The pension call centre wait times went from 62 minutes in 2022 to 23 minutes in 2023. They are currently 19.3 minutes. Better is definitely possible. I think there are ways that we can improve those numbers still, and we are working to do so, but they have gone down every single year for the last three years.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Gray and Ms. Ferreri.

We'll now go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

On May 1 the portal opened up online for the dental benefit. What does that signify with regard to the movement toward the digitalization of government that I know you've made a priority?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

It says something about the digitalization of government. It also says something about our customer-centric user experience. When we spoke to Canadians, individuals over the age of 70 actually said that they preferred to utilize the telephone. We implemented an IVR system for those over the age of 70. That was how we signed up the first 1.8 million individuals.

On May 1 we transferred everyone, the whole program in its entirety, to a web form as part of our digital first initiative. I want to be very clear, however, that digital first does not mean digital only. For those individuals who need a helping hand, they will still be able to use the traditional method of visiting a Service Canada office in person or calling over the telephone.

It means that for the tens of thousands of people, and eventually millions, who will use this service as this continues to roll out over the many months, there will be one last person standing in front of you at a Service Canada office, therefore allowing you to get better service no matter which channel you decide to use.

May 6th, 2024 / 5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much for that. I think it's a very important step, one that we obviously haven't seen before in Canada. I appreciate you sharing that information. I hope the success we've seen with sign-ups in particular continues.

Perhaps you can share this with us, Minister. In the first appearance you had at this committee, I don't expect you to remember the question, but I did ask you about what we see in other democracies. I know that Estonia is frequently held up as an example of the digital turn in terms of government and what that could do for citizens. I know that you can't really make a straight comparison. In the most obvious case, you have a huge difference in population, which, among other major differences, doesn't really allow for a meaningful comparison. At the same time, if a country like Estonia can move toward a digital turn in a very positive way on the whole, I wonder what that means for countries like Canada.

In other words, are you looking at other models abroad when it comes to moving toward digital? If so, where are you looking? Are there particular examples of programs or other initiatives that you're seeking to model?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

This is a great question. Obviously, it is more efficient for us as a nation not to have to reinvent the wheel all the time. Canada as a government used to be the third lead in digital services. We've dropped to 32nd. Now we need to climb back up the ladder. That means there are 31 other jurisdictions that we can learn lessons from.

You mentioned Estonia. By coincidence, I happened to go there to study their digital service ecosystem some five or six years ago. Their prime minister told me that there are only two things that you can't do online in Estonia: You can't buy a house and you can't get married. Everything else you can kind of do online. We've seen Ukraine even during this time, with war at its doorstep, being able to implement new digital technologies.

In terms of more comparable western nations, there's the United States. If anybody really wants to understand BDM and what's really going on in that process, I'd recommend the book Recoding America. The first couple of chapters detail the benefit upgrade for the State of California. It faces a lot of the same challenges that we do here.

Australia has had a pretty good record. It implemented different digital services at the provincial level and is now looking to expand at the federal level. The U.K., as an example, already has the digital renewal of passports, which is something we hope to deliver by this fall.

We are looking all around the world and looking for partners in trying to do this in the most efficient and effective way that we can. Of course we'll look at places where it's already happened, because that gives us some benchmarks that we can go by.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

You and I have spoken in the past about blockchain technology. I know this is a real interest of yours.

Do you have any thoughts on how that particular technology could help to improve services for citizens, from a digital perspective?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

I can't say I have a direct, service-centric, deliverable blockchain technology that is going to roll out in the coming months.

As a general distributed ledger, blockchain is very good for issues of disclosure. You could imagine in the future utilizing blockchain technology for ownership registries or for basically any sort of database where you would want a real-time, public record that you could track, do research on or make available to academics. There are a variety of uses where that could be incredibly valuable.

I believe there are governments that are dabbling in different areas. I know there are private companies that are looking at carbon credits and the like.

There are lots of opportunities there. I think the immediate opportunity is from a Service Canada perspective. It tends more towards the customer user experience with AI, automation, machine learning and process orientation, etc.

