Fisheries Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I would suggest that the tool is there. It's the new agreement that was just signed.

It's about stopping for a minute to think about what the seven-year moratorium looks like. That in itself won't return the fish to the spawning grounds. We have to have a broad discussion around the impacts and effects that we are seeing from climate, predation, illnesses, warming waters, warming trends—everything that's affecting the salmon. There's one opportunity and we have to get it right. What does that look like?

This is the first time we've ever pushed for a political agreement or diplomatic intervention like this. Now the window of opportunity is open for Canada. It's not restricted by the Pacific salmon agreement and the confines of the agreement that only allow you to meet a border escapement at the low end of the range, which is 42,500. That won't get the salmon to return to their original wild stock state.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. They are very informative.

By way of introduction, I'm going to tell my colleagues about a film I saw on the weekend in Baie‑Saint‑Paul, Ocean Seen from the Heart. This amazing film, which I recommend to everyone, was directed by Marie‑Dominique Michaud and Iolande Cadrin‑Rossignol. It is originally in French, but subtitled in English.

According to the Quebec film, which is making the rounds internationally, humans should not think that their actions to improve the state of the oceans will be effective if they themselves do not feel personally involved with the oceans. Everything is interrelated.

Some leading Quebec scientists took part in the film. They include Mario Cyr, a diver originally from the Magdalen Islands whom I met when I went there and whom my colleague Mr. Cormier surely knows as well, Lyne Morissette, who has appeared before this committee several times, and Hubert Reeves, an astronomer with an all-encompassing view of humanity. All these people went to places around the world where initiatives were under way to restore the natural order.

Chief Frost, I know that what I'm saying resonates with you, because you have exactly that perspective. You talk about conservation, and we have two avenues for working to restore the natural order, which is a term I prefer to use instead of “stock rebuilding”. It's more about restoring the natural ecological balance of the marine environment and improving the land-based human relationship with that environment.

With that in mind, two things must be taken into account: conservation and our relationship with fossil fuels. I'd like to hear your comments on the funding allocated to the recovery of endangered marine species versus the funding still being invested in fossil fuels today, in 2024. These fuels create more pollution and, by extension, contribute to climate change. Shouldn't we rethink the ratio of those investments, meaning increase investments to restore the natural order of things and reduce investments in fossil fuels?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

With respect to options and climate adaptation impacts and effects on the environment, Vuntut Gwitchin is sitting on the richest oil and gas reserve in North America. We're one of the nations in Yukon that has select lands called category A lands. We have surface and subsurface rights. You will never see any mineral development or any mining development on our category A lands. The elders have advised that we protect them.

You can look at your climate strategy and the goal of meeting your targets by 2030. Canada's specific agreements speak about the need, moving forward, to protect 30% of the land mass by a specified time. We have all of that in Yukon. It's protected. That will contribute to Canada's targets, and I think we are working collaboratively with Canada to address this.

We have pristine areas of protection already across the Yukon. I've highlighted and Tim has highlighted the pressures from the two hydro dams, but mining is also a huge pressure. We have legislation in effect in Yukon that's attempting to govern what a relationship looks like with the environment and protecting the environment. It's important that we look at land use plans, land use measures and outcomes in the Yukon, and that's a part of our agreement. Canada has a broader obligation to Yukon as well, to Yukon first nations, to effectively implement the land use strategies that will protect some of the areas that we speak about.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Could we look to your land use system as a model and apply those principles to other regions of Canada where the oil and fossil fuel industries are likely to operate? Do you think we should do better?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I wouldn't speak for the rest of Canada, but I will speak for the Yukon.

We are 11 self-governing first nations. We have fundamental rules and laws that apply to us, which govern our way of life. We have signed off on a 28-chapter agreement that clearly puts in place tools and measures that allow us to advance our interests. The interest we always hold first and foremost is protecting our way of life before anything else.

We see the Yukon River chinook salmon, the coho salmon and the chinook salmon on the Porcupine drastically declining. We are now having a discussion on the species at risk. That's a conversation we will have with Canada and with our partners. It breaks my heart to have to speak that way, but that's the reality. We have done absolutely everything, yet at the same time, climate is affecting our environment and our land.

If you look at Ni'iinlii Njik park and look at the fishing branch wetlands, we have what is referred to as “the wandering”. The salmon get to the spawning grounds, the headwaters, and the water disappears over the course of the winter. The salmon eggs and the fry do not spawn and return.

