Human Resources Committee on May 6th, 2024

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I would expect that some would be, but I don't have a breakdown with me. Again, I'd have to look at it.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Your department has provided information in the past that $669 million was paid to external contractors. Are you saying today that it might actually be higher than that because that did not include travel expenses for them?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I'm sorry. I was trying to see if we had the numbers available for you now. Could you just repeat that question?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

You have already confirmed at this committee previously that $669 million was for external contractors. You've just now said that some of this $48 million might also be for external contractors for their travel expenses and the $669 million might actually be higher. Would that be correct?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

First of all, that's not what I said, but I can update the $669 million. That is now roughly $700 million.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

We'll now go to Mr. Coteau for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thank you to the officials.

My first question is really around the opportunities that digital transformation brings to government in general.

When you sit down and think about the next five years, what does that transformation look like to you?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Do you want me to take up the whole time on this?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Give us just the big highlights. What does real transformation look like for a government?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Let me give you a very relevant example. We're rolling out dental care under newer but relatively traditional methods. We had an IVR system and now we have a web form. In all, that's going relatively smoothly and it's about as simple as we can make it, given the technology that we currently have.

I asked the Canadian digital service to mock up what this would look like with a digital credentials system. Of course, there was $25.1 million in budget 2024 for a single sign-on.

If you go through the current system, you really are reintroducing yourself to the Government of Canada all over again. What's your name, your address, your birthday, your spousal situation, etc.? A digital credential would actually allow you to sign in and then it would show all the information that the government currently has. It would ask if we had your permission to share that information with health, in this case, in order to be able to fill out the application. You'd only have to answer the additional questions.

That takes an eight-minute process with lots of room for errors and disruptions to something that could take 30 seconds. Then you actually would get your benefits card immediately.

You could imagine, in the future, actually filling it out on your phone in the dental office and going straight in and getting your teeth fixed.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I noticed on the CRA website that it's one of the conduits you can use to sign up for dental benefits. Is that correct?

Is that a similar process or is that a completely different process?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

For everybody listening here, the best way to sign up for dental is Canada.ca/dental.

There are links that happen between departments, so there was a connection from My Service Canada, as well as CRA.

There are multiple routes to get there from different places, but the easiest way is to go to Canada.ca/dental.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm going to give my remaining three minutes to Mr. Van Bynen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In your last appearance at the committee on February 5, you talked about the benefits delivery modernization program being the largest IT project in our history. We've heard a lot about costs.

I'd like to turn this around and have you explain the benefits and the values that investing in this digital transformation is providing for us.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

That's a great question.

The three major systems that are affected by this—CPP, EI and OAS—are of varying ages, from over 60 years old to just a little over 25 years old. These are legacy systems. Some of the systems that are running these programs are very hard to get developers for. COBOL is a language that was created in the fifties. EI has 160 bespoke applications that all have to be maintained in a cumbersome way.

Over time, it really starts to restrict the kind of policy that we can implement and it makes it a lot more complicated. Also, a lot of the technology and the technical debt associated with these projects are just no longer serviceable. There are mainframes that would be literally irreplaceable if something were to go wrong.

One aspect is that we are replacing the system and we'll have the assurance that $1.5 trillion in benefits that will be paid over the next decade will get to the people who need it.

From a transformational perspective, the ability to have user-centred design, have people able to go into an app to apply for EI, to check on the status of their services and to have another channel that provides service instantly—24 hours a day, seven days a week—is all empowered by this new service.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

It's great to see what the plans are.

Can you give us a brief update in terms of what we're seeing with BDM today?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Certainly.

With regard to OAS, we have finished the first release. There are 600,000 Canadians using the program today. They likely have not even noticed that we've switched over to the new system, which means it's operating correctly.

Release 2 will be a non-production model later this year. This is basically a full-blown test project for what we want to do in December, which would be release 3, when we will have 7.3 million individuals utilizing the new OAS system.

We would move into EI in early 2025.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

As well, there was a lot of noise about the backlog in the passport system. I'm wondering if you could give us an update in terms of the progress we've made in working on the passport system.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

There are a couple of things. One, the backlog is eliminated. Two, we have had record volumes, associated a lot with the fact that we're on the first renewal cycle of the 10-year passport. The 10-year passport came out 10 years ago, and now those people are coming back. That has meant, even in this fiscal year, volumes of over 100% of what we saw in the previous year. I have the numbers with me, actually. In 2022-23 we issued 3.3 million passports and in 2023-24 we issued 4.8 million passports. That's a 45% increase in volume.