Thank you for allowing me to nerd out at the HUMA committee. I really do think that in Canada we have some of the smartest people in the world. We're also a leader in blockchain, so there's no reason why we shouldn't be utilizing those technologies in the business of our government.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos and Minister Beech.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two minutes and thirty seconds.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'd like to talk about passports and how to make sure, based on what you've said, that we don't relive the drama of 2022.

I'm telling you this because I had to comment on the subject in an article for my political party. We were already hearing in the media that citizens could expect delays, probably because of the 45% increase. I don't know if that's the reason. It seems to me that the 2022 situation should have served as a lesson to Service Canada. We can't sustain such delays, which are unacceptable.

Are you planning to renew 10-year passports? Do you have the manpower and IT tools to meet this demand?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

I guess the first thing is, with regard to the situation in 2020, it is very crucial for all of us to understand why that happened.

We created a backlog of 313,000 passports—

5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Chair, on a point of order.

I can't hear the interpretation.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

Are we good? I will continue.

What had happened—very quickly, and then I want to move to the second part of your question—was that we had this unprecedented demand because people hadn't travelled for so long. Travel restrictions decreased, but at the same time, health restrictions had not, so we had passport offices that were at 40% or 50% capacity and still exercising social distancing, etc. It was a once-in-a-hundred-years global pandemic event.

That being said, you're right. It was absolutely foreseeable that we were going to see the increases in volumes. We have been adjusting accordingly. We implemented line mitigation measures and triaging. I'm working diligently to get Wi-Fi at all of our Service Canada offices, so staff can work the line and pull out those individuals who are there for something quick versus something that is longer. We're looking at extending hours. We're looking at providing more digital appointments.

Of course, every person, if they're ahead of the curve, can rest assured that they can mail in their application and have their passport back within 20 business days.

In the fall, when we roll out the renewals, it is my hope that we will be able to talk to most Canadians and tell them they don't have to stand in line at all. That's the future vision, but we have mitigation measures in the interim.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Madame Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes, please, to conclude.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you so much.

Minister, you referenced the report from the disability advisory committee from 2023 and that recommendation 5, which I sent you. There were three other ones related to the DTC, but I'm going to focus on recommendation 5.

My question is most likely for your officials and your team here.

Recommendation 5 out of that report said:

Use existing data sources from Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC), Statistics Canada, and the CRA to analyze the population that:

obtains the DTC,

the population that does not obtain the DTC certificate but is potentially eligible,

and the population that obtains other DTC-dependent services.

I'm wondering if any of that work has been done and if you can share the research with us.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

It is my understanding that, in fact, yes, some of the work has been done, and I am happy to share it. I'm also happy to open the floor if any of my colleagues want to offer anything in addition to that.

5:40 p.m.

Cliff Groen Associate Deputy Minister and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development

Certainly that work has been done, and we'll gladly share it. It is fairly technical. I wouldn't like to waste your time during this discussion, but we'll certainly follow up.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Great, and if you could share it with the whole committee, that would be super.

The number right now announced by the government for the Canada disability benefit going out to people is 600,000. Do you know where that number came from? Do you feel that 600,000 can be serviced in the time frame that's been announced by the government?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

I don't know specifically how that number was calculated. That's something we could endeavour to get as well. I'm sure it exists—that number didn't come out of just anywhere—but I am confident in the July 2025 timeline and our ability to make sure those payments are made starting in that month.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

My next question is really about the legacy software. You talked about infrastructure and the mainframe. You talked about COBOL. Is there anything you can share that talks about the lack of investment that happened throughout all the decades of governments that, like with the Prime Minister's home, hasn't been invested in properly?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC

The easiest way to say this—and I think this will be valuable for all members of this committee, just as members of Parliament, not even as members of this committee—is that, as a government, we generally have been very good at hiring project managers, building the next new thing, and then leaving it and moving on to somebody else. If we want our government to be more efficient at what we are doing, we need to focus on user experience. We need to hire more product managers, individuals who obsess daily about the individual experience that Canadians are having on the ground, and empower those people with the resources, tools and authority to make changes to improve those experiences, not once in a generation, not once in 63 years, but every single day. That's what happens in the private sector. That's what needs to happen in government.