Evidence of meeting #112 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for being here today.
Minister, is the benefits delivery modernization program over budget?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
No, the benefits delivery modernization program is not over budget.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
In 2017, the Treasury Board approved program authority for $1.75 billion. Then, in December 2020, the Treasury Board approved an amended program authority of $2.2 billion. On March 18, 2024, file Q-2229, a response from your ministry to an inquiry I sent, stated that the revised estimate was still $2.2 billion. Shockingly, less than one month later, budget 2024 added an additional “$2.9 billion over five years, starting 2024-25”.
Isn't that all correct, Minister?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
Well, I think we need to make sure that we don't confuse program authority with budgets. Previously, when I came before committee, I advised you myself of the number of $2.2 billion. I remember you asking me, “When are we going to get a revised number?” I expected that it was going to be in the budget, but there were no assurances as to that.
You have to remember this is in the context of a program that commenced in 2017 and is driving through to 2030. Over those 14 years, we have to—
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
The new number is $4.4 billion, which is $1.75 billion over from the original amount.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
—but you have to understand how these processes work, right?
When you're doing a large-scale IT project in an agile environment and you're replacing mainframes and programs that are in a lot of cases over—
May 6th, 2024 / 5 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Right. I'm sure it's very complex. It's actually the largest IT project the Canadian government has ever taken on.
You've confirmed that you're now at $4.4 billion. What is in budget 2024 says that the $2.9 billion in that budget is only to update the platforms for old age security and employment insurance. The $4.4 billion is whatever has been spent so far, and whatever you have in budget 2024 is only to do funding for old age security and employment insurance, so then what is the budget...? What is the amount that the CPP will cost? Because part of the benefits delivery modernization also includes CPP, and that is not included in budget 2024.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
I hate to correct you, but what you stated is incorrect. The total amount that has been contracted or spent so far is $1.1 billion, and the total budget for the program as of today is $4.4 billion.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Great.
In budget 2024, as I said, it only references updating OAS and employment insurance. CPP is not included yet in any of the information. Are you saying that CPP will also be on top of the $4.4 billion? That seems to be the way it's reading in budget 2024.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
The last time I was here, we had spent just a little over $800 million. We are now at $1.1 billion. We have authorities for up to $4.4 billion and, of course, CPP is also benefiting from the work we're doing now because it's all on the same platform.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
You're saying that the $4.4 billion is the end stop. That includes all three of the programs. You're saying that includes old age security, CPP and employment insurance.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
That is the number we have been authorized to work with, yes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
You don't seem to want to understand how that number was made. There was a budget that was put together for $1.7 billion or $2.2 billion a number of years ago, but unpacking the data models for OAS and for EI has allowed us to learn the complexities of the process and to update those numbers as we go. As the OAS—
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
I want to move onto something else, Minister. I'm very limited with time here.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Information that your ministry provided—again, Q-2229—on an inquiry I made asking for a budget breakdown on this project listed $48,978,755 for travel expenses. That's a massive amount considering the option for virtual meetings. Will you commit to tabling for this committee the detailed breakdown of the who, what, when, where and why of all of those travel expenses, that $48 million in travel expenses?
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Beech Liberal Burnaby North—Seymour, BC
I'm happy to share whatever expenses I can share with the committee without exposing commercial confidences. I'm happy to endeavour to do that.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Minister, are any of those travel expenses for external contractors?