Bill C-24 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

Criminal Code

[André Bachand, Progressive Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Berthier—Montcalm who, as has again been demonstrated, is very knowledgeable on this issue, much more so than I am.

The provisions regarding mere memberships in a criminal organization raise the whole issue of proof. They raise the whole issue of the charter. A balance must be struck. Unfortunately, I will be unable to answer the member's question as clearly as he would like, as I am not really knowledgeable about the whole issue and the workings of the bill.

Once again, mere membership only shows an intention and I would like to raise a few questions: proof, the charter, the presumption of innocence. It is a right. People are considered innocent until found guilty, with the exception of income tax and employment insurance. In the justice system, one is innocent until found guilty. In the case of income tax and employment insurance, people are first considered guilty and it is up to them to prove that they are innocent.

However, as far as the provisions regarding mere membership are concerned, I would say that it is one where the whole case law would have to be considered, and the member for Berthier-Montcalm knows much better than I do the difficulty in proving and maybe the possibility to make mistakes.

Then again, Bill C-24 solves many problems concerning definitions and numbers. But will maintaining provisions on the simple fact of being a member not bring back the whole problem of a clear and easily applicable definition? It is something we must keep working on and I certainly hope that all members, including my colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, will keep on doing so in committee.

[André Bachand, Progressive Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first I wish to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest, on a most important issue: Bill C-24 on organized crime.

Before I start, I also wish to recognize the work done by my colleague, the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, to inform and educate the caucus about the whole situation concerning this bill and the application of various pieces of legislation on organized crime.

I also wish to recognize the work of the member for Berthier—Montcalm who, for several years, has urged the House, effectively I must say, to raise awareness among elected representatives of the whole issue of organized crime, which, admittedly, has been highly and overly publicized in Quebec. Of course, the Bloc Quebecois has done an excellent job on this issue. During the election, it was the highlight of its platform. This did not translate into more seats, fortunately. But the issue is still important.

I am not a lawyer. Some will say this is good. However, when it comes to organized crime, not being a lawyer, I do not fully understand all the intricacies of this bill. Let us look at the issue in its broader context.

The first time I ever heard the term organized crime—and you will also remember this, Mr. Speaker, since we are about the same age—was during the hearings of the CIOC, the Commission of Inquiry on Organized Crime. It was in the early 1970s and, for one of the first times, the television stations were on the air for long periods of time broadcasting not the full hearings, but enough so that we could follow what was happening on a daily basis.

On this commission, which generated a lot of changes, sat eminent lawyers, including two who later had political careers at the federal level and another one who left the provincial political arena not too long ago. That just goes to show that it was an important commission that raised awareness about what was called at the time the “mafia” or the “mob”. What we learned from these hearings was absolutely incredible and the governments reacted. The legislation was overhauled.

At the time, we were not necessarily talking about the Hell's Angels and the Rock Machines. We were talking about the Italian mafia, street gangs and American mobsters. The Russian and the Chinese mafia were more or less active, but still an important issue was addressed. A lot of people ended up in jail. Public awareness was raised and both the police and the government acted. A few more mafia figures and mobsters were thrown in jail. That created a vacuum, which was quickly filled.

What we have to realize is that legislation like Bill C-24 will not, by and of itself, solve the whole problem of organized crime. A mere $200 million over five years will not solve the issue. Organized crime is changing.

What happened at the time is that small biker gangs in Quebec began to get together and fill the vacuum. There was a biker gang in just about every town that had a population of a few thousand people. But these gangs moved on to bigger things. They learned the ropes and they got organized, to fill the vacuum and work with the various figures in the mafia and the mobs.

The expression organized crime implies that criminals know how to get organized. This means that we must be smarter—when I say we, I am thinking of the legislators, but also of the law enforcement bodies, of the people involved in the enforcement of these laws and of the members of our justice system, including lawyers, attorneys and judges—and get organized.

An act was passed in 1997, but we quickly found out that it was flawed. During these months and years, organized crime got organized. But the federal government kept waiting, even though it knew there were problems with the 1997 act, which is the most recent one. Now, Bill C-24 will correct some of these flaws.

We on this side of the House realized one thing: the government does not have any vision when it comes to fighting organized crime. The Prime Minister once said “Personally, I do not care about vision and programs. Bring me a problem and I will solve it”. He was recognizing the fact that he lacked vision.

In the case of the Minister of Justice, the problem is glaring. People are shooting and killing each other, innocent victims are getting hurt, but she will not move. There is a consensus in the legal community and among police forces that the minister is not taking action. We had an election campaign but she still was not moving.

Finally, the minister woke up and, at last, she came up with a bill. Thank goodness.

But again, let us not fool ourselves. This is not a perfect piece of legislation. We will give it our support because it is truly a step in the right direction to correct deficiencies. However, because crime gets organised, parliament must also get organized in the next five years to monitor decisions, the jurisprudence, and listen to those in charge of implementing the legislation, the difficulty of the proof, while complying with our Charter.

We opposed the use the notwithstanding clause, as requested by Quebec. We thought it would be excessive, given the judicial and legislative process that the House could use. But we must get organized, and we are able to do so.