Climate is affecting us no matter how much we protect the environment or what we do. It's a reality we have to face collectively, and it's a conversation we need to have internationally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now move on to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

My first questions are for you, Chief Frost. I want to build off some of the things you were talking about.

You mentioned the decision by your community to close down fishing. You've spoken quite eloquently about the connection between salmon and the way of life of first nations and the 11 self-governing first nations within the Yukon.

I wonder if you could speak to the impacts on first nations' way of life that the closure of this fishery has had, and how that contrasts with what happened before that closure was necessary.

[Chief Pauline Frost]

Thank you for the great question.

Imagine taking a lollipop away from a child. You're taking something away from the community that they've enjoyed for millennia.

At the same time, we have put in place the tools that allow us to control the outcomes that are necessary for the better good of humanity, the better good of our community. We have been, in north Yukon, taking things to unprecedented levels. For the first time, last year we closed down all freshwater fishing, any type of gillnet fishing in our tributary.

That was not easy, I can tell you, as the chief. It was not easy for me to do that, but we also saw that the step we took set a precedent, because we used the tools in our self-government agreement that allowed us to put the laws into effect. There are sections in our agreements—16.4.2, 16.5.1 and 13.3.4—that are administration of justice tools for implementing measures to protect and conserve. Before anything else, conservation is of the utmost priority for my community.

This is about traditional knowledge, the practices of our historical people. When we speak of scientific knowledge and trends, we need to incorporate the knowledge of the people. It will resonate and go a long way, from the headwaters to the ocean, to the 60 or 70 communities along the river, to all indigenous people. It will resonate conservation before the rights of one individual, ensuring the rights of the people, so that we can, seven generations from now, still see wild salmon stocks returning to our tributaries.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

There is a lot that can be learned from everything you just said and from all the practices as we move forward in protecting this vital, keystone species that is so important to so many.

You spoke in your opening testimony about the illnesses that salmon are contracting. I wonder if you could speak a bit more about what you're seeing as far as illnesses go in those washing up on the shores.

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I am not a scientist; I will tell you that now. I rely on my colleagues, who are all scientists, to give us the data and do the analysis for us.

I sit on the Yukon River panel, so we hear a lot of testimonials. We hear a lot of reports on ichthyophonus, which seems to be the new trending illness that the salmon contract on the way. It appears that it comes from the warming temperatures and the warming waters. It means they don't make it to the spawning grounds. It's not harmful to humans; the salmon are still edible.

We don't know a whole lot about this. What I can say is that scientific assessments are being done. Last year was huge for us in the Yukon because the United States decided they were going to take some 500 chinook out of the main stem tributary to do studies on ichthyophonus. The results of the studies will not bring the salmon back.

We cannot continue to do scientific analysis on salmon. I think this seven-year moratorium will allow us a huge window of opportunity to look at the trends we are observing, whether in illnesses, overharvesting or warming temperatures. We have data loggers all along the river. We have telemetry sites along the river. We have sonar along the river. That still does not give us the answers.

The question you asked is a question that I cannot answer because there are many factors implicated in the demise of the salmon.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you. You provided a lot of really valuable information in that discussion. I appreciate that.

I'm going to ask my last question of Mr. Gerberding. Thank you for being here.

My question is perhaps a quick one. You were talking about the hatcheries and the fins being clipped, which makes the fish highly recognizable. Can you clarify, if you're aware, whether the fins of all the fish coming out of the hatcheries are clipped or it's just a certain percentage of the fish that are being clipped? How does that play into this?

[Tim Gerberding]

Not all of them are clipped, but a high percentage are. The concept is that you assume the clipped fish reflect the same characteristics as other hatchery fish, but not all of them are clipped.

If I could, I would like to take the opportunity to say something about climate change and efforts to conserve lands in the Yukon.

As Chief Frost said, Yukon first nations are really strong on conservation. They're trying to preserve their way of life. However, it has to be stated that in Yukon, only 8% of the land is settlement land. The other 92% is non-settlement land. The Government of Yukon is responsible for managing that 92%, and the Government of Yukon simply isn't doing a really good job of managing salmon habitat.

Somebody asked about climate change and efforts to reduce fossil fuels. The Government of Canada has a carbon tax, for example, and it's been very controversial. What happens in Yukon is that the Yukon government rebates to mining companies all of the carbon tax they pay.

