National Defence Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

The final question goes to Mr. Collins.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Generals, welcome to the committee.

General Adamson, I'll start with you in terms of the commercial integration cell. I want to follow up on Ms. Mathyssen's question that she asked earlier in terms of working with industry.

You've highlighted the benefits, and I think some of them are very obvious. It's an expensive process that we're involved in. Relying on the private sector certainly helps us lower the cost, I would think, for some of these initiatives. Supporting industry also drives innovation, and we'll see benefits there.

I am fascinated with our increasing reliance on industry. There is the politics of industry itself. I'll raise the Starlink issue with the Ukraine-Russia conflict. That played out in in a very public way.

Some in the public might say that with an increasing reliance on the private sector, industry or for-profit organizations, there may arise in the future—and I'm not asking for your opinion on the Starlink situation—some question about security in partnerships, whether they're legal or not.

How can the public be assured that we're protected with those agreements, knowing that there's an element of politics with some of these situations that arise?

[BGen Michael Adamson]

Mr. Chair, that's a great question.

That's an issue and a concern that we have lived with as we've looked at standing up our commercial integration cell, because we want to make sure that there is no appearance of impropriety in dealing with a commercial company, such that their participation in this initiative would provide them with some kind of undue advantage on a future project or procurement capability. It's one that we've seen our allies come to grips with as well. You have to have very clear guardrails in place to make sure that you keep things appropriate.

I am much more beholden to policy advice in this position than I've ever been before, and I don't do anything without talking to my policy and JAG colleagues when we look at this. It's something that we're highly sensitive to, and something that is certainly looked at very closely as we go forward.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

General Frawley, on that same issue, in terms of private contracts that we have, there may be an element of politics in terms of positions that are held by corporations or individuals and the public's assurance that with the increasing reliance on private industry, the investments that we make will be protected in a time of conflict.

[LGen Blaise Frawley]

On the NORAD side, we don't see nearly as much of that type of contracting as we do in other parts of the government and within the Department of National Defence. Most of that would be on the U.S. side as opposed to the Canadian side, which I'm not at liberty to talk about.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

General Adamson, can I talk about the Wild West scenario that you talked about earlier?

With many issues, whether it's the space debris issue that was raised earlier or some of the nuclear threats that were talked about, there really aren't a lot of structured, international agreements at present that talk about the rules of space. Knowing that we have some state actors that are unwilling to assist in that regard in terms of formulating those agreements—Russia and China being top of the list—how do we move forward with our allies in creating some rules of order in an area where it is early days and still that Wild West scenario?

[BGen Michael Adamson]

That's a great question, Mr. Chair.

I'll highlight the combined space operations initiative, which currently comprises 10 nations—our Five Eyes partners, plus France and Germany, and Italy, Norway and Japan joined just before Christmas.

It's a body that is represented by nations from around the world that are like-minded in terms of advocating responsible behaviours. Collectively, we have the ability to call out irresponsible behaviours on the part of any nation-state or even a commercial actor that might be acting irresponsibly.

Other than that, what we can do collectively, with the voice of a number of nation partners, is maintain the moral high ground. From a Canadian perspective, I think we need to take a look at how it is that we employ assets in space and how our own industry operates in space, make sure that we're not doing anything that would call into question our behaviour in that regard, and set the example. I know that our allies are like-minded in doing that as well.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You highlighted the evolution of the space division in your opening. Can you talk about where we'll be in five to 10 years from now, or where you hope we will be?

[BGen Michael Adamson]

It's been an absolutely incredible journey these last couple of years. The space-mindedness of the Canadian Armed Forces has been increased. Our joint force understands how important space is to everything that they're doing, and also that they need to be sensitive to the fact that if that is degraded or denied to them, they need to be able to work through it.

I think that this educational piece is there. We will continue to do that over the next few years. We will continue to recognize capability areas that perhaps don't exist at the moment but might become an issue or a concern. Space domain awareness will go beyond the geostationary belt to cislunar space, as we watch more and more missions heading out towards the moon, Mars and potentially beyond.

Space is the limit. Who knows? I'll be interested to see myself.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Unfortunately, that brings our first hour to a close. This has been absolutely fascinating and a terrific start for the committee.

Just before I let you get your well-deserved lunch, if NORAD detects a space threat such that it needs to be activated, is Canada entirely dependent upon the U.S. response to any threat?

[LGen Blaise Frawley]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chair.

NORAD doesn't watch objects in space. What we do is watch terrestrial launches towards space. Of course, what we're watching for, predominantly, are ballistic missiles or missiles that could become hypersonic missiles. We also see all re-entries. We do this through what's called OPIR, or overhead persistent infrared. It's a satellite system that essentially watches the earth constantly.

Watching objects in space is absolutely a U.S. Space Command responsibility, and Space Operations Command. We're obviously concerned about anything that might have been in space for a period of time and could de-orbit and become a ballistic missile or hypersonic weapon. We're always watching for re-entries.

Again, we're not monitoring space specifically. U.S. Space Command does that, as do the Canadians in the SpOC.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is that a distinction or an activity that can stand in the current situation? You're monitoring stuff leaving and coming back in, but when it's out there, you're not monitoring it.