The great thing about this legislation is that it will simplify things. We will have to see what happens. Since a judge convicted a number of people under the 1997 legislation—there was a big gang of people indicted under that legislation awaiting trial—many have admitted their guilt. Why? Because they will get sentences which, without being reduced, will be in keeping with the spirit of the act.

So, since the judgement convicting people under the 1997 legislation, dozens and dozens of accused people awaiting trial have recognized their guilt. We are happy with that, because this will save months in detention and loads of money. These people might get away with lighter sentences. Not making out a case restricts the amount of information made available, and there are fewer informers.

This is why it is extremely important that Bill C-24 be passed properly and quickly. Hopefully, the government will listen to what opposition members—whether the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, the member for Berthier—Montcalm or some other members of the NDP or the Alliance—have to say. Anything that comes from the opposition is not necessarily bad but, between you and me, things that come from the government are not necessarily good either. There is a middle ground, however.

I hope that the good work of members in support of the government—because members are legislators; we are not here to complain for the sake of complaining, but to legislate—will be taken into consideration and that the minister will listen.

We wish that this bill will be effective. I am not sure that $200 million over five years will be enough. Where does this figure come from? How did the minister come up with $200 million? Was it just because it sounded nice?

I will, if I may, look at the costs before, during, and after the Quebec summit. How much is $200 million? The security costs for two Quebec summits and perhaps one APEC meeting add up to about $200 million. Where did the minister pull out that figure? This budget should be revised annually. We cannot say “Here is $200 million. That is it; now forget about us”. The minister thinks that with $200 million over five years everything will be fine. Is that it?

I want to thank the House for its attention and reiterate the basic principle: if criminals get organized, we must keep one step ahead of them.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-24, an act to amend the criminal code respecting organized crime and law enforcement and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

The bill has two main purposes: first, to provide new tools in the fight against organized crime; and, second, to respond to the 1999 supreme court decision in R. v Campbell and Shirose, which put in doubt the ability of police and police informants to break the law as part of undercover operations aimed at penetrating criminal organizations.

After years of the Reform Party of Canada, now the Canadian Alliance, fighting for tougher laws to help combat gangs and other criminal organizations, the federal Liberals have finally introduced some of the legislation we have been calling for. The fact is that the weak Liberal government lacks the political will to get tough on crime, particularly on organized crime.

It has introduced this legislation because of intense pressure from the official opposition and other opposition parties and because of the pressure from police and the public in general. Combating organized crime was part of the detailed justice platform released during the election campaign by the Canadian Alliance.

The penetration of organized crime into Canadian society is a very serious matter. Criminals move from jurisdictions with strong controls to jurisdictions with weak or no controls. This criminal activity undermines Canada's financial and social systems and increases the power and influence of illegal businesses.

A staggering variety of activities such as extortion, home invasion, murder, theft, drugs and arms trafficking, counterfeit currency and passports, migrant smuggling, prostitution, Mafia, casino and lottery frauds are additional costs to society at the expense of the taxpayer and at the expense of our future. These activities make our streets unsafe.

We in Canada are also concerned that the privacy of Canadian citizens could be unreasonably invaded. There should be sufficient protection and the freedom of law-abiding citizens should be preserved. The loopholes in the system and the law are not plugged in Canada. That is the main problem. Canada is a candy store for these criminals. Unfortunately criminals have the motivation to come to Canada and commit crimes because they consider Canada to be a crime haven.

The blurred vision of the Liberals has caused the dismantling of Vancouver port police. Everyone knows that. This makes the port a gateway for the importation of drugs and narcotics. It opens up the way for criminals and makes their jobs easier rather than tougher. It is a shame that the Liberal government gives international organized criminals VIP treatment while those same criminals, according to the Immigration Act, are supposed to be inadmissible to Canada.

I remember when I was on the immigration and citizenship committee that we introduced a motion to study fraud and criminal activities under the Immigration Act not for general immigrants but for illegitimate and criminal elements coming to the country. Liberal members refused that motion.

Previous legislative attempts to deal with the problem have been ineffective. Bill C-95 did not go far enough in providing the tools needed for the law enforcement agencies to fight organized crime.

Years ago, perhaps in the early 1980s, the government of the day not only ignored the recommendations of the law enforcement agencies but it even refused to acknowledge the existence of organized criminal activities in Canada. Since that time organized crime has significantly increased. Canada has now become a global centre and a haven for organized crime because of its laws.

Whatever the government does now it is too late and too little. The criminals are lightyears ahead of the law enforcement agencies. They have more resources, more money and better state of the art technology while the agencies on the other side even lack the law with tooth and are struggling to maintain yesterday's technology.

A Liberal dominated subcommittee of the justice standing committee on organized crime held in camera hearings on the problem and issued its report just prior to the dissolution of the House. I will talk about that report in a short while.

I also want to mention that I represented the official opposition as a member of the subcommittee on organized crime. Since the hearings were in camera I will not go into detail but will talk about some of the issues that are in the public domain.

It is sad that the recommendations of the subcommittee were not fully implemented through this bill. Even though the committee was a Liberal dominated committee, the bill of course would enhance the fight against organized crime, though not enough, and should not be delayed unduly.