I live in Dawson, Yukon, which is where the Klondike gold rush happened. Ninety-five per cent of the placer mining in Yukon happens in the Dawson region. Those placer miners are the biggest polluters in Yukon, at least on a per capita basis, yet they're paying absolutely no carbon tax. It just doesn't make sense. They're releasing huge amounts of fumes—carbon—into the atmosphere.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is responsible for managing salmon, but they have delegated that responsibility when it comes to so-called Yukon placer authorizations, which give placer miners the rights to literally relocate a salmon stream, mine it out and then put it back where it was, on the assumption that it will continue to be good salmon habitat. That's never really been proven.

The point I'm trying to make is that DFO needs to start to get tough with the Government of Yukon. The Government of Yukon doesn't care much about salmon. I mean, they like to pretend they do, but they're not taking any action whatsoever.

As I said in my opening comments, if we're going to bring back the salmon, we'll have to start doing things differently. You cannot promote mining and then give the miners the carbon tax back so they can continue to spew all of this carbon into the atmosphere. It just doesn't make sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. You've gone way over the time that Ms. Barron was allotted.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Chief Frost.

The Yukon River is 2,300 miles long, with 1,400 miles of it in the U.S. territory and 900 miles of it in Canada. We have a quotation from the CBC:

Pauline Frost...said the agreement will only work if everyone does their part along the whole length of the river. If that happens, she said everyone will benefit.

Do you think you're going to have the agreement working on the whole length of the river?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

We have been doing this work now for well over 20 years. We have a relationship with the Alaska Association of Village Council Presidents. We have a relationship with the Tanana Chiefs Conference. We have built a relationship with the tributaries. In fact, this summer, we have a delegation coming to my community from the state of Alaska to see what it's like to come into an isolated community in the Yukon. It's an educational opportunity.

We have built regional salmon management plans that we've shared with the various communities along the way. I signed off on the inter-tribal fish commission as part of Canada's obligation in our relationship with the United States tribes.

We have a long way to go, but we also know that the tribes and isolated communities in the state of Alaska are identical to those in my community. Half of my community lives in Alaska. The numbers that we have for our self-government agreements.... Half of my citizens are across the border. They are United States citizens. They will comply. They will be advocates. They will advocate for closures. They have advocated for closures.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

How is the enforcement of the law on the Yukon River? Is there any IUU fishing or poaching taking place? How strict is compliance with the law on the river?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

On compliance, at least from my perspective, the first nations self-regulate. They have control.

With respect to enforcement, we have not one DFO fisheries officer in the Yukon, so we regulate and manage ourselves. They moved all of the enforcement agencies out of our territory. This morning, I requested from the regional director general a presence in my community.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Chief Frost, going back to the statement you made that the agreement will only work if everyone does their part, we need that kind of enforcement on the U.S. part of the river, given that just about two-thirds of it runs through the U.S. What kind of commitment have you received from the United States that they'll watch the poaching that's happening on their side of the river?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

We have a commitment from Governor Dunleavy, and he signed off on the agreement. He negotiated the agreement in good faith with his colleagues at the Yukon River Panel, the tributaries.

We met just a month ago and we have full-on commitment from our colleagues across the way. We also have a commitment from the Alaska Department of Fish and Game to monitor and enforce, much like Canada's—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Chief Frost, how was it in the past, leading up to where we are today?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I will not speak to what happened in the United States. I will say that we understand there may have been pulse openings and closures in Alaska. There may have been fishing outside of the pulse openings and closures when there were salmon restrictions on fishing put in place.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Chief Frost.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. Gerberding.

I heard you mention that you were once a gillnet fisherman on the Yukon River. What do you think the effect of netting a river could be?

I'm from Newfoundland. It's unheard of to net a river in Atlantic Canada. It's just not done. What do you think the effect of gillnetting that river has been over the years? If the salmon returned, would you return to gillnetting?

[Tim Gerberding]

There's no doubt that gillnets select for the larger fish. The effect of gillnetting on the river—and I should say that it is the most common way of fishing, on both sides of the border—has been to selectively weed out the larger fish, so that is a factor.

I don't imagine I'll ever return to fishing. It would be great if my kids would. I don't think gillnetting would be appropriate at this moment in time. It's too selective for large fish. I think it's probably going to take a generation or more to rebuild the fish.

To answer the question about gillnetting, it does take out the big fish, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes to finish out the first hour.