Larry Bagnell

[Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, April 21st, 2004]

Madam Speaker, in the area covered by the Tlicho agreement there are four communities where virtually all the citizens live. In those four communities, there are some non-aboriginal people. Could the member tell us how the rights of non-aboriginal people will be protected in this Tlicho agreement?

[Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, April 21st, 2004]

I apologize for not putting my question through you last time, Madam Speaker.

Harvard University has done a study that suggests that good governance is one of the prerequisites to community and economic development. I wonder if the member could comment on that.

The Tlicho people, as we know, have a number of excellent nascent business enterprises at the moment, but it is quite a challenge. They are geographically in the middle part of Canada. They are not in the high Arctic and they are not on the border with the United States, where most of Canada's population lives. They are more remote and hard to get at in that respect.

I wonder if the member could comment on the difficulty in surviving as a society and building a good community in that middle part of Canada, and how this agreement will help the Tlicho achieve that.

[Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, April 21st, 2004]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for an excellent description of the agreement. I know the hon. member, being of aboriginal ancestry, understands the benefits of self-government.

In Yukon, we have a number of the first self-governing nations in the country. For me, it is like night and day, the ones that have signed a self-government agreement. They have a full and modern government taking care of their own affairs.

I would appreciate it if the member would expand on self-government and its importance. There are some members in the House who do not have any first nations people in their riding, or at least communities that are large enough and cohesive enough to be self-governing aboriginal communities.

Could you outline the benefits of self-government as you see them and of the nature that this exciting legislation will fulfill?

[Budget Implementation Act, 2004, April 20th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to continue explaining why people in the north are so excited about this great budget. The budget will do a lot of things for my riding, and I have had a lot of positive feedback from my constituents, as I know other members from the north have.

I have to commend the members from Nunavut and NWT for all their work over the years to help get these great items for north of sixty into the budget.

Some people might wonder how democracy works in this complicated system of parties, caucuses and committees and whether they get their voice across. This is a perfect example of how it works. We have a number of caucuses every week for the northern and western and rural regions. Then all the various caucuses in the regions and sectors feed into a national caucus. The Prime Minister and ministers get to hear the concerns and suggestions which have come directly from our constituents. Of course, that is how they get fed into a budget and that is how we get a budget with a number of tremendous items for our constituencies. Democracy works in a very effective way.

There is $3.5 billion for the largest environmental program of any government in Canadian history, of which 60% will go to the north. We have $90 million in economic development funds. We have the GST rebate for municipalities. We have huge infrastructure funds that are based not on a per capita basis but on need. Members of Parliament now recognize that it costs a lot more to produce infrastructure in the north, with a scattered population and very harsh climate conditions.

I was very excited to see funds for northern sovereignty, for which I have lobbied for a number years. Also, we had the announcement recently of a five year plan that had a number of items to help protect our precious northern sovereignty.

We have just finished the longest one way northern sovereignty patrol which started right after the budget. We will have unmanned patrols this summer of aircraft in the north. We will have the first major military exercise in the north, and a number of other investments.

I was delighted also about the $41 million in the budget to map the north slope. By doing that, we can extend our 200 mile boundaries once we have made that very important investment in the Arctic. Russia has already done that, and I am very excited that we will do the same to protect our sovereignty.

However, that is not what I wanted to talk about today. I want to talk about a commitment by the government to aboriginal people.

Many people know that when our present Prime Minister came into office, he came in with a major commitment in spirit to help the first nation peoples and aboriginals and to reduce the tragic gap in poverty, education and health care and to give them equality with other Canadians.

As Canadians know, we had a very historic day, chaired by the Prime Minister, on Monday. Seventy aboriginal leaders of national aboriginal organizations from all provinces and territories were in Ottawa. Everyone was working together in the spirit of reducing the disparity and finding new solutions in a new world. Members of Parliament were not telling first nations and aboriginal people, Inuit people and Metis what to do. It was the first nations people meeting with parliamentarians and cabinet ministers to come up with solutions in this modern world.

Where is the commitment beyond that? This partnership is very important. In fact it is an essential foundation in trust that is needed to make this work. However, what are the actions after that? Those actions are set out very clearly in the throne speech. The throne speech covers the government's agenda which includes items for early childhood education, youth education, training, the urban aboriginal strategy and for Metis people.

We have the program, but once again we need more actions to show our commitment and those show up in the budget: $25 million a year over five years for human resources development. It also has funds to set up a new governance institute.

If we look at the budget estimates, right in the actual figures there are increased investments for first nations people. This is a very careful and responsible budget in times of tight money but the investments did not stop increasing for first nations people. There were $226 million more for claims, $84 million more for programs, $84 million more for safe drinking water, $66 million more for education and $26 million more for capital rust out projects. There is a total of $495 million, a 9% increase in this very important budget.