I will now talk about the main features of the bill. There will be longer consecutive sentences for gang activity: up to five years for participating in a criminal organization; 14 years for carrying out indictable offences for the benefit of a criminal organization; and life for being the leader of a criminal organization.

A new definition of a criminal organization would be: only three members required instead of the current five; there is no need to prove that members participated in indictable offences in the five years preceding prosecution and providing that, in addition to indictable offences punishable by five years or more, offences can be prescribed as serious offences.

It is stated that the intention is to cover offences, such as prostitution and gambling, that are controlled by organized crime.

Another point is the protection of justice system participants. Threatening a judge, prosecutor, juror, et cetera, or a member of their family would be punishable by up to 14 years and murdering a justice system participant would be first degree murder.

The next point concerns police immunity. The solicitor general responsible for the RCMP or provincial ministers responsible for the police will be able to designate officers who may, in the course of an investigation, commit offences other than offences causing bodily harm, obstructing justice or sexual offences.

Forfeiture of property would apply to all property used in committing a crime rather than just property especially built to carry out the crime. Judges will have to determine whether the forfeiture is appropriate given the nature of the crime. Presumably a house may not be forfeited if five marijuana plants are found in it but it could be if 500 or 5,000 plants are found in it.

There are still many significant deficiencies in the bill that require further address or amendments. Even many recommendations of the subcommittee have not been addressed in the legislation. I was a member of that committee and it was a Liberal dominated committee.

There are maybe 10 points I want to mention. The relevant elements of existing legislation, resources, investigative and prosecutorial practices, should be deployed to their fullest potential and effective strategy to fill any gaps should have been developed and addressed in the legislation. The committee was concerned about it and it made very clear recommendations about it.

The criminal code should have been amended so that all its provisions related to organized crime activities could have been brought together in a specific part to be entitled enterprise crime, designated drug offences, criminal organizations and money laundering. This recommendation was not followed.

The criminal code should have been amended to allow for the designation of criminal organization offenders in a manner similar to that applicable of dangerous offenders and long term offenders provided for at section 752. This would allow, at the sentencing stage, after a conviction has been obtained, for the imposition of imprisonment for an intermediate period or for long term supervision in the community after a sentence of up to 10 years. The recommendation was not followed.

Section 184 and following the criminal code dealing with judicially authorized audio and video surveillance should have been amended to increase in non-criminal organization offences from 60 days to at least a 120 day period for which such activities could be authorized and renewed. This particular recommendation is very important if the Liberals were to listen to Canadians, to the Canadian Police Association and to front line police officers who are dealing with organized criminals. When police officers need to obtain a particular warrant they have to write about a thousand pages. A lot of work has to be done to obtain a warrant.

Once a warrant has been obtained it is valid for only 60 days, whereas the criminal activity continues for months and years probably. They then have to go back and do all the paper work again in order to obtain a warrant for wiretapping or other things. The recommendation is very important and I hope the justice minister will follow through with it. Since we are debating the bill for the first time, the government has lots of opportunity if it is sincerely listening to this.

The provisions of part VI of the criminal code should have been reviewed and amended so as to streamline and simplify the requirements and practices involved in the judicial approval and renewal of audio and video surveillance as a law enforcement investigative strategy. This recommendation was not followed.

Section 743.6(1.1) of the criminal code should have been amended to allow sentencing judges to order that offenders serve full sentences instead of half the sentences currently served, of incarceration without any form of conditional release in cases where there is evidence that a convicted person committed an offence to the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a criminal organization.

The criminal code should have been amended so that there was a reverse onus placed on a person convicted of an enterprise crime, a designated substance offence, a criminal organization offence or money laundering whose assets have been seized, to prove that these assets have not been acquired or increased in value as the result of criminal activity. There should be a reverse onus on the criminal rather than on law enforcement agencies to prove that. This is a very important recommendation.

If the convicted person were unable to discharge the burden of proof, as I mentioned, to the satisfaction of the court, these assets should be declared to be forfeited. This recommendation was not followed through.

The Canada Evidence Act should have been amended to codify and simplify the rules related to disclosure. The disclosure rules are so vague that jurisdictions in foreign countries refuse to co-operate with Canadian law enforcement agencies because of our stupid and ineffective disclosure laws.

The human resources expertise and technology levels should be sufficient to effectively combat organized crime. Unfortunately the funding announced by the justice minister today providing only $200 million over five years does not appear adequate and does not come close to the amount needed for frontline law enforcement officials to do their job effectively.

The funds allocated on a yearly basis would not significantly enhance police or prosecution resources when we consider that a relatively simple prosecution could cost as much as $10 million. Those resources are inadequate.

A national tactical co-ordinating committee should have been established to promote the exchange of information and sharing of experiences among field operators in order to fight organized crime. This recommendation made by the subcommittee on organized crime was not followed through again.

Because of lenient disclosure laws in Canada, as I mentioned earlier, law enforcement agencies from other countries refuse to share sensitive information with their Canadian counterparts on organized criminals operating in their country. This jeopardizes our efforts to combat crime and demoralizes our frontline officers.