[LGen Blaise Frawley]

We're made aware of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yeah, we're made aware of it, but it's not NORAD looking at it.

[LGen Blaise Frawley]

No, it's U.S. Space Command, because that's their primary area of responsibility.

What's going to sort this out—I think it was asked in a previous session—is CJADC2. As we push information across all domains, all combatant commands, countries, NATO and NORAD, and are able to communicate and make decisions based on a pretty similar architecture or system, we'll have the information available that we need. However, we all have our specific focus areas. Our job is to defend North America, while Space Command defends space as best they can.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you for that—at least, I think it's thank you. I'm not quite sure. That's the point of doing these studies.

With that, colleagues, we'll pause to re-empanel. Again, I want to thank you for setting this study up. It's been quite excellent.

General Adamson, you're welcome back any time. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'd like to call this meeting back to order.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses for our second hour.

We have Maja Djukic and Guennadi Kroupnik, director general of space utilization. Welcome to the committee.

With that, I will ask Ms. Djukic for opening remarks for five minutes.

[Maja Djukic, Director General, Policy, Canadian Space Agency]

Good afternoon, Chair and committee members. Thank you for the invitation to speak about the Canadian Space Agency and its role in Canada's space program.

My name is Maja Djukic and I'm the director general of policy at the Canadian Space Agency. I'm joined by my colleague Guennadi Kroupnik, director general of the space utilization program.

The agency is the federal agency responsible for Canada's civil space program. We work with our colleagues at the agency to promote the development and peaceful use of space for the good of Canadians.

Under the Canadian Space Agency Act, we are responsible for coordinating the government's space policies and programs, leading activities to advance space research and the applications of space technologies, promoting the adoption of space technology by Canadian industry and encouraging commercialization of Canada's investments in space.

These functions require that we work with our colleagues across federal departments, including the Department of National Defence.

Space is important, and not only for its role in our security and sovereignty: In 2021, Canada's space sector generated $4.9 billion in revenues and contributed $2.8 billion to Canada's GDP. It directly employed over 11,600 Canadians, the majority in highly specialized STEM occupations, and supported more than 12,000 additional jobs in the wider economy.

Canada's space firms are also highly innovative, investing $547 million in business-led R and D in 2021.

Many of the activities that the Canadian Space Agency undertakes as the lead on Canada's civil space program contribute to safety, security and defence.

These dual-use assets underscore the importance of ensuring the resilience of space capabilities.

The CSA's three program areas—space exploration, space science and technology, and space utilization—align with our core mandate and functions.

Under the space exploration program, we lead Canada's participation in the international space station, our participation in the NASA-led Artemis program and scientific missions to explore our solar system.

Our space science and technology program helps strengthen Canadian capabilities in disciplines that are important to both civil and defence space objectives.

Our space utilization program, which Mr. Kroupnik is responsible for, ensures that Canada has the satellite capabilities to support our safety and security, to respond to economic opportunities, and to support scientific understanding of changes in our environment.

The RADARSAT Constellation Mission is a flagship example of a dual-use asset led by the civil space program and supports a wide range of federal responsibilities. It monitors the entire Canadian land mass and oceans on a daily basis, and the entire Canadian Arctic up to four times per day.

The Department of National Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces and our allies are the largest users of RCM data. They use this data for maritime and Arctic surveillance, real-time ship detection and in support of deployed operations overseas.

Ensuring the resilience of the RCM means protecting the Canadians who benefit from the services that it supports. In fact, we are currently developing an additional satellite to extend the operational life of the RCM. We are also in the early stages of developing a next-generation satellite system to succeed the RCM. This initiative is called RADARSAT+, and it will ensure continuity of essential satellite earth observation data to numerous federal organizations so that they can continue delivering services to Canadians.

Thank you again for the invitation to speak today. We’re glad to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

We have Mrs. Gallant for six minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The race to land on the dark side of the moon is on, and the Communists who control China appear to be winning this race. What defence and security threats could this pose for our nation?

[Guennadi Kroupnik, Director General, Space Utilization, Canadian Space Agency]

The Canadian Space Agency is working on the peaceful exploration of space. We are working with our partners on a peaceful return to the moon to stay and to work on behalf of humanity to advance exploration. It's not within our mandate to assess threats of other nations on their actions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

This is the national defence committee.

Given that neither Russia nor China is interested in taking part in the Artemis accords, which I think you obliquely referenced, should peace-minded countries be planning a type of NATO with a wider area of operation and responsibility in order to mitigate or deal with any potential security threats? Are they already doing that?

[Maja Djukic]

Mr. Chair, this falls outside of the mandate of the Canadian Space Agency. We cannot comment on those matters.

I'm happy to talk about why Canada is part of the Artemis accords. As my colleague Mr. Kroupnik said, we're in it to work with other like-minded nations on the peaceful uses of space.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Does the Canadian space division work together with the Canadian Space Agency at all? Do you have any of your personnel who are co-located in one spot?

[Guennadi Kroupnik]

We coordinate and collaborate with the Department of National Defence on many aspects, including the space division. We coordinate our space surveillance activities, and we have been discussing for a while potential participation in the exchange of personnel. We maintain a very close relationship.