Our action continued on after the summit. The next day we started debate on a land claim and self-government bill in an area of Canada larger than some countries. We carried on with a very important aboriginal agenda. It did not just end that day.

Today we have carried on with yet another debate on yet another land claim which would bring first nations people into governing themselves, those who are there on the ground, who understand the solutions and who can work to reduce the poverty.

The examples are so successful. We have done this across the country. It is so exciting that the Prime Minister has led this move and this enthusiasm to reduce poverty and that a vast majority, if not all members of the House, are quite on-side in this enthusiasm to bring these people into equality.

With all that good news, I move:

That the question be now put.

[Budget Implementation Act, 2004, April 20th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise with all this enthusiasm in the House for the budget. I can see that everyone is so excited about it that they are making lots of noise, and that is great. One reason they are so excited is that it is a great budget for the north and a great budget for my riding. I really have to commend the members for Nunavut--

[Westbank First Nation Self-Government Act, April 20th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I must begin by saying that I disagree with the previous arguments and I will outline my position.

First of all, the first amendment to the bill is a complete deletion of clause 3. Basically, we cannot delete clause 3. We cannot delete any clause, actually, because this is an agreement between the Government of Canada and a first nation. We have negotiated this agreement for years and to remove an instrumental clause, which of course the Government of Canada has agreed to put into law and which is what we are doing in Parliament, would abrogate the whole agreement and we would be back at stage one.

The effect of this amendment would be that Canada would not ratify the Westbank first nation self-government agreement. With this amendment, members of Parliament are being asked not to approve the Westbank first nation self-government agreement in its entirety. Clause 3 would give the force of law to the Westbank first nation self-government agreement. Clause 3 is the substantive provision of Bill C-11. Without this provision, the Westbank first nation self-government agreement would not be given effect.

Both Canada and Westbank first nation must ratify the Westbank first nation self-government agreement for the agreement to come into effect. Pursuant to the Westbank first nation self-government agreement, Canada's ratification procedure requires that Canada sign the agreement and that Canada enact federal legislation giving effect to the agreement. Canada signed the Westbank first nation self-government agreement on October 3, 2003. Bill C-11, and in particular clause 3, is the proposed federal legislation that would give effect to the Westbank first nation self-government agreement.

With regard to the specific argument that we had in relation to clause 3 and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, basically, in summary, I would say that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms will apply to the Westbank government and to the people of Westbank. The Government of Canada is committed to the principle that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms binds all governments in Canada so that aboriginal peoples and non-aboriginal Canadians alike would continue to enjoy equally the rights and freedoms guaranteed by the charter.

The charter, through section 25, is designed to ensure a sensitive balance between individual rights and freedoms, and the unique values and traditions of aboriginal people in Canada. This is stated in the Government of Canada's federal policy, “The Government of Canada's Approach to Implementationof the Inherent Right and the Negotiation of Aboriginal Self-Government”. Section 32 of the Westbank self-government agreement is in conformity with this policy.

It is the view of the Government of Canada that the Westbank first nation government and any Westbank laws passed pursuant to the Westbank first nation self-government agreement will be subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in its entirety. One cannot make one provision of the charter apply more forcefully than any other.

With regard to providing Westbank with specific self-government inherent rights, this is a general right that is applied across the country. It is the same in all our self-government agreements. It is not specific to Westbank. It is not a specific right.

The references to an inherent right in the Westbank first nation self-government agreement are general in nature and do not constitute a specific recognition of any specific Westbank first nation aboriginal right to self-government. The Westbank first nation self-government agreement and its references to an inherent right of self-government are in accordance with the federal government's inherent right policy, which recognizes that the inherent right of self-government is an existing aboriginal right within section 35 of the Constitution Act.

In case the people who are watching want to know what we are debating in section 25 of the Charter, I will read it. It states:

The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

(b) any rights or freedoms that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.

This is a general protection and reference in the bill. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms will continue to apply to aboriginal people across the country and to the people on the Westbank reserve. Of course, the sensitive clause 25 will ensure that rights are acknowledged.

I want to now talk about Motion No. 3 and the clause respecting additions to reserve. The amendment basically suggests that adding land to the Westbank First Nation reserve would require the consent of the City of Kelowna. While land has already been added to the Westbank reserve through our general policy, when additional land is added to reserves, there are consultations and agreements with the provincial and municipal governments. This is already in our policy.