One of the most disturbing features of the legislation is its failure to make it a criminal offence to be a member of a group already proven to be a criminal organization in Canada. Contrary to the justice minister's suggestions, this provision does not make participation or membership in a criminal organization illegal unless it can be proven that the person had the intention to facilitate illegal transactions for that organization.

The fact that an organization is a criminal organization would have to be proven in each particular case that goes before the court resulting in needless duplication of resources, expertise and prolonged criminal trials.

The bill fails to adequately protect other key players in the fight against crime. In particular, provincial justice ministers, MLAs, MNAs, MPPs are not granted the same level of protection as federal parliamentarians, despite the fact that they are directly responsible for the enforcement of these provisions. They need to implement the law.

We all know the case of Michel Auger who had the courage to stand up against crime and other journalists who were not given protection.

In conclusion, I urge the government to make the legislation tougher, to provide more resources to police and to encourage the aggressive use of the new tools.

In particular, the recommendations of the subcommittee, regarding forfeitures, wire tapping and serving full sentences, have not been addressed or have only been partially met. Therefore, I hope the justice minister will be open to considering amendments that would further streamline the Canadian justice system and would offer Canadians a greater measure of security through the legislation.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to stand today to speak in favour of Bill C-24. I was pleased to listen to the Minister of Justice and I heard the comments made by members of the opposition who seem to have a full understanding of the issue.

If it is not understood in the Canadian public at large, it is well understood in the House by all parties and all speakers that the scale of organized crime in the country and internationally, the magnitude of the threat that it poses to our society, is something of real urgency. The bill addresses it and needs to be passed quickly and put into force.

I would like to speak about the variety and complexity of the problem internationally as well as to individuals, communities, government and private enterprises in Canada.

Internationally there is more than a trillion dollars a year in earned profits from criminal activity worldwide. The figure is growing every year. It has not been hampered and restricted by deficit cutting that governments around the world have had to undergo through the 1990s. These profits have been soaring. In terms of the critical nature of this threat, former President Clinton identified organized crime as the number one threat to national security in the post cold war world.

The citizens of my constituency, Vancouver Quadra, understand the chilling nature of the threat. It is much broader than just gang wars. It involves the supply of drugs to our schools and children. It involves property crime that is attendant on drug addiction which is fed by organized crime. It involves home invasions and the security of our homes. Ten years ago who in our society had heard the chilling terms of terror such as home invasion, carjacking or drive-by shooting? These are new terms of terror which are directly connected to the scourge of organized crime in society.

In terms of our economy, billions of dollars of laundered money are put into our society which is based on a market economy. It is corrupted by them. They debase the vigour of competition in our market economy and threaten our economic viability.

They also threaten our economic institutions. Corruption and organized criminal activity in scams with respect to banks, credit card fraud, telemarketing fraud, insurance fraud and stock market fraud are all part of the growing expanding scourge of organized criminal activity which is sapping the economic strength of the country as well as the safety of our citizens.

In terms of government agencies themselves, we have had troubling information about the infiltration and corruption of people working in government agencies at all levels in Canada and internationally.

These are major challenges for our society. They require new tools, many of which the bill provides. If we think about how we will apply those tools we have to think carefully about the new nature of criminal organizations.

Criminal organizations working in Canada and around the world are no longer monolithic crime families that are suspicious of each other or competitive with each other against criminal projects for turf. Today criminal activity is conducted in a highly networked, complex, flexible and international fashion. Criminal gangs are no longer fighting for turf with each other although that happens, and we know too sadly of the horrors in Quebec of criminal gang wars. However that is not the typical character of organized criminal activity today.

Organized criminal activity works in networks, works in cells across criminal organizations and across borders to uniquely compose a criminal operation across boundaries, gangs and criminal products. It requires a very special approach from law enforcement agencies which is not our traditional approach. It requires those agencies to be more flexible and more resourced in their response. I will be splitting my time.

I would like to comment on the new tools that are necessary and that are being applied by the bill. Monetary resources are needed for police agencies. Those have been provided for over the last two years with increased budgets and there are projected further injections of financial resources for the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies. That is critical.

The bill presents other tools. There will be stiffer penalties for participation in criminal gang activity and broader definitions of what constitutes criminal gangs and criminal activity. There are very important provisions to create the offence of intimidation of officials in the criminal justice system. It is a critical point of protection that is necessary and overdue.

The expanded definitions and increased ability to seize the proceeds of crime are important in the bill. There must be an ability to seize and forfeit property in a fashion that is efficient, quick and hits at the heart of the enterprise nature of organized crime.

The mandatory reporting provisions for suspicious financial transactions are important. Fifteen billion dollars was estimated as the amount of laundered funds from illegal activities in Canada last year.

I will conclude by addressing specifically the unique and changed nature of organized crime in society. It is flexible and networked. It crosses boundaries and is cross organizational. It is necessary to have an integrated and co-ordinated approach across the collection of criminal intelligence, police operations and prosecution of crime. These have to be working as a seamless whole.

