Debates of May 4th, 2023

Opposition Motion—Interference by the People's Republic of China

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Madam Speaker, the official opposition is also really confused, because we found out about the foreign interference and about what was happening to the member from Wellington—Halton Hills in the news.

We agree with what the member said. What has come out in the media is really important for our democracy and it affects all Canadians, members of the House and the government. It is really unbelievable. I am asking myself the same question as my colleague.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Madam Speaker, as a New Democrat, I am concerned about foreign election interference. We were the first party to suggest a public inquiry. However, I have two concerns, and the member's speech raises both of them for me.

One is that if we turn this into a bitter partisan issue, we actually will be doing the work of the foreign agents who seek to disrupt our democracy instead of working to solve the problem. The second one is that if we exclusively focus on China, we will miss other attempts to interfere in our democracy, including things like the convoy that the member supported, where a million dollars flowed from the U.S. to try to overthrow the government here.

[Kelly McCauley]

What a clown.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know it is the end of the season, but calling people “clowns” across the way and things like that, there needs to be limits here.

There is nobody in the House pretty much right now. We are on duty and in the middle of debate. What we are debating right now is really serious. We are talking about threats to democracy. When we behave like this in the House, when we are talking about protecting our democracy, protecting democratic institutions, it really troubles me, because I am concerned about the state of our democracy.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I appreciate the feedback that the hon. member has provided. I am not sure who may have called somebody that name, but I would remind members that we are to be respectful here. On a number of occasions, we have raised the issue that calling people names in the House of Commons is not acceptable, so I would ask individuals to be respectful.

The hon. member for Calgary Midnapore, a brief answer please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Madam Speaker, I simply have to refute the facts within that question. The truth of the matter is that the member stands in a coalition with the government that is impeding Canadians from their families, and that is giving it cover-up and not keeping members and their families safe. The member is complicit with that, and he should think about that.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, given all of the conversations that have been happening this morning, I want to begin by being very clear. On this side of the House, our government has zero tolerance for foreign interference. We take any attempt to undermine our democracy seriously, and we will continue to take all the actions that are necessary to protect our institutions. This is not a partisan issue, and it should not be a partisan issue. It is a matter of upholding Canadians' confidence in our democracy.

Foreign interference, as we know, is not solely a Canadian issue. Hostile state actors are targeting western democracies, whether it is Australia, the United Kingdom, France, the United States or other allies. These hostile state actors continue to do so at a rate we have not seen since the Cold War. They are working to sow distrust in our institutions, and it is very important for Canadians to see that every single member of the House is united in our actions against hostile foreign actors.

Our government has already done more than any other government in the history of our country to put a stop to foreign interference. We are committed to working across the government and with all who are interested in working with us to bolster our institutions, to improve our systems and to create the tools that are required to fight and deter foreign interference.

The Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that he is not here to play a constructive role or to work across party lines to fight foreign interference, and that is his choice. If members opposite choose to polarize situations and score cheap political points on the back of a serious situation, that is their choice. That is not how we choose to do things.

Foreign interference is a topic that requires constant vigilance and the participation, collaboration and co-operation of governments around the world, but, most important, all members of the House. In today's uncertain and unstable global climate, I believe very strongly that it is an issue that demands the types of conversations we are having now, so long as those conversations are grounded in fact and that we choose to work toward solutions, and we know Canadians feel the same way. Canadians share this concern.

Let me be clear about one thing above all else. It is Canadians and Canadians alone who decide the outcome of our elections, and we will ensure it stays that way. We have the systems and processes, the checks and balances that protect the foundations of our democracy. As I said before, we are committed to working across the government to improve and create the tools that are required to fight and deter foreign interference.

Canadians want reassurance that they will not be targeted directly. That also means members of Parliament. We will do all that we can as parliamentarians, and we should do all we can, to stay ahead of the threats to our safety.

Malicious interference undermines Canada's democratic institutions and public discourse. It is also used to intimidate and coerce diaspora communities in our country.

Part of what hostile state actors are trying to do is to shift the narrative. By that I mean they are working to sow division to circumvent the rules-based international order. They are seeking to create confusion and mistrust, and when they look at the debate in this House and the comments that are coming from across the way, they are succeeding.

To achieve their objectives, these foreign-state actors engage in hostile activities. They actively engage in spreading misinformation and disinformation in an attempt to undermine confidence in the fundamental institutions of this country, including our electoral system. They do so by cultivating witting and unwitting individuals to assist them, which enables them to operate with plausible deniability on Canadian soil. That is why it—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am still getting some interruptions while the hon. member is speaking. There will be an opportunity for questions and answers and there will be opportunities for more speeches. I would remind members—

[Warren Steinley]

But he said—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order, please. That is really disrespectful. I am speaking to the hon. member. He should be paying attention, listening and abiding by the rules of the House. If he is not happy with that, then I would ask him to maybe leave the chamber.

The hon. member for Vancouver Granville.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, as I said, they do so by cultivating witting or unwitting individuals to assist them, which enables them to operate with plausible deniability on Canadian soil. That is why it constitutes a threat to Canada's social cohesion, sovereignty and, indeed, our national security. That is why it is so important for us to double down on protecting our democratic processes and the values that we hold dear.

