Industry committee  Yes. Well, the answer to your question is no, we would not want a system like the Interac system for credit cards. It may have fortuitously worked well for Interac back in the mid-nineties, but as I said earlier, we need to change it now. Just really to echo what Professor Lee

Industry committee  Well, of course, there's nothing to stop you using a debit card to make your purchase, in which case you'll get that. On your point about variety, you know we could argue that consumers all want to wear white shirts, and if we just made them wear white shirts, then they'd all be

Finance committee  Yes. Well, the answer to your question is no, we would not want a system like the Interac system for credit cards. It may have fortuitously worked well for Interac back in the mid-nineties, but as I said earlier, we need to change it now. Just really to echo what Professor Lee

Finance committee  Well, of course, there's nothing to stop you using a debit card to make your purchase, in which case you'll get that. On your point about variety, you know we could argue that consumers all want to wear white shirts, and if we just made them wear white shirts, then they'd all be

Finance committee  I cannot cite one for you, no.

Industry committee  I cannot cite one for you, no.

Finance committee  Yes. I agree with my colleague Jack Carr, actually. The answer is that cash is a high-cost form of payment, so the consumer who pays cash pays $2 more for the good, as it should be, because he—or she, rather—is using a costly form of payment.

Finance committee  No, I cannot, but I'm a believer in competition. I don't have a study, but you're talking about—

Finance committee  We look at prices. One of the things economists do is believe in competitive markets. Prices will move to costs.

Finance committee  See, I would turn this around to you and say that in every single market we see in our economy, which we believe to be competitive, we would believe that prices correspond to costs. So why would you not believe that in this case?

Industry committee  Yes. I agree with my colleague Jack Carr, actually. The answer is that cash is a high-cost form of payment, so the consumer who pays cash pays $2 more for the good, as it should be, because he—or she, rather—is using a costly form of payment.

Industry committee  No, I cannot, but I'm a believer in competition. I don't have a study, but you're talking about—

Industry committee  We look at prices. One of the things economists do is believe in competitive markets. Prices will move to costs.

Industry committee  See, I would turn this around to you and say that in every single market we see in our economy, which we believe to be competitive, we would believe that prices correspond to costs. So why would you not believe that in this case?

Finance committee  Just very quickly, in the debit area, what government needs to do is reduce the barriers to entry and encourage entry, as I said earlier. If they achieve that, then we will get more competition and consumers will benefit. In the credit area, just to follow on from one thing Jack