The information and intelligence gathering must not be in a secretive closed chest fashion among competing law enforcement agencies. It must be shared in a mandatory fashion, but it must be secure and centrally analyzed. It must be disseminated on a need to know basis and the success and experience of operations have to be fed back into that intelligence system.

The operations themselves must be joint force operations, drawing across law enforcement agencies for the best and the most appropriate resources that can be uniquely composed and targeted on any particular criminal activity. It should then be shut down, redistributed and refocused on other criminal activity if it is to mimic the flexibility and the networks of criminal organizations themselves.

There must be an effective link to intensive prosecution which the bill and the organized criminal justice policy address. Dedicated legal advice must be present at the very earliest stages of an investigation to deal with the incredible complexity of criminal investigations and prosecutions, laws of disclosure, laws of search and seizure, laws of wiretapping, and laws of proceeds of crime. The best legal advice must be used at the beginning of an investigation right through to an intensive prosecution to make sure those prosecutions are successful.

I repeat that organized crime is an immense threat to society. Its magnitude is overwhelming. The bill needs to be passed as soon as possible.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in this debate and to follow the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, a new member of our justice committee who brings a great deal of credibility to the debate and great oratorical skill to the House of Commons.

Our party, as are I think all parties without exception, will be supporting Bill C-24. It is somewhat of a reincarnation of legislation we saw in the last parliament. It is very important and timely to the process of dealing with the ongoing plague of organized crime in Canada. It will allow police officers and prosecutors, both through legislation and in some instances through increased resources, to combat and turn their undivided attention in some instances to the growing problem of organized crime.

Neil Young sings of rust never sleeping. Well, crime never sleeps. Crime is unfortunately becoming more and more active in many communities and I am not talking only of the big cities. Crime is becoming prevalent in small towns and rural parts of the country.

We are particularly vulnerable in coastal communities, I hasten to add. Sadly, since the disbandment of the ports police in the country that is even more the case. We are seeing an obvious attempt by organized crime to profit from illicit acts of importation, in many instances of contraband materials. I am talking about drugs, which are the chief trade, as well as guns, pornographic and contraband materials brought into the country under the radar of our current law enforcement capacity. One would hope with the greatest optimism that this legislation will help address, at least in part, this very complex problem.

There is a great need for this legislation. The RCMP, who arguably is the most affected by the issue, is I think cautiously optimistic. The new RCMP Commissioner Zaccardelli alluded to the fact that organized crime has plans to use bribes to destabilize the country's parliamentary system. That came as a shocking revelation to many when they read it in the newspapers. It raised eyebrows across the country. It demonstrated the profound epidemic of organized crime and the lengths that organized crime will go to on occasion to exert influence, and I am obviously not talking about a positive influence.

That epidemic has for many years been virtually ignored by the current government. It is therefore very encouraging to see it finally recognize the issue and give it a priority after seven years.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2000, the Quebec public security minister, Serge Ménard, urged the federal government to use the notwithstanding clause to outlaw membership in gangs such as the Hells Angels and the Rock Machine. Because such a move might be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional, he was urging the government to give at least an indication that it would not hesitate to use the notwithstanding clause.

When it comes to organized crime, one thing everyone understands is that it does not play by the rules. It does not abide by the laws, whereas of course law enforcement, prosecutorial services and the government not only have to put laws in place but stay within the boundaries and confines of those laws, and rightly so. Therefore we are sometimes talking about a distinct disadvantage on the part of our system of enforcement vis-à-vis outlaw gangs. Extraordinary times sometimes call for extraordinary action. That is why, I am sure, the suggestion was made that the notwithstanding clause might be invoked in those circumstances.

The Department of Justice clearly suffers from constitutional constipation at times, I think, from this fear that somehow if a law is made that might be deemed unconstitutional we should refrain from enacting it.

This law will be challenged in our courts, as many laws before it have been challenged. That is part and parcel of the process. In particular, I can guarantee that the legislation that expands police powers will be the subject of numerous court challenges. We can bank on it.

We simply cannot hesitate in or refrain from introducing legislation in the fear that somewhere in the land, whether it be in the Supreme Court of Canada or in some other court, a judge may decide that this is not within the bounds of the constitution. That is part of our judiciary. That is part of the process. I guarantee that this legislation will be challenged, like other legislation has been.

However, when dealing with organized crime and the repercussions of having organized crime go unchecked we sometimes have to make laws that expand the current envelope and go beyond the realm of what has been the normal practice.

While the Quebec minister was expressing these concerns, on the very next day, September 13, the day after the call from the security minister of Quebec, Mr. Michel Auger, a journalist in Montreal with the Journal de Montréal , was shot five times in the back. This was most likely the action of and has been attributed widely to outlaw motorcycle gangs. I am informed that it was likely the act of someone who wanted to join one of the gangs and was part of the movement to get in, to show somehow that this person had what it takes to be involved in this type of activity. They are sometimes the most dangerous, these puppet groups, these individuals who are trying to ingratiate themselves, to earn their patch so to speak. Mr. Auger's fate and the fate of many others who have expressed opposition to organized crime and have raised the spectacle of somehow trying to get this issue under control has been that they have sometimes faced the wrath of the gangs themselves.