Thanks to investments in new printers and new processes and efficiencies that we learned during the pandemic, we've been able to mitigate lines. We've been able to keep customer service standards relatively in check. If you get your passport by mail or in person, you can be assured that you will get your passport on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

Ms. Chabot, you have six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being with us again.

The 2024 budget announces investments to modernize the old age security pension and the employment insurance program. To my knowledge, this isn't the first time. Money has already been invested for this purpose, but I don't know what it was used for. So, once again, we're being told that investments are being made to modernize a system that dates back to another era and somehow prevents us from implementing the measures needed to improve the employment insurance program.

How much longer can we wait to modernize the system and ensure that it meets needs?

Access to employment insurance is problematic and the delays are significant. I spoke about this this morning in the House of Commons. I consulted some documents I have in my office and found that employment insurance is second in terms of the problems it presents.

How do we ensure accountability and promote excellence in services to Canadians? How do we ensure that Canadians receive timely service?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Thank you for your question.

I apologize for my French. I've been studying it since January 2016. I can now speak it a little, but I will answer in English. I apologize for that.

This is a good question. EI obviously is the most complex of all of the systems that are the BDM program. We have started to lay a good track with the Cúram system throughout OAS, which has set us up well to deal with the significant complexity that will have to be coded around EI.

With regard to timing, we will start in 2025 with a target to complete by 2028. With regard to EI modernization, which is being led by my colleague, who I believe was here just before me, that is being done simultaneously. It is my expectation that we will be able to walk and chew gum at the same time and conduct a significant modernization. Whatever that modernization may look like, we will be prepared to implement it on the new system.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

All right. Let's hope that this time you don't create any false hopes; indeed, there have been a lot of dashed hopes on this subject. I can tell you that the situation at our offices is pretty pathetic, because people come to us as a last resort. When a person has waited three or four months to receive benefits, they've had time to find a job. Very often, then, their application is no longer considered urgent. As a result, there are huge delays before any follow-up.

I'd like to talk to you about another file that I imagine is part of your responsibilities and concerns federal public service employees. This is the Phoenix payroll system. I think this is a firm commitment. Although the system was not ordered by your government, you've been in power for eight years and it's chaos. We read unbelievable things about this system, which has a negative impact on the people, the employees, who provide services on a daily basis and who do not receive fair compensation from their employer, the federal government. According to the Public Service Alliance of Canada, there are still 400,000 problem cases. We know that agreements have had to be made to try to correct arrears.

Seriously, Minister, when will we, once and for all, restore a reliable and fair payroll system for your workers?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I'll comment on both items.

First of all, with regard to the EI wait times, I'm happy to state that some of the investments, which were supported by a majority of members—I'm not sure who voted yes or no—have been paying off. Of course, when somebody needs EI, they need to get it immediately. The wait times for processing have improved by six days, year over year, between this year and last year, and wait times at the call centre are now 5.8 minutes on average, whereas two years ago, they were over 30 minutes.

We've made significant progress in lowering those wait times, although better is always possible—somebody said that once—so we'll keep working on that.

With regard to the Phoenix pay system, this is, of course, being spearheaded by my colleague Jean-Yves Duclos. I've had opportunities to see the status of that, both at the service committee and at the Treasury Board.

Generally, I agree that it is absolutely necessary for public servants to have their pay done on time. I started seeing the impact of that as early as my first few days as the parliamentary secretary for the Coast Guard, where the rules are really unique, and it was causing a lot of hardship for individuals.

I have confidence that we're going to be able to figure this out and pull through it, but I'd have to defer to my colleague on detailed analysis on timelines and the next steps.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

About this last question, I've read that artificial intelligence would be used to solve the problems of the Phoenix system. Indeed, artificial intelligence would be put to work.

Listen, that didn't reassure me, and it didn't reassure the thousands of workers either. I understand it's not your immediate responsibility, but we're talking about a service, a basic service to employees, which is their pay.

Reassure me that artificial intelligence will not be entrusted with the task of correcting this system.