The authority to add land to reserves is a federal authority and that authority is applied across the country, including the Westbank. With or without this agreement, there is authority to add to the reserve. However, the amendment would take away from the Westbank people something that would be available to all reserves across the country, and that would obviously be unfair.

We are not here today to take away or lessen one particular first nation from a power. However, we had a lengthy debate about this section in committee and at that time assurances were given, and that is Canadian policy is that when additions are made to reserve, the municipalities and provincial governments will consulted. Therefore, this should not be a concern.

The Westbank First Nation, like all other first nations in Canada, may concurrently access additions to reserve policy, which is a national policy. Upon implementation of the Westbank First Nation self-government agreement nothing would change for the Westbank First Nation with respect to the federal government's additions to reserve policy.

The additions to reserve policy requires that the first nation and the municipality in question negotiate in areas such as joint land use planning, bylaw harmonization, tax considerations, service provision and future dispute resolution. In practice Canada has insisted that these matters be dealt with to the satisfaction of all parties. As a result, in many cases lands are added to reserves only after years of negotiations. This has been demonstrated in the addition of what are known as the Gallagher Canyon lands to the Westbank First Nation reserve in 2000, 17 years after the Westbank First Nation first initiated an addition to reserve request.

Any amendment denying the Westbank First Nation the right to access the federal government's additions to reserve policy in whole or in part would set the Westbank First Nation apart from all other first nations, including those that have self-government agreements or those that have concluded treaties. This would place an undue burden on the Westbank First Nation. Further, the additions to reserve policy is within the purview of the federal government's jurisdiction to deal with all matters relating to Indian lands.

As stated above, in practice the additions to reserve policy does not permit the addition of lands to reserve without the consent of surrounding municipalities. In this regard the proposed amendment requiring the consent of the City of Kelowna prior to any further additions to Westbank First Nation reserve lands merely states what is already the case.

Nevertheless, the proposed amendment would cede the federal government's power, expressed through the granting of an order in council with respect to additions to Westbank reserve lands, to a municipal level of government. Additions to reserve, a federal jurisdiction under the Canadian constitutional framework, would no longer be entirely within the prerogative of the federal government.

The additions to reserve are granted pursuant to an order in council by the governor in council. It is recognized that additions to reserve proposals may potentially impact on provincial and municipal governments, and thus the federal government's addition to reserve policy requires that these levels of government have an opportunity to express their interests.

Provinces and municipalities must be advised in writing of an additions to reserve proposal within their jurisdiction and have three months to respond in writing to identify any issues with an additions to reserve proposal. Third party interests must be identified and dealt with before an additions to reserve proposal may proceed.

I will not have time to go any further, so I will just summarize by saying, of the two amendments, the first one basically would abrogate the whole agreement. It is the primary clause that puts it into effect. It basically is yes or no on Westbank. The last one I do not think is necessary. First, the City of Kelowna is already guaranteed under the present policy. Second, we could not take a right away from one first nation in Canada. If people want to change that, they should lobby to change the entire government policy, not just one clause in the agreement.

[Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, April 19th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for the three questions. I think they are very thoughtful questions. It is good that he asked them so that the House can understand the answers. I will answer them backwards because I have shorter answers for the last ones.

In relation to the North Slave Métis, the reason I did not bring it up during my speech was, as the member said, because the action is before the courts and as we know, members of Parliament do not comment on actions that are before the courts. However, I can say that most of the members of the North Slave Métis have access to one land claim or another. They are a member on various lists, either the four Tlicho communities or some other list. In that respect, there was not a separate negotiation with the North Slave Métis, although there were attempts originally to somehow work them into the negotiations, but those were not successful. Therefore, we are at that stage.

There is also a clause in the agreement that protects, so it is without prejudice to any other claim holders. If something were to happen later on that was determined that the North Slave Metis did have some rights--and if they won some rights--there is a clause in the Tlicho agreement that would leave that open for that to occur. I think they are protected in that respect and we will let the courts proceed. I cannot comment on the court proceedings.

In relation to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies. That is our policy now, so we put it in any self-government agreement that we are negotiating. Any extra wording is only to make it clear to people who might have that hesitancy or wonder how it applies. It applies fully in the agreements, as per the Constitution and as per the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The member's first question related to the concurrent laws and their interpretation. We can have concurrent governments in two different ways. We can have three provinces, such as Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta, that have concurrent laws. They are all doing their own thing in different areas. We can have different orders of government, such as the municipal government creating laws for roads, provincial government creating laws for health care and the federal government creating laws for defence. We can have concurrent things going on.