Criminal gangs are far-reaching now. They are branching out. As I said in my opening remarks, they are found in communities across the country, whether they be rural or urban. Many Canadians are starting to feel particularly unsafe because of this audacious presence. In the city of Halifax, there are many people who are very concerned. Individuals such as Matt Jardine and others who live in Halifax are concerned about what is happening in their city.

An outlaw motorcycle gang, the Hells Angels, now has its colours flying in radiant lights in front of its clubhouse in the city of Halifax. This is the affront to democracy. It is an affront to policing and the safe, secure feeling that people should have in their communities.

There is a real need for this legislation. Again, it is encouraging that it is being brought forward now. The minister often uses the phrase in a timely fashion, and this has been timely for many years. The time is here and we are encouraged by that.

Organized crime also is becoming very prevalent in many circles where it was traditionally unseen, such as the Internet. The Hells Angels, I am told, have one of the largest Internet sites available. It is information that is now transmitted through cyberspace, not only across this country but across the United States, North America and the world. That is very disturbing. Obviously the ability to transport information can be an extremely positive thing, but organized crime can use it for a very nefarious purpose, so there is certainly a need for legislation in that area at some future time. It is not addressed by this legislation.

The bill has taken on a very broad background, if we will, in terms of what types of organized crime we are dealing with. Eastern bloc European gangs have emerged, such as the traditional Mafiosa-Italian connections, and there are the snakehead organizations, Chinese triads, Oriental groups that are forming gangs and the traditional so-called motorcycle gangs, which are, as I have said, becoming more prevalent.

The Minister of Justice gave repeated assurances to study options for strengthening our current legislation to break the back of organized crime. Although some of those details were not discussed publicly, we do know that attempts were made to introduce legislation in 1997. We see it coming back now in this form. The minister reiterated this in her comments.

I do applaud her. I applaud the minister's initiative in bringing forward this legislation now. It has finally received priority and would allow those administering it, mainly the provinces and the law enforcement community, to attack the issue and to attack the underbelly of these gangs. In particular, this legislation allows for greater use of attacking the proceeds of crime, that is, going after the actual resources of organized crime and taking away the flow of money and the benefits received from illegal acts.

It also very clearly and specifically simplifies the definition and the composition of criminal organizations for purposes in a court. The bill targets various degrees of involvement within organizations, that is, it attaches the type of activity that is deemed to be participation in a criminal organization. Sometimes that is just watching. Sometimes it could be the person working on a dock in Halifax who turns a blind eye to an importation or to a boxcar coming in with illicit contraband material.

The legislation also would make it easier for police and prosecutors to arrest and jail those involved in organized crime and keep them in prison for longer periods of time. There is a greater element of deterrence, both specific and general, at work in the bill for those who choose this path.

The bill would allow law enforcement officials to declare forfeit the proceeds of crime from organizations, to seize the property and to perhaps put that resource back into the community that has been harmed. It allows law enforcement officers to seize things like houses, boats, cars and money and to allow the resource that has been pillaged and raped from a community to go back into it and perhaps benefit it and try to rehabilitate some of the harm that has been done.

The legislation would also strengthen rules protecting against intimidation of witnesses, jurors and their families at organized crime trials. It would strengthen the protection for federal ministers and members of parliament. It would improve protection for law enforcement officers from criminal liability when they commit certain illicit acts while engaging in undercover operations.

One thing missing from the legislation and which has been pointed out by several members today is that it does not include provincial ministers. I believe that was perhaps a legislative oversight. I am certain it is something that can be corrected at committee.

In particular, the provisions in this bill send a very important signal that the Parliament of Canada is not going to sit back and rest on the laurels of the fine men and women who are currently working in our justice system, but that it is actually going to bolster support for them and enhance their ability to do their job and their ability to protect us, because it is that thin blue line, as it is sometimes called, that the police provide to the citizens of Canada.

We are supportive of the amendments that deal with taking away the proceeds of the crime, taking away the lifeblood. There are very positive amendments to this bill that could be tightened up. Again, hopefully we will have an opportunity to do that in the process.

Of course I mentioned the absence of protection for provincial ministers. There is also perhaps some need to protect journalists in some instances, as we saw with Mr. Auger.

There is a problem with respect to the funding for the legislation. That in and of itself is perhaps its greatest weakness. The legislation has come about, typically, with great fanfare and with announcements made in the press gallery. I think the minister has had her knuckles rapped a little in that regard. The legislation announces $200 million to address this specific problem. That comes as great news to those in law enforcement and was met with great enthusiasm by the commissioner of the RCMP and others.

However, the question, the next natural progression of that, is this: when will the money come? There were references in that very press conference to the earlier announcement of $584 million to the RCMP to upgrade CPIC, to allow for greater resources, to allow for more overtime, to allow for resources and for perhaps greater access to justices of the peace or greater access to informants. They are all important elements of the police task in protecting Canadians.

When will the money arrive? It would be very interesting to hear from the minister or members of the government how much of that $580 million, the earlier announcement, has actually been put into the coffers of the police. I suspect that the same question will be asked of this $200 million in very short order, because they are crying out for those resources. The police are desperately in need of the financial support. It is fine to make the announcement, to give the moral support here, but they need the actual resources and they need them immediately. That is a question that has yet to be answered.

