions for Gazprom. I wonder if the member has a comment on the exception granted for the export of Gazprom turbines and how that was widely criticized by Ukraine as being a negative in terms of their efforts.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, with Gazprom and the turbines, it has been said in the House that we did not want to give Vladimir Putin an excuse. That is as a pretext to say that we were making the situation worse.

On another point, yes, we have to take difficult decisions, but there are going to be cases where we have to make some judgments. Does creating a complete energy crisis in Germany advance the goal of peace? I am not so sure it does.

These are decisions, obviously, that the government has to make. They have to be debated around the cabinet table. I have no doubt whatsoever about the proper intent of the government, but it had to make a difficult decision and it looks like it made the right one.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Madam Speaker, there was very telling essay written not long ago, which stated in part, “liberal democracy has now exceeded many people’s capacity to tolerate it.” Let us think about that. Democracy is hard work and we live in an era when people are tired of hard work. They are tired of moving forward. One of the things that is making them tired is the growing distrust of government and institutions.

I would like the hon. member to reflect on that and to look at the dynamics in the House between the opposition, the government and the other parties. Are we driving people to distrust government by the way we behave here, and are there some things that we should be doing better to preserve democracy here at home and be an example for the rest of the world?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, that is a deep question and it is not unusual for my colleague to really plumb the depths of an issue.

Democracy is hard work. Sometimes people come to see me out of frustration. There are many good causes of frustration today, and there always have been really throughout history, but people ask me why the government cannot just does this or that and why it takes so long. I have to explain that, yes, I guess a corporation can make a quick decision and if it is the wrong decision, it will pay in terms of lost sales and lost profits, so on and so forth, but governments are not corporations. Governments need to build consensus, and that is done through debate.

Debate is long and sometimes arduous. We have to listen to points of view that we do not necessarily agree with and many people need to be consulted, many stakeholders. The objective is to come through with a consensus that people can buy into so that we can move forward, but it is hard work and we see it here in this House and in committees every day.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, the member's speech was very interesting and thoughtful.

One of the things that was talked about yesterday when I met with some folks from Russia working on the Magnitsky sanctions is the idea of how our sanctions are imposed. Right now, we will often use the SEMA sanctions, not the Magnitsky sanctions. I am curious as to why the government has made the decision to use that system of sanctions instead of the Magnitsky act that we have. We have not used that act since 2018.

I am wondering if the member has any insight into why that is the case.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, that is a good question. I am not intimately familiar with the Magnitsky act and the difference between that approach and the approach the government is taking.

My sense, being on the government side, is that the government is looking for the most effective way of going about sanctioning individuals who deserve these sanctions. My sense also with the government is that it is always open to improving its approach, and it has shown this in the last few years. When something is not working as well as it could, it will try a different approach.

I am sorry that I cannot address the finer point of the member's question.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Madam Speaker, I should ask the member, given the presence of my colleague from Northumberland—Peterborough South, about Bill C-281, which is a private member's bill that my colleague put forward to strengthen the Magnitsky act by creating a mechanism by which a parliamentary committee can effectively nominate someone to be sanctioned under the act and require the government to respond. The existence of a parliamentary trigger, which exists in other countries, in a way forces the government to be more engaged in responding to what parliamentarians are proposing with respect to sanctions.

Does the member think the excellent proposals from my colleague in Bill C-281, which would create a greater role for parliamentarians in putting forward individuals for sanctioning, would strengthen our democracy and our sanctions regime?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is an interesting idea, and I look forward to following the debate. I am sure the government is quite open-minded to all kinds of proposals that will provide proper sanction to those who deserve it.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley.

I believe this concurrence motion is very timely. It is important.

[An hon. member]

It is not.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am very disappointed to hear one of the members on the Liberal side saying that it is not important. Maybe I misheard, but it seemed like it.

It is very unfortunate because, even though the war in Ukraine is maybe out of the front pages right now, it is impacting the world and millions of people. There are tens of thousands who have lost their lives. Millions have fled as refugees, with many of them coming to Canada. It is a terrible thing that is happening, and we need to be bringing this forward and continuing to take actions. Words are cheap. It is the actions that matter.

That is the concern I have, that we on this side have, with the Liberal government. There are plenty of words, which I will talk about. There are plenty of words to say that they care and they have sympathy, but oftentimes the action is either lacking, minimal or could have been a lot better. This motion is important to bring forward, and I am hoping it will get unanimous approval.

