Canadian Heritage Committee on May 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I think we've gone over time, Ms. Ashton. I'm sorry.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I am not misinformed. I would appreciate an answer on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm going to move on to the Conservatives for the next round, to Mr. Gourde, Jacques Gourde, for five minutes, please.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait, thank you for being with us here at the committee.

When you took up your position, about five or six years ago, you were seen as being a breath of fresh air for CBC/Radio-Canada. Now we get the feeling that the CBC is on its last breath. You have done a lot of work, you and your board of directors, to try to balance the budget, but there is still a deficit. The flagship is sinking, however, as the CBC's ratings prove.

Do you see Radio-Canada as a lifeline to rescue the CBC?

[Catherine Tait]

I think I already gave my opinions about the CBC's performance at our last meeting. We did point out that, yes, there has been a drop in the television ratings in the English-language market, but not just at the CBC. That decline is happening in all English-language markets. However, we are seeing a significant rise in ratings on the digital platforms. CBC is reaching almost—

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I am going to interrupt you, Ms. Tait, because I do not want to make you repeat everything you have already said.

The Minister of Canadian Heritage spoke to the media and announced that she wanted to change the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada. Oddly, almost at the same time, one week apart, the media reported that you may be considering a merger of Radio-Canada and the CBC.

Was political pressure brought to bear on you to go in that direction, you or your board of directors?

[Catherine Tait]

Not at all. I am going to say it again: There will be no merger of CBC and Radio-Canada. We are looking at how to compete with the digital giants, so we can find solutions for the digital future.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Tait. So the deliberation comes straight from you.

Radio-Canada has managed to incorporate the identity and culture of Quebeckers and francophones outside Quebec, and the ratings prove that it is a success. Unfortunately, the CBC does not seem to have managed to do the same thing, and the ratings prove that as well. Why has the CBC been unable to incorporate English-speaking Canadian culture in order to succeed?

[Catherine Tait]

Mr. Dubé, can you answer that question?

[Marco Dubé]

Madam Chair, I will be happy to answer the member's question.

Mr. Gourde, I think that allegation is false. There is no doubt that Radio-Canada is distinctive; I entirely agree with you. That also applies to the distinctive nature of the CBC among anglophones in the rest of the country. The CBC is number one in most markets with its morning radio show. Every week, the CBC reaches a great many Canadians, who are getting younger and younger, on its digital platforms. The CBC is a leader among English-language podcast producers. I think the CBC's relevance is apparent. Judging the CBC on the performance of conventional linear television in the most competitive market in the world—

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Dubé, but I do not have a lot of time left.

Ms. Tait, what is it that characterizes Quebec's francophone culture? What is it that characterizes anglophone culture outside Quebec, elsewhere in Canada?

[Catherine Tait]

If I may say so, we are talking about several cultures. Certainly the French fact and the francophonie are very important, especially for our Radio-Canada audience. Nonetheless, there is still a strong attachment to the CBC in English Canada, but it is much more diverse. There is a huge difference between the anglophone and francophone audiences, but they are both very important for Canada.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

The CBC's anglophone audience does not identify with the CBC. Has the CBC become too Americanized?

[Catherine Tait]

Not at all. We broadcast almost 100% Canadian content during prime time. We are well aware that English-speaking Canadians still feel tremendous loyalty to our content. If I talk about—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 19 seconds.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait, what characterizes anglophone culture and who could change things at the CBC?

[Catherine Tait]

We talk about our communities. We talk about indigenous experience in the north. We talk about experience in western Canada. We talk about all these things. English-speaking Canadians have their own culture too. You can talk to Ms. Thomas, who is sitting beside you, about that.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I now go to the Liberals and Ms. Jenica Atwin for five minutes, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Tait and Mr. Dubé, for being with us this afternoon.

I'm a new face on this committee, just kind of joining in here, and I'm really happy to have the opportunity to ask some questions today.

As you mentioned, CBC is a very large corporation. There's lots going on and lots to do. I'm just curious: Do you have conversations with other public broadcasters globally or provincially about the changes and challenges that public broadcasters are facing?

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely. I'm the chair of a thing called the global task force for Public Media Alliance, and that group is six of the largest public broadcasters. We meet regularly, and we talk about challenges.

I'm delighted to say that we'll be hosting the annual meeting of public broadcasters here in Ottawa in October to talk about the issues that we all face— issues of disinformation, issues of financial challenges, issues of identity—and the role of public broadcasting in the future.

I can reassure the committee members that our industry is in crisis, not just CBC/Radio-Canada but the entire industry. You've heard it from other witnesses.

Rather than be over-indexing on performance pay, I would urge this committee to think about the solutions for the future of domestic media in this country—not just public, but public, private, news and entertainment, because we are in crisis. I've been in this business 40 years, and never before have I seen such great pressure on our domestic industry, and it is very worrisome. We see people disappearing, companies disappearing and production houses shutting. It is extremely worrisome. It's terrible to lose one individual employee, let alone 140.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Would you have any suggestions for some of those solutions that might be put forward that could be helpful for our committee?

[Catherine Tait]

I could go on for hours, and I will let the minister invite her expert panel to have some reflection on that. I think sustainable, long-term funding is one of the solutions, and I look forward to being able to converse with that panel when they are announced.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

How might other organizations be adapting to the changes in, say, the advertising market, given that hundreds of millions of dollars that used to be relied on may no longer be available? What kind of shifts are taking place?

[Catherine Tait]

The advertising industry is also under extreme pressure. We've seen a decline in traditional television and advertising. At CBC/Radio-Canada, we've also been able to increase our digital advertising but nowhere near at the same rate. You've heard the digital pennies versus linear dollars analogy.

All of us are looking at how we produce the same amount of content and how we deliver the same amount of information in more efficient ways. To Mr. Champoux's question, how do we transform the way we produce the content so that it's more efficiently done rather than at the higher costs of the past?