That is why, over the past month, the Prime Minister has been showing Canadians exactly what we are doing to confront this problem. He has made important announcements on this topic over the past month.

I want to be clear that the Government of Canada is always seeking new and innovative measures and ways to enhance the measures we already have in place to counter foreign interference. As the threats evolve, so too must our response. That is what we have been doing. We continue to learn from the experience of our international partners to see what works and what may be applicable in Canada.

In keeping with this approach, on March 6, the Prime Minister announced further action to combat foreign interference and to uphold confidence in our democratic institutions

Let us just be clear about what has been done. The Prime Minister announced the establishment of a new national counter foreign interference coordinator in Public Safety Canada, who will have the power to coordinate across government efforts to combat foreign interference. The government has actioned requested reviews from the National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, NSICOP, and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency, NSIRA, on the state of foreign interference in Canada and in our federal electoral process and how our national security agencies have responded to this threat.

It is also important to note that the Prime Minister announced that we were developing a plan to address outstanding recommendations from NSICOP, from the Rosenberg report and other reviews on this matter. I will note that the report “Countering an evolving threat: Update on recommendations to counter foreign interference in Canada’s democratic institutions” was delivered on April 6.

We have made an investment of $5.5 million to strengthen the capacity of civil society partners to counter disinformation, promote democratic resilience and improve public awareness of foreign interference.

The Prime Minister has also announced the launch of public consultations to guide the creation of a foreign influence transparency registry in our country. These consultations are currently open. I would encourage all Canadians and all members of the House to share their views on this registry through Public Safety Canada's website.

It is important that we have these consultations to ensure that the communities that are affected by this have the opportunity to have input into what that registry might look like, so we do not have unintended consequences of communities being adversely impacted.

The goal is to ensure transparency and accountability from the very people who advocate on behalf of a foreign government and that the communities that are targeted by these attempts at foreign interference are protected.

While consultations on the foreign influence transparency registry are under way in round tables and bilateral formats, with dozens of stakeholders and interlocutors, I would be glad for all of us to get an update in the House once that process concludes, which we will have.

What I would note is that we are hearing overwhelmingly that there is support to bring forward the registry, and we are going to do it but we are going to do it in the right way. These consultations are going to help to ensure we get it right.

The Government of Canada is making substantial and significant investments in our counter foreign interference capabilities. The last budget includes $13.5 million, and another $3.1 million, to Public Safety Canada to establish a national counter foreign interference office, something that the opposition is voting against.

Budget 2023 also includes almost $50 million for the RCMP so it has more resources to do its work to protect Canadians from harassment and intimidation by foreign actors, an investment that the opposition opposes. This investment will also increase the RCMP's investigative capacity and its capacity to proactively engage with communities that are at risk of being targeted. I know this is something that the opposition continues to oppose.

These investments build on the previous budget, in which we saw investments of almost $15 million to renew and expand the G7 rapid response mechanism to address foreign threats to democracy, which the opposition opposed, as well as the almost $13 million to establish a research security centre at Public Safety Canada to protect Canadian research, while also strengthening the security posture of universities and research institutions, which the Conservatives opposed.

These significant investments seek to increase the Government of Canada's capacity in its ongoing efforts to counter foreign interference. As I have noted, it is clear that these issues are very much part of what this government is doing and, given the current climate, they are going to continue to be on our agenda.

Our recent announcements build upon the foundation that has been provided by the authorities, and can assure Canadians they can have confidence in their institutions, including in their elections.

I would like to take a few moments to share a few quotes from testimony that House of Commons committees have heard over the past while, which really drive this point home.

David Vigneault, the head of CSIS, said:

CSIS continues to view hostile activities by foreign-state actors as the most significant threat to Canada's national security community.... Building resilience to foreign interference is one way to mitigate its corrosive effects....

Therefore, we continue to invest significant efforts in building relationships with individuals, communities and community leaders to establish and sustain trust, and to offer our support and partnership in their protection.

I am now going to quote Jody Thomas, the national security intelligence adviser. She said:

Over the past few years, we have taken a number of steps to more effectively detect, deter and counter foreign interference in all its forms, including but not only during election periods. One effective way to do so is to talk about the threat and how we mitigate it without jeopardizing the sources and techniques used to gather intelligence and keep Canadians safe.... These mechanisms helped ensure that the 2019 and 2021 federal elections were indeed fair and legitimate, despite foreign interference attempts.... [W]e are clear-eyed in understanding the challenge posed by foreign interference. We are taking concrete steps to strengthen our counter-foreign interference approach, including by making sure that those who engage in such activities face consequences.

It is clear that the experts on this matter agree. The non-partisan experts in this country agree we are doing good work on a very solid foundation and we must remain vigilant.

With respect to the 2019 and 2021 federal elections, the Prime Minister asked NSIRA to undertake a review. He has spoken to the chair of that committee to ensure that the review captures the flow of information from national security agencies to decision-makers. Further, the Government of Canada's security and intelligence apparatus and community are combatting threats within their respective mandates. From a law enforcement perspective, for example, foreign interference activities can be investigated when criminal or illegal activity is involved.