In the case of overlap, where we are into the same area of jurisdiction with the federal government,--and the Tlicho agreement has very limited law making powers to start with, so there are not a lot of areas it would be making laws--then the federal law would prevail. There is no contradiction or inconsistency there.

Also, for all intents and purposes, in most cases if there is a conflict with a Northwest Territories law the Tlicho law would prevail because it is basically a parallel government and hopefully the duties of who is doing what will be sorted out so that there is no overlap in jurisdiction.

I can say that to date--with the board that I talked about earlier in my speech, that delivers the social services, health care and education--there is great cooperation between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Tlicho government. I think they will work out their laws and their services and deliver them very effectively. To some extent they have already done it and this will just be put into NWT law. I think it is a very forward thinking way of having all these governments work together.

[Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, April 19th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I am very excited to be able to rise today on such an auspicious day as the day of the aboriginal summit, where 70 first nations leaders from across the country, at the invitation of the Prime Minister, met and talked about moving the partnership and the agenda forward.

To move this forward, we have a perfect example of that spirit of today in action as we bring Bill C-31 to the House. I think there is general support for the spirit of self-government and land claims among first nations so I think today is an exciting day for everyone in the House.

I rise to support Bill C-31, which would give force to the Tlicho land claims and self-government act. By enacting this legislation, we honour Canada's longstanding and respectful relationship with the Tlicho people.

Last year, following more than a decade of negotiations among the Tlicho and the Governments of Canada and the Northwest Territories, an agreement was signed. This agreement is the central feature of the bill before us today.

Bill C-31 will achieve certainty for the exercise of the Tlicho aboriginal and treaty rights within their traditional territory, over almost 20% of the Northwest Territories. It will resolve outstanding land claims, which have been a barrier to economic development, and it provides the Tlicho with self-government powers and control of land and resources, which will enable them to become true partners in the growth and development of the Northwest Territories.

Under Bill C-31, the Tlicho will gain control of 39,000 square kilometres of land, which represents approximately 19% of their traditional territory. The legislation will also ensure that the Tlicho play a significant role in the management of land, water and other resources in most of their traditional territory.

This legislation enables the Tlicho to realize their inherent right to self-government. Bill C-31 would see the creation of the Tlicho government, democratically elected and accountable to its citizens. The Tlicho government, elected by Tlicho citizens, would have jurisdiction over social and cultural issues and use of Tlicho lands and resources.

In essence, Bill C-31 provides access to the governance tools needed to safeguard culture, improve social services, and bolster the economy. I am convinced that the Tlicho leaders, given their astute approach to development, will put these tools to good use.

The Tlicho have entered into a 10 year intergovernmental services agreement with the Governments of the Northwest Territories and Canada to harmonize delivery of social programs and services to all residents of Tlicho communities through the creation of an agency to be established under territorial legislation.

Under the terms of the Tlicho agreement, community governments will be created by territorial legislation, in each of the four Tlicho communities, to exercise municipal types of powers. Much like municipal councils across Canada, these governments would operate water and road services and enact zoning bylaws.

Not all residents of these communities are Tlicho. To ensure that the interests of all citizens are represented adequately, the agreement includes specialized election rules and regulations. For example, non-Tlicho citizens can qualify to vote, and 50% of council seats will be open to non-Tlicho candidates.

The legislation before us would guarantee Tlicho representation on the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water Board, alongside other aboriginal peoples. The Tlicho would also receive a share of royalties from resource development in the Mackenzie Valley.

The legislation includes a payment of approximately $150 million over the next 14 years. The Tlicho wisely have chosen to use their initial payments of this money to repay debts accumulated during negotiations and to invest approximately $500,000 per year in post-secondary scholarships for local students. This careful, long term strategy is rooted in Tlicho tradition. At the heart of this ancient culture is a capacity to adapt to change, an ability to thrive under challenging conditions.

Several years ago, a former chief, Jimmy Bruneau, recognized that the Tlicho needed to make a concerted effort to prepare for the future and protect their way of life from a rapidly spreading flood of powerful cultural and economic influences. Chief Bruneau spoke of the need to “be strong like two people”, to blend northern and southern cultures and to learn from aboriginal and non-aboriginal sources.

Today, the wisdom of Chief Bruneau's strategy is evident in the success of several Tlicho endeavours. Local businesses, for example, are earning substantial revenues by serving the diamond industry. A committee services board ensures local control of schools in four Tlicho communities and the Tlicho have also developed a run of the river hydroelectric generating facility, an airport and a long term care facility. Each of these accomplishments resulted from the Tlicho's ability to negotiate successful partnerships with governments and private sector organizations.