There is a positive starting point here. There is certainly a determined commitment on the part of the government and on the part of all members of parliament. This has affected individual members of parliament. A member of the Bloc found himself in a very unsettling position, I am sure, when he was the subject of threatening actions on the part of an outlaw motorcycle gang.

The limitless resources of the organized criminal element highlight the fact that the police are often left feeling that they are not on a level playing field legislatively because of their limitations within the law. However, they are also under the increased pressure because organized crime has unlimited resources and is essentially using more and better technology than is available to the police. Members of organized crime are watching the watchers. They are using videotape to tape the police to find out who is watching them. They are transmitting information about judges, about prosecutors and about police. They are sharing information about undercover officers. They are using the Internet to its maximum benefit.

This is the brave new era. This is an age wherein we should be giving the police the tools and the technology to fight organized crime on the same level that organized crime is using. Typically we have seen the government try to fix a problem that in some instances it created. I refer to the ports police. There have also been severe cuts to the RCMP in the past number of years. Clearly the RCMP was suffering budgetary restraints when it had to close its training facility in Saskatoon. Clearly when the Canadian Police Information Centre computer system was almost on the verge of collapse without an immediate influx of money, it was symptomatic of underfunding on the part of our national police force. Bill C-24 would not provide this immediate injection of funding.

There are, as I indicated, elements and commitments that we are very supportive of. What we want to see and what we want to diligently pursue is that the funding is actually going to be there. There are clauses in the bill like, for example, clause 27 at page 29, which talks about the definition of criminal organization. It now needs to be composed of three or more persons and the crown now does not need to show that the offences were committed in the previous five years.

Some of the legislation may seem technical and inconsequential to the untrained ear, but this is very important for the crown and for the police working in cohort to secure convictions. We saw a very recent sting operation in the province of Quebec and parts of Ontario that resulted in individuals being rounded up and charged. There are potentially charges there that will not be affected by the introduction of this legislation, but in the future certainly it will help in the successful prosecution of these types of offences.

One problem that I have picked up on is that Bill C-24 fails to make it a criminal offence to be a member of a group already proven to be a criminal organization. Whether or not an organization is criminal would have to be proven in each particular case, that is, it would create needless expense in some instances and a duplication of resources that would prolong many criminal trials.

There is a general consensus that the legislation is positive. Much of the technical examination of the issue came about as a result of the Shirose and Campbell case that dealt with immunity. It dealt with police officers having the ability to infiltrate crime through in some instances buying illicit substances like drugs and participating in questionable conduct themselves to prove allegiance and to prove that they were working with the gang to gain its trust so that they could break it up.

This is something that raises concern among lawyers and privacy protectors. There will be an examination by a court of law to see that it is in proportion, that it is reasonable in the circumstances. These are the types of matters that we could try to fine tune.

It will no doubt result in court challenges and that should be welcomed. Members should embrace that reality. It is our responsibility to make laws and it is the responsibility of the courts to examine and interpret those laws in some cases.

With regard to the intimidation factor, it is very important that there be as broad a definition as possible for who should be protected from intimidation. Trials cannot function if jurists, lawyers, witnesses, and in some instances police, are feeling intimidated. Intimidation and extortion are things that gangs deal in very much. They put fear into the minds of people if they come forward to testify against gang members.

I am hopeful the minister and the government will be open to certain amendments, further examination and strengthening of the legislation. I trust all members would be supporting the bill.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-24, since the Bloc Quebecois has argued for such a bill.

It was one of the Bloc Quebecois' issues throughout the election campaign. In truth, the Bloc Quebecois has been asking for years for a law with teeth to effectively fight organized crime.

Before speaking about the bill specifically, I have an aside to make. I listened attentively to the speech by the Minister of Justice, and I must say I was rather disappointed by it, not because I was expecting congratulations from the minister for myself or the Bloc Quebecois on our tenacity in this matter, quite honestly I was not expecting that, but I think she left out big chunks of this story. Today, she is gloating, she is proud of tabling a bill like this, but we have to look at what led the minister to table this bill. I think it worthwhile to point out a few things.

Among other things, she spoke of a certain justice committee that studied the question. Indeed, the standing committee on justice did examine the whole question of organized crime. Why did the committee deliberate on this issue? Simply because we took one of the Bloc Quebecois' opposition days to introduce a motion to convince the Liberal government opposite, the government the minister represents as the Minister of Justice, to convince this government it was time and important for the House to consider the problem of organized crime and to try to come up with solutions.

It took a day of debate, a number of oral question periods and, following a unanimous vote by the House of Commons, the matter of organized crime was referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights so proposals could be made to the government. The minister seems to have forgotten that part.

I also mentioned having questioned the minister on a number of occasions, which I did again during this session. Barely three weeks before the minister decided to introduce antigang legislation, the bill before us today, she answered one of my questions here in this House to the effect that the criminal code contained all that was needed to fight organized crime. Three weeks before introduction of the bill, the minister was telling us that the criminal code and related legislation did not require amending in any way for there to be an effective campaign against organized crime.

