Foreign Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

Sure. An example is Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General of the UN. He gave tremendous pride to Africans. It was an important part of having a good understanding of Africa.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Within Canada, we should try to find pathways and promotions that are merit-based, or sometimes accelerate them, to have those types of cultural competencies on the ground on both the diplomatic side and the military side. Is that right?

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have another 10 seconds if you'd like to elaborate.

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

Yes, you should be able to get those people deployed.

I have some people coming to my office saying they've been trying to deploy on peace operations, but they can't because there are so few opportunities. We have so few posts in peacekeeping.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming and for providing insight through their comments and responses.

Professor Gazibo, since you have been overlooked by our colleagues so far, I'll turn to you. You have carried out a whole series of work, with a particular focus on democracy, but also on China's increasing power. I would like to perhaps draw a link between the two issues.

I agree with my colleague, Mr. Zuberi, that we must show an interest in Africa for Africa's sake, and not in response to the involvement of other powers. However, we must face the fact that other powers are now occupying an area that, as you pointed out, was left vacant by a number of western countries, including Canada. These other powers include China and Russia, for example.

I want to draw a link between democracy and the increasing power of China and Russia. As we know, these countries want to show that democracy isn't a good system. Do you think that these two countries are disrupting the development of democracy in Africa?

[Mamoudou Gazibo]

Thank you for the question.

I worked on China. I went to Beijing a few years ago to conduct research on this issue. According to diplomats and researchers, China is actually quite different from Russia. Right now, Russia is certainly trying to disrupt democracy, freedom and security. However, China is basically interested in stability. Of course, China won't promote democracy. However, if a democratic regime works with China, it won't try to overthrow the government or corrupt the democratic system.

We must understand that we're dealing with emerging powers that differ greatly, that sometimes compete with each other and that compete with western countries. This competition takes place on different levels. It can be political, as in the case of Russia. That country has a real political agenda, as also demonstrated by its foray into certain countries such as the Sahelian countries, the Central African Republic and others. In contrast, China mainly competes at the economic level. There are also other players that we don't hear much about, such as Turkey, Brazil and the United Arab Emirates. The context is highly complex.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In your opinion, the new silk roads aren't the result of Communist China's political ambitions.

[Mamoudou Gazibo]

There are certainly both economic and strategic objectives underlying these new silk roads. These new silk roads are accompanied by the construction of naval bases, in particular in Djibouti and Walvis Bay in Namibia. There's also a technological aspect to them. That said, we can't say that the aim is to transform African regimes to mirror the Chinese model. I think that China can live with the regimes and systems as they stand. Take the example of Niger, which recently experienced a coup d'état. There was a period of observation. However, once things settled down, it was back to business as usual, even though China had been on good terms with the ousted regime.

It's important to differentiate between the powers. They don't have the same intentions, especially with regard to the African continent.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Italy recently announced a €5.5 billion investment in Africa in education, training, agriculture, health, water and energy. To date, a number of projects have been developed as a result of Italian investments.

Given that Canada and Italy have a comparable gross domestic product, clearly Canada lags far behind Italy in terms of investment in Africa. Is the Italian example worth following?

[Mamoudou Gazibo]

Yes. I was talking earlier about the capability‑expectations gap. This means that Canada isn't investing the necessary resources. I'm not an expert on Canada's policy. However, if we go back 20 years, clearly its policy of concentration has led it to abandon many countries.

As my colleague said earlier, Canada isn't investing in security issues in Africa. Canada doesn't invest enough. It focuses much more on the mining industry. Yet other countries, such as Turkey, which have a significantly lower gross domestic product, continue to invest much more than Canada.

Apart from the northern European countries, Canada is actually one of the western countries with the most to offer on the African continent. It doesn't have a colonial past and it isn't seen as dominating. It has none of the arrogance sometimes attributed to France or the United States. It has a history of peacekeeping and building schools. Canada is also viewed as a welcoming country, where even foreigners can achieve their full potential. Canada has a lot going for it, but the methods that it uses—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Professor Gazibo, I'm terribly sorry, but I'll have to cut you off. We've gone a minute over.

We next go to MP McPherson.

You have five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for all of this interesting testimony. It's been very enlightening.

I would like to talk a bit about peacekeeping. Obviously, we have not lived up to our obligations with regard to peacekeeping in any framework. We know that the current government promised a huge bump in peacekeepers, and that has not materialized.

I'm very disappointed to see that there are only two women peacekeepers—military personnel—in Africa, particularly considering our feminist international assistance policy. One of the six pillars is “peace and security”, with a focus on ensuring that women are part of the solutions, knowing that peace when women are involved is, of course, a much more lasting peace.

