Foreign Affairs Committee on April 17th, 2024

[Cameron Hudson]

Thank you for that question. That could be a Ph.D. dissertation, so let me try to give you a couple of reference points.

As I referenced in my testimony, I think one of the trends we are seeing is this spread between many aging leaders and a young population demanding...and seeing online, on social media, what freedom looks like, what democracy looks like, and what human rights look like and recognizing that they don't have those things where they are. The world has become much smaller through social media and the Internet, so as you have these aging leaders holding on to power more and more, either through judicial and legislative means or through outright coups d’état and the like, I think one factor is the social tensions that exist in the country.

I think there's also, more globally speaking, a rise of illiberalism. It's the influence and the power of alternative models that are being presented by Russia and by China to these countries. As we talk about African countries increasing their partnerships, wanting to increase their partnerships and not being dependent upon these kinds of donor relationships that have defined much of the post-independence period for them, they see in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Turkey and all these new partnerships different political models that they can also use as reference points.

I think we're seeing a dilution of our influence.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just quickly on this, does economic growth have anything to do with it? In the Arab Spring, the argument was made that contracting economies in the Arab world were responsible, but it seems to me that Africa is growing at a fairly rapid clip, at least most of Africa.

Does economic growth have something to do with it, or the negative growth that we're seeing in some of the African countries, like Libya, Sudan, Equatorial Guinea and some of the other countries?

[Cameron Hudson]

Yes. I think it's both the economic growth and the distribution of wealth in these countries. If you look at a conflict like the one in Sudan, what put people in the streets in Sudan was the failing economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We go next to MP Khalid.

You have three minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. I really appreciated what you all had to share with us today.

I really believe that with a post-colonial Africa the boundaries as drawn for all of these nations have a big role to play in how conflict is occurring and why that conflict seems to become more and more permanent, as Monsieur Vircoulon said when talking about the DRC.

I want to talk about the relationship of the global north with Africa and the multilateral partnerships. Canada, as I'm hoping you are aware, has a Canadian ombudsperson for responsible enterprise to manage humanitarian efforts and human rights while conducting enterprise.

Perhaps I would ask each of you to briefly comment on this. What role do you think Canada specifically can play to empower African nations and to find that balance of working with them, as opposed to being just a donor state?

We will start with Monsieur Vircoulon, please.

[Thierry Vircoulon]

I'm not quite sure I understand the question when you talk about empowering these countries. I believe that these countries are not only autonomous, but also sovereign.

This is in fact reflected in the policy they are pursuing by multiplying partnerships; this is a rather disjointed policy that is not thought out in a very strategic way at the moment.

I think we need to refocus on converging interests and figure out what the converging interests are between Canada and certain specific African countries, not Africa, because Africa is basically 54 states. This convergence of interests is the basis on which we can open a dialogue and build a true partnership.

Right now I'm hearing a lot about partnerships, but I think there are many partnerships that lack partners. Building truly effective partnerships requires a real convergence of interests.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Tieku.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Professor Tieku, you have no more than 15 seconds to respond, please.

[Dr. Thomas Kwasi Tieku]

Colonialism is part of it, but one single thing that is a major driver of instability and challenges on the African continent, apart from borders, is food. If you read the literature carefully, any time there's food insecurity, it's usually followed by political unrest, and political actors take advantage of it. If you fix food insecurity, chances are you are most likely going to have better stability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Khalid.

We now go to MP Perron.

You have a minute and a half.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vircoulon, with respect to the Democratic Republic of Congo, or DRC, the United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo, or MONUSCO, has begun its gradual withdrawal from the country.

What is the final assessment on that, and what can we learn from it in terms of effectiveness going forward?

How is the problem in the Democratic Republic of Congo more a governance or security problem?

[Thierry Vircoulon]

MONUSCO, the UN peacekeeping force in the DRC, does indeed have to withdraw at the end of the year or early next year. That's the timeline that has been set. We will see whether it is respected.

It is important to understand that this is part of a broader movement to end major peacekeeping missions in Africa, since the Malian government basically kicked out the blue helmets, and UNAMID, the African Union-United Nations Hybrid Operation in Darfur, came to an end in 2019.

There are now only two major missions left on the continent, that is, missions involving more than 10,000 men. One of these missions is in South Sudan and the other in the Central African Republic.

Both the Mali and the DRC missions are withdrawing at the request of these governments because they were very unhappy with the missions. I will not talk about the mission in Mali because it is a special case. However, with respect to MONUSCO, which was created in 1999, we are now in 2024 and there are currently seven million displaced persons in eastern Congo and about 150 armed groups.

So this is a negative track record. When you look at that record and you look at the cost, which is $1 billion a year, you really get the picture.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

For a final minute and a half, we go to MP McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Tieku, listening to your testimony today, I wonder if you could comment on the youth, peace and security agenda. It seems to me that having young people involved in peacekeeping is key here. That's what I'm hearing from you. Could you expand on that a little bit for us, please?

[Dr. Thomas Kwasi Tieku]

I agree that having the youth in different aspects of African political life is going to be key. The median age is 18.8, for example, and yet the median age of African leaders is about 62. There's that mismatch. Having the youth in different aspects is going to be very important. Having them in peacekeeping operations can be very important. Especially having women in the peacekeeping operation can be very important. It can also be one way of distracting them from getting mobilized and joining armed forces or terrorist groups.

That peacekeeping piece can be very helpful, so I agree with you that getting the youth involved in that will be very helpful.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Certainly, we have a fantastic ambassador for women, peace and security, and it's been shown time and time again that peace is more stable and more likely to be maintained if women and young people are at the table. I think that's excellent.

Mr. Hudson, is there anything that you'd like to add in the very short time that I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Answer very briefly. You have 10 seconds.

[Cameron Hudson]

No, thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I think that's all I'll do, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

Allow me to thank Professor Tieku, Monsieur Vircoulon and Mr. Hudson. It was very insightful, and I know that all members of this committee are very grateful for your time and expertise.

We'll suspend the meeting for five minutes. We don't know when the voting will be taking place.

Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, before you suspend, there have been discussions among members from all the parties on this committee, and I think that, if you seek it, you'll find unanimous consent that the committee continue to hear from the next panel, that the committee suspend when there are five minutes remaining on the bells, and that the committee come out of suspension when Ms. McPherson has rejoined us virtually after she has attended to her duties as whip in the House of Commons.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

That's excellent.

The meeting stands suspended.