I was recently in eastern Europe. I met with NGOs, Ukrainian refugees and government officials. I was in Poland, and I talked with these individuals. We had heard about this in the papers, but I was surprised that there have been millions who have gone through that nation, and tens of thousands who have gone on to Canada, but there are no refugee camps. People have actually opened up their homes and allowed them to come into their homes. They were there, and they have given militarily in a very significant way.

I know Canada has contributed in various ways militarily, in training, and a few guns and some other equipment. That is very disturbing, because words alone do not stop a dictator like Putin. Canada needs to be much more at the plate than it has been and is right now. It is very unfortunate. We have allowed our military to deteriorate.

I was in a meeting with a number of other MPs. It was a bipartisan meeting, and the French ambassador made some comments about Canada's military. He made them public the following day. He said that the world needs more of Canada, and he was talking specifically of our military. We need to be stronger and not allow the rusting away of our arms so we can support, in a very practical way, the self-defence of Ukraine.

The motion says:

That the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration report the following to the House: We

(a) condemn the continuing attack on Ukraine ordered by Russian President Vladimir Putin—

Yes, we do condemn it, and this House has unanimously condemned it, but again it is about coming up to the plate and stepping up.

I was born on a Canadian military base, Baden-Soellingen in Germany, during the Cold War. When I was about two years old or three years old, the Iron Curtain went up. My dad talked to me about it years later. He said that it was a very concerning time for him when I was born, wondering what this world was coming to with those threats.

In 1989, 1990 and 1991, thanks to the brave actions of the Polish people, and the other eastern Europeans who stoop up as well, the wall fell, figuratively. That was amazing. Then, as was mentioned by my colleague from Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, there was the peace dividend, and the idea that we could just let our military go to pot. That is unfortunately what has happened.

We have great soldiers in our military. I have only the highest compliments for our service personnel, but our service personnel have spoken to me. One fellow I was talking to was at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier during the Remembrance Day memorial here in Ottawa. He said that, even though he was in the infantry, they only practised one time a year because they did not have ammunition to practise. That is disgraceful. We need to stand up for and strengthen our military, so we can help other countries and not just rely on the United States. We need to be strong in this way. That is something very practical.

In my visit to Europe, and I know others MPs have visited, my wife and I had the opportunity to go to Auschwitz. That was a grieving visit. It is not something one goes to snap a few pictures. It is a place of real reflection on and contemplation of the depravity of where humans can go.

There is a place where the crematorium and the gas chambers were located. The German SS troops blew it up before the Allied forces took it over, but the remains are still there, and I reflected. I thought of the hundreds of thousands of people who had died in that space, which is maybe half the size, at the most, of this chamber, as far as the gas chamber and the crematorium go. Probably more people have died there than anywhere else in the world in history, and it is just a reflection of where totalitarianism and dictatorships can go. Canada is “The True North strong and free”. We need to continue to stand up for all those who seek freedoms.

The second part of this motion says, “recognize that a growing proportion of the Russian people are bravely resisting and opposing this attack”. I feel for many of the Canadians of Russian heritage in Canada. It is not their decision, what happened, and when I have gone door to door in my community I have met people from eastern Europe, of Russian ancestry or who have immigrated over the past 10, 20 or 30 years. They are most appreciative of the freedoms we experience in Canada, and there are many Russians who are trying to flee that nation, hundreds of thousands of them, because of the Putin's decisions for the military to take men of all ages and press them into service as cannon fodder. They are fleeing, and Canada needs to do all it can to step up to help people trying to flee from Russia.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Madam Speaker, I appreciated hearing comments from the member opposite about the importance of standing up against totalitarian regimes. As a Jewish Canadian, I found hearing about his experience of touring a concentration camp to be very important.

Does he not, from that experience, think it is so important for our leaders here in Canada to stand up clearly to extremism right here in our country, to speak out against racist movements and anti-Semitic movements in our country, and to be vocal at every moment to call it out?

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, I do believe that we need to be standing up against extremism and speaking about it. Again, the Liberals make a good show of it, but what about speaking up and doing something about Iran and the IRG, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? The Liberals say they disapprove of it, but they speak out of both sides of their mouths. What about Hong Kong? It took them forever to actually stand up for the people protesting in Hong Kong. What about the Uighurs in China? What about other things all over the world?