The Snare Cascades generating plant, for instance, was made possible by an agreement between the Tlicho and the territorial power utility. Many of the social services enjoyed by the Tlicho are delivered through a deal with the government of the Northwest Territories. This collaborative approach has also led to significant economic development.

The Tlicho negotiated an impact and benefits agreement with both Diavik and BHP, the two largest diamond mining firms in the region that support this claim. These agreements have helped provide jobs and training opportunities for Tlicho people and contracts for aboriginal firms. A partnership between Nishi-Khon and SNC Lavalin recently received a prestigious engineering award for work on the Diavik mine site.

Diamond mining in the Northwest Territories continues to draw the attention of international investors and companies not only for the quality of gems extracted, but also for the calibre of local contractors. The partnership formed among the aboriginal and non-aboriginal companies are helping to build capacity in northern communities, ensuring a sustainable and stable economy.

Today, aboriginally owned companies in the Northwest Territories generate more than $100 million in annual revenue and employ more than 1,000 people. This economic activity has a significant impact on Canadian prosperity. Stable, self-reliant aboriginal communities are able to participate fully in the national economy. As many people said today at the summit, everyone is interdependent and what helps any of us, helps all of us. The success of Tlicho serves as a model for other first nations, inspiring them to realize dreams of their own.

Thirty-five years ago Chief Jimmy Bruneau and the right hon. Jean Chrétien, Indian affairs minister at the time, shook hands. That event was captured on film and came to symbolize a turning point for both cultures. Today Canada works in partnership with aboriginal communities to help them fulfill their aspirations. The Tlicho, in turn, partner with private and public sector groups to realize culture and economic goals.

The legislation before us would continue this tradition and in fact has already fostered several new partnerships. Prior to finalizing the deal at the centre of Bill C-31, the Tlicho negotiated overlap agreements with its aboriginal neighbours. These agreements clearly delineate the rights and responsibilities of all parties.

A close examination of Bill C-31 would reveal that the Tlicho people have done their homework. They have conducted hundreds of consultations and information sessions. The Tlicho people voted overwhelmingly to ratify this agreement. More than 93% of the eligible voters cast votes and more than 84% opted for the agreement. In October 2003 the Government of the Northwest Territories also ratified it.

I am convinced that Bill C-31 will usher in a new era of improved relations among first nations and Canadian governments. The signatures on the agreement confirm that the comprehensive claim process works, that careful negotiation can produce a deal that satisfies the needs of aboriginals and non-aboriginals alike.

I would like to express my appreciation for the care, perseverance and initiative of the Tlicho leaders during 10 years of negotiations. By consulting with aboriginal communities, stakeholders and the general public, they have helped make the agreement more powerful, relevant and effective.

The agreement at the heart of Bill C-31 is significant for a number of reasons. It is the first of its kind in the Northwest Territories and the first in Canada to combine land claims and self-government in a single document since the Nisga'a treaty. The Tlicho agreement is sure to inspire renewed confidence at negotiating tables across the country. First nation leaders will consider Bill C-31 an important milestone that provides a clear way forward under Canada's inherent right policy.

The bill demonstrates that the Government of Canada can work with aboriginal people to arrive at agreements tailored to the specific needs of each community. This agreement was signed on behalf of the people of Canada and I believe it is incumbent upon us to do our utmost to ensure that a decade's worth of hard work will not be in vain.

At today's aboriginal summit Phil Fontaine talked about a study by Harvard University and what was needed for success among communities. It was found that genuine self-rule which provides first nations with the power to control what happens on first nations lands and capable governing institutions that exercise power responsibly and reliably are the key.

That is exactly what the agreement in Bill C-31 would do. We have been entrusted in the House of Commons with the aspirations of a people. Today, I ask the House for its support in providing the tools needed to build the community envisioned by the Tlicho people and I ask the House to adopt Bill C-31.

[Aboriginal Affairs, April 19th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for giving the House another chance to celebrate this historic day in Canada. The Canada-Aboriginal Peoples Roundtable is the first event of its kind. More than 70 aboriginal leaders are meeting right now here in Ottawa to work in collaboration with the Canadian government.

The event, chaired by the Prime Minister--and I can tell the hon. member that when I was there this morning it was very moving--will serve as a starting point in a new partnership to work toward new priorities in key areas that are important to the well-being of aboriginal Canadians, such as health, education, economic development, housing and achieving results. The government is committed to closing the tragic social and economic gap between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians.

[Indian Affairs, April 19th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, that is the exact approach the minister is taking. He is working with Chief Moses.

When we come up with a claim agreement, in any claim, and this would explain an answer to a number of claims, there has to be a settlement that is reasonable for the aboriginal people and reasonable for the rest of Canadians in the situation.