The RCMP has a broad, multi-faceted mandate that allows it to investigate and prevent foreign interference by drawing upon legislation. As part of its mandate, as everyone in this House should know, CSIS provides the Government of Canada with timely and relevant intelligence on these threats, but it decides what information is provided up the food chain, and not political leaders.

The Communications Security Establishment, or CSE, works to monitor the cybersecurity environment and to use that understanding to identify, address and share knowledge about systemic threats, risks and vulnerabilities.

I should mention that this government has a particular reputation for being open and transparent in these matters, and I think we are moving in the right direction with the appointment of an exceptionally qualified independent special rapporteur. He is aware of how crucial it is to uphold transparency while also preserving the methods, the technology and the professionals who work in the field.

While the independent rapporteur has been appointed, we will carry out this task in collaboration with all lawmakers who choose to participate in the process so that Canadians can see our diligence and transparency. We have said time and time again that we will accept all of the recommendations of the special rapporteur.

We recognize the concerns that Canadians have, but we also want to reassure them that this government is taking every proactive measure—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Order. I see there are members who either are trying to ask questions while the hon. member is speaking or are thinking out loud. I would ask them to jot their questions down so that when it is the appropriate time to ask questions, they are able to do that. I am going to ask that the clock not be stopped when I have to interrupt and what will happen is that the official opposition will end up losing speeches.

I want to remind members to be respectful. I know this is a very delicate situation, a very serious one, and I would ask members to be respectful.

The hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands is rising on a point of order.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Speaker, on that same point of order, we have members on the government side basically gaslighting the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. That is why we are doing what we are doing. They are not going to get away with it.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

This is a point of debate and the hon. member has been making a lot of comments while the other hon. member is speaking. I would ask members to please be respectful on both sides of the House as to any comments being made. If it is not the appropriate time to participate in the debate, then they should wait until it is.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I really do not appreciate the hon. member for Regina—Lewvan—

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

They do it all the time.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am speaking, and the hon. member was still making comments while I was speaking. Again I would ask members to please be respectful.

The hon. member for Vancouver Granville.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, I want to go back to what I was saying. I think we all recognize on this side of the House the concerns Canadians have. I want to reassure them that our government is taking these concerns very seriously. We are taking the proactive measures that are required to thwart outside meddling in our institutions and in our democracy, and we are going to safeguard our democratic institutions.

We take seriously the introduction of new policies and powers within the national security community, but we also work within the legal requirements and constraints we have. The legal requirements that will allow us to implement them, as well as the transparent systems that will allow for accountability, must be carefully considered.

It is important that we are respectful when having these discussions across the country. We need a national picture. We need to understand the impact on communities and on individuals, and it is important for all of us in this House to show Canadians that we can put partisanship aside to deal with the very serious issues before us.

I want to thank all members of this House who have taken the time to share their serious concerns and points of view on this conversation so that we can move forward together.

It is also important for us in this House to take a moment to thank our security and law enforcement agencies, which count among them great Canadians who are working on the front lines in our communities, at our borders and online in the cybersphere to keep us safe. They work tirelessly to keep us safe and to keep our democracy safe, and respect for the work they do is critical. There are experts in the field who are working hard to ensure we have the best possible recommendations on the path forward.

Regardless of our political stripe, election interference, foreign interference, is something we must take seriously. To turn this into a partisan cudgel to try to score political points does Canada no service and does our democracy no service. All it does is seek to validate what foreign actors seek to do. They seek to sow discontent, to disrupt, and to cause confusion. The antics in this House and the comments that have been made are an indication that they are succeeding. On this side of the House, we will not let them succeed, because we believe the work that needs to be done is often done quietly and with seriousness of purpose.

As a former public servant who had the privilege of serving this country in the Department of Public Safety and working with CSIS, the RCMP and our border agencies, I can tell members that our public servants take this work extremely seriously. They take this work as their life's work and they do not compromise when it comes to the safety of Canadians.

The type of work we need is work that is done quietly and in the service of this country and that keeps us safe. It is not comments and catcalls, criticism of fact or making things up that gets us to a safer democracy. What gets us to a safer democracy is showing Canadians that every single member of this House respects our democracy, respects its institutions, respects the way in which our Constitution governs us, but most importantly, respects the quiet work of our public service in keeping us safe and making sure those things work in tandem.

Our job as parliamentarians is to reflect the best of this country. Our job is to make sure Canadians see in us people who are prepared to protect their democracy and preserve it. I am confident that on this side of the House this is the work we are going to do. We invite every single parliamentarian in this House to cast partisanship aside and work together in this regard.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

On a point of order, the hon. member for Battlefords—Lloydminster.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would ask that you remind all members to be judicious in their language. Using the word “catcall” in something so serious is offensive. As a woman, I am offended that this language is being used in this form of debate.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I want to remind members to be extremely careful with the words they use.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Madam Speaker, if the use of that word was offensive, I unreservedly apologize and withdraw the word. Instead, I would say that the name-calling from the opposition and the ongoing chirping do not help progress the conversation on working toward our democracy—