It is disgraceful, the government and what it does. Yes, I will commend some of its actions in helping Ukraine, but it is not enough. We need a lot more done in the world. Canada needs more of us to be involved.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I am somewhat disappointed in the sense that the Conservatives had options. They could have suggested an emergency debate. They could have suggested a take-note debate. They could have used an opposition day. There are all sorts of alternatives to deal with the issue they brought forward this morning. It would appear that they did not want to see Bill S-5 debated.

Why is the Conservative Party so upset with the fact that Canadians want to see action on the environment? The Conservative Party persists in preventing debate on Bill S-5, which is up for the first time. Instead, it brings this motion.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, we are concerned and want the government to actually take action when people are dying and there are millions of refugees. We need to continue to bring things forward.

I have an example. About two or three months ago, there was an opportunity to have free flights come here. They would have brought in refugees and sent back humanitarian aid. It was constantly being stymied by the Liberals. I asked what was going on here to try to maybe shame them, and the next day it was changed. I appreciate the change. Sometimes we have to bring things forward to see change. That is the reason. This is an emergency.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Speaker, given the horrific comments by Danielle Smith promoting pro-Putin propaganda and blaming the people of Ukraine for causing the war, I would like to see if just one Conservative, and I am not asking for much here, who has a backbone and a willingness to stand up and denounce Danielle Smith and her pro-Putin propaganda.

If I can have that one, we would be much further ahead today in Parliament. I see a hand up. I want to hear him denounce Danielle Smith and her pro-Putin propaganda.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is kind of interesting that the member does not want to focus on seeing things happening and bringing people forward. He wants to go into politics on a provincial level. She needs to take responsibility for herself. We are standing—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. I would remind members that they had an opportunity to ask questions and make comments. I would like the hon. member for Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge to respond in the time he has left. I am sure everybody wants to hear his answer.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Madam Speaker, the Conservatives unequivocally condemn Russia and Putin for their invasion. We put the blame on Russia, and we believe 100% in supporting Ukraine.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am delighted to speak to this motion today. Earlier today, I was listening to the debate and heard the member for Winnipeg North say that it is not the right time to be speaking about Ukraine. The fact of the matter is that under the present circumstances, it is always the right time to be speaking about Ukraine. I point out that this motion is properly and procedurally before the House this morning.

The people who are watching know what we are debating, but I am going to read the motion into the record. The motion before us that we are debating right now calls for us to do the following things:

(a) condemn the continuing attack on Ukraine ordered by Russian President Vladimir Putin,

(b) recognize that a growing proportion of the Russian people are bravely resisting and opposing this attack,

(c) call on the Government of Canada to develop measures to support Russian dissidents, human rights defenders, and conscientious objectors within the military who are seeking to urgently flee Russia, while ensuring that necessary security precautions are taken.

First and foremost, we need to understand that since World War II, the world has organized its affairs around maintaining international global peace and security. Many institutions were created, starting with the League of Nations after World War I. That organization was ultimately supplanted by the United Nations. Other organizations, like NATO, were created to maintain world peace. For most of the last 70 years, including the last 30 years after the end of the Cold War, the world has benefited from the peace dividend that these organizations have created the environment for.

That all changed on February 24 of this year. Mr. Putin's actions have been a wake-up call for democratic nations like Canada that believe in peace, democracy and human rights. That is why we are all so horrified by Mr. Putin's actions.

Throughout this time, I have had cause to reflect on our amazing democracy here in Canada. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of Government except for all the rest.

In Canada, the official opposition performs a fundamental role in ensuring good government. I know that sometimes my colleagues on the government side may find a strong opposition to be a bit of a nuisance. However, I think about countries like Russia, where there is no real opposition and where dissidents who oppose Mr. Putin suffer great penalty, from imprisonment to torture to being murdered, just like the mob makes people disappear. In Russia, there is also no free and fair media. What people see on television and on their social media feeds are the lies and propaganda disseminated and fed to them by the state.

I understand the power of propaganda. Earlier, my colleague mentioned that he visited a concentration camp. Back in May, I was in Berlin and I visited the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. When one walks up to the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, like all of the concentration camps, there are three words written in German on the gate. Those three words are “Arbeit Macht Frei”. What do they mean? They mean “work makes you free”. Why were those words on the gates to the concentration camps? It was to propagandize those who were being imprisoned there to think they had hope and to provide them with false hope. That is the power of propaganda and that is what Mr. Putin is doing right now to his own population in Russia.