Dr. Dorn, what is stopping Canada from having more peacekeepers? What is stopping Canada from having more women wanting to play a role in peacekeeping in the African continent?

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

I know many women military officers who want to deploy and have complained that they've tried for more than half a decade. There is a large group. Women make up approximately 16% of our military, so I don't think it's a question of resources.

I've spoken with almost every CDS in the last 20 years to ask why and to push for more peacekeeping. What I generally get is risk aversion. They don't want to deploy in some areas. I spoke with CDS Vance, and he didn't want to put women north of South Sudan because it is so dangerous there. That's what he said to me.

It's very much a sense of where it is in their military priorities. I've been scratching my head for 20 years. I came back to Canada from the United States because I wanted to contribute to Canadian peacekeeping because it had been such an important factor. The disappointment of seeing Canada be reduced from number one to now number 67 has hit me. I'm always trying to understand that. I'm thinking of writing a book about it. The primary factor is that there is a reluctance from the Canadian Armed Forces. There's more risk aversion, and there isn't the political will to push to make sure that it happens.

I know I can get in trouble for saying this, but it is my best assessment after a decade of trying to figure out this problem.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One of my colleagues asked whether money is being spent properly, whether this is the best way to do this. In my mind, I always think of the cost of peacekeeping compared to the cost of conflict. Of course, the cost of conflict is vastly higher.

I'd like you to comment on the African continent now. The African Union plays a larger role. What are the implications for Canada's trade relationships, diplomatic relationships and relationships around the world when we don't live up to our peacekeeping obligations? What costs do Canadian pay when we're not present?

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

I think there is a big cost, but I'll answer by speaking in the positive.

I have met so many military officers who've said they went to the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre. That existed from 1994 until 2013. We don't have that anymore. We don't have a place in Canada where you can train military, police and civilians all together in peacekeeping. We used to bring in people from around the world.

I worked at the Canadian Forces College. We have students from over 20 countries. That really helps our reputation.

Without a contribution in peacekeeping, we still have the laurels from those early contributions, when we added for 40 years a thousand peacekeepers. That reputation dies over time, and then we can't use it.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One thing I think about when I'm thinking about peacekeeping in the region is that we're all seized with the conflict we're seeing in Sudan. Just last week, I met with members of the Tutsi community in the DRC. What they are describing is that a genocide is potentially unfolding, similar to what we saw in Rwanda 30 years ago.

Of course, Canada played an important role with Roméo Dallaire at the time. We didn't play enough of a role; there was an incredible loss of life. However, if we are looking at the same situation unfolding in the region, does Canada have a role to play? Can you talk about what the implications could be on that region if Canada stepped up?

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

Absolutely.

Canada was the only country that reinforced its presence in Rwanda during the 100-day genocide of 1994. That was a very proud moment. I knew some of the soldiers who risked their lives to do that and suffered from PTSD afterwards.

For Sudan, when the Pentagon asked me to look at the draft resolution being considered for the Security Council, I said that the UN mission there was a special political mission and not a peacekeeping operation, that it was inadequate and that they needed to have peacekeeping forces. We really need a stronger UN presence. That mission has left Sudan in the face of the war between the two generals.

There's a huge need to have peacekeepers there, to have a presence, to have people who can negotiate some sense between two people who have personal animosities and have created institutions that have institutional animosities.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to the second round. The first two members have three minutes.

Next on the list is Mr. Epp.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off.

I have a quote from Senator Dallaire. He stated that in UN peacekeeping circles, Canada is known as a “big talker, little doer”. It doesn't take on the long-term missions. I had assumed it was because of our lack of recruitment or lack of bodies.

Am I hearing correctly that it is not so much that? We do have individuals who are willing to assume peacekeeping roles, and it is a matter of political will that we're missing.

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

I agree with that, yes.

If you look at what we deployed in Afghanistan, you can see it was 3,000 for 10 years. I think it's quite possible to triple or quadruple our numbers in peacekeeping very easily. There isn't a personnel shortage that would make you go from the current 44 peacekeepers around the world to double or triple that number.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Your comment earlier was that General Dallaire had accomplished a great deal, even with a reduced amount of 300, yet by your own numbers, we're at 36, barely 10% over that amount. Is the political will exclusively residing in the upper echelons of our military, or is the military under pressure?

[Dr. Walter Dorn]

The military takes instructions from political leaders. When I asked Justin Trudeau why we aren't doing more on peacekeeping, he simply said that they're working on it. It's been paralysis through analysis.

Which mission do we go to? There have been so many studies about where we could place troops, but not the political will to say yes, go do it. The UN was ready to give us the position of force commander in Mali, but cabinet didn't push that through. The UN even waited two months for us to come forward with a name for the force commander in Mali.

They're just cases where Canada is not taking the initiative to get the military to do this work.