There is another reason this motion is so important. Yesterday in this House, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, during question period, said that we have done a lot for Ukraine but that “we have to do more”. Well, here is the opportunity to do more by voting for this motion. All this motion asks for is for the “Government of Canada to develop measures to support Russian dissidents, human rights defenders, and conscientious objectors...who are seeking to urgently flee Russia”. Frankly, I am surprised that the government has not already taken steps to help these people, who are fighting their own government and supporting Ukraine.

Where is the leadership from the Prime Minister? I remember when Prime Minister Harper told Mr. Putin to his face to get out of Crimea. Where is this Prime Minister? Why is he not saying the same things?

One area we have to address is energy and Canada's complete and utter failure to support the energy needs of our friends in Germany and Europe. The fact of the matter is that after seven long years of the government's failed energy policies, Canada, one of the largest natural gas producers on the planet, is completely unable to help our allies in their time of need.

Putin is using energy as a weapon of war against our allies in Europe, and what does this country do instead? We send turbines back to Russia to help them sell their blood natural gas to Europe. It is shameful. It also stands in the way of LNG here in Canada at the same time. It is obvious that these permits for the turbines should be cancelled. The Ukrainian ambassador has made a compelling plea for cancellation and it is time for the government to act.

Regarding the issue of dissidents, Vladimir Kara-Murza is a Russian patriot who fights against this tyrannical state for basic democratic rights. He puts his life on the line every day for the basic human rights that we here in Canada simply take for granted. Do members know what Putin did to him? Vladimir Kara-Murza is in prison. That is how Putin deals with opposition. Again, where is the leadership of the Prime Minister? Vladimir Kara-Murza has been in a Russian prison since April. They accused him of spreading fake news and he has been charged with high treason, yet the government does nothing.

I take the Minister of Foreign Affairs at her word when she says she will do more. Well, here is her chance. Here is her and her government's opportunity to do just that. It is time to show leadership. It is past time for the Prime Minister to learn from Mr. Harper's example and tell Mr. Putin to get out of Ukraine. It is past time to support the energy needs of our allies in Europe and it is past time for the government to take real actions, support this motion and help Vladimir Kara-Murza and the brave Russians like him.

Vladimir Kara-Murza provides real opposition to Putin's tyranny and is currently subjected to monstrous police and judicial pressure from authorities. He and his family live under constant pressure. Putin's mob-style government will stop at nothing to destroy those who threaten his totalitarian control through terror, acts of violence and fear. Mr. Kara-Murza is not the only one. We know what Putin has done to Alexei Navalny. We know what he did to Sergei Magnitsky. Again, where is the leadership?

The Prime Minister and the government must support this motion now, show leadership and help these brave Russian dissidents and our friends in Ukraine.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I would ask the member where the leadership is from the Conservative Party. If this is such a burning issue, as the member tried to portray, why did the Conservatives not bring it up in the form of an emergency debate? Why not work with the government on having a take-note debate? Why not have an opposition day motion?

Why wait for the morning we are supposed to be debating the environment and Bill S-5, an important piece of legislation? This would have been the second day of debate on the bill, yet the Conservative Party today says that this motion is important. For the Government of Canada, the issue has always been important. The Conservative Party, on the other hand, chose today for it, a day when we were going to debate the environment, something it does not support, and the environmental legislation that would make our environment a better place for all Canadians. Why?

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Madam Speaker, I think one of the things the member opposite does not understand is that this motion is properly and procedurally before the House. We have brought it forward according to the rules of procedure. If he does not agree with that, I suppose he could bring up a point of order. To get back to the very first thing I said in my speech, it is obvious to me that he and his colleagues want to do everything to avoid talking about the substance of this motion.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Madam Speaker, from the beginning of the debate, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons has been impugning the motives of the official opposition and telling us that this is not the right time. He questions the timeliness of such a debate this morning.

However, I am not hearing much from him on the substance of the issue. Maybe my colleague could help him reflect on the substance of the question.

Paragraph (c) states that we “call on the Government of Canada to develop measures to support Russian dissidents”.

Maybe my colleague could give us a number of measures that might inspire the government to resolve the matter and allow us to move on to other things, namely the debate on Bill S‑5.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Madam Speaker, unfortunately I only have a few seconds and there is so much I could say. The bottom line is that Canada needs to show leadership. That is what I said in my speech. We should take a page out of Prime Minister Harper's experience and speak directly to Mr. Putin to say that it is time to get out of Ukraine.