Hon. members will understand that I am delighted to have convinced the minister to introduce such a bill, but they will agree with me that its maternity, or perhaps paternity, is open to question. I have often said that the minister did not understand the matter in the least. She has demonstrated not only her total lack of understanding but also her lack of monitoring of the matter, by stating a scant three weeks before this bill was introduced that it was not necessary to change the rules relating to organized crime.

We have before us a highly complex bill. I imagine the minister herself has not worked very hard on this bill, not to know of its existence three weeks ago. A bill like this cannot be drafted overnight. However, since we in the Bloc Quebecois are good sports, I congratulate the minister on having finally got the message.

On this particular issue, the Bloc Quebecois has more than once extended a hand to the minister in the hope that she would decide to amend the rules having to do with the whole issue of organized crime in order to give the police and the justice system the tools they are demanding.

The House is aware that the Bloc Quebecois was pushing for changes. People in the community, in the Quebec nation, in the rest of Canada as well, were also calling on the minister to make such changes.

I would have liked to see the minister showing some thought for these people in her speech at second reading of Bill C-24 to amend the criminal code.

I would have liked the minister to recognize that there were people, some of them in Quebec, who fought to have the law amended. Some people in Quebec even lost their lives in this fight.

This is a part of the whole issue that the minister seems to have forgotten, because she did not thank or even congratulate or pay tribute to these people. I will do so; it will be brief. However, I would like to say something about all the work and energy that people put into fighting, often quite resolutely, to convince the minister to make these changes.

As we know, in the 1990s, 1997 I think, in Montreal, an 11-year old called Daniel Desrochers lost his life in a bomb explosion connected to the biker gang wars that were going on at the time in Quebec.

The torch was picked up by family and friends and by the Bloc Quebecois member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, who worked to convince the Government of Canada to change the criminal code. I must pay tribute to their efforts and tell them that they have contributed to the changes we have here today.

I would also like to salute and to thank Michel Auger, the reporter on a Quebec daily newspaper who used his pen to awaken the people of Quebec, the Quebec nation, and the people across the way here as well, to this scourge. He did not back down, and this needs to be recognized. Mr. Auger refused to back down and continued to say no to violence.

Then there was a young man in the riding of Terrebonne. The late Francis Laforêt stood up to organized crime and said “No”. He was a bar owner. A gang wanted to take over control of his bar. He said “No crooked dealings in my bar, there will be no drug dealing under my roof. You are not gaining control here. No way”.

Hon. members know the rest. He was beaten to death with baseball bats and goodness knows what else. The young Francis Laforêt lost his life. I have spoken with his family and friends and they too said no to violence, “No way are we going to let ourselves be pushed around by organized crime”. All these people, including Mr. Laforêt's parents, friends and brother, took action, prepared petitions, kept track of the issue and pressured municipal and federal governments and also members of parliament to get zoning regulations.

In the end, these people too made a contribution by saying “no” to violence and intimidation and “yes” to democracy. They helped convince the Minister of Justice or rather her department and those who drafted this bill. The determination shown by these people was such that officials decided to continue to work on this issue.

This is part of history, part of that period. This is why Bloc Quebecois members have shown such an interest in this issue. One must realize the importance of this issue.

Looking at the government's own documents, we can see that organized crime is not a new phenomenon. It is not something that caught the government off guard because it was not aware of it. The government is well aware of what is going on.

In fact, the RCMP did a study on organized crime and on the ins and outs of the war that has developed in Quebec in recent years. According to the documents I had this morning, the RCMP figured that, for the 1994-98 period alone, 79 murders were related to the bikers' war. This number does not apply to the whole of organized crime.

During that period, 79 murders and 89 attempted murders were related to the drug trade and to the wars between Quebec biker gangs, in addition to 129 instances of arson and over 80 bombings. These are figures that the minister knew or should have known. Both the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of Justice must have known about the situation, just as they must know that the drug trade is exceedingly lucrative for those who are involved in it.

The Quebec provincial police estimates that the Hell's Angels alone made profits of $100 million last year. The drug trade, from coast to coast in Canada, represents some $5 billion. The government opposite has known or should have known this for a very long time. I was elected in October 1993 and have known about this since 1994.

Despite the questions, motions, opposition interventions and all that has gone on, the government did not budge. Finally the pressure reached such a pitch that the department decided to go ahead.

Had the minister or the ministers who followed one another,— because since 1993-94 there has been more than one federal Minister of Justice—had the ministers acted more quickly, lives could certainly have been saved. Fewer bombs would have exploded and fewer fires would have been lit. But no, it took until 2001 for such a bill.

Organized crime can be found everywhere. Naturally, it is to be found in the bars and in the world of prostitution. On the fringes, organized crime can be found in the scourge of the illegal sale of cigarettes and alcoholic beverages and in illegal casinos, because there is a market for it. There are similar places. There are also high interest loans too. There is the whole question of drugs. I hope the minister knows as well that they are not just found in the street now, but in almost all the schools. Young people are regularly offered these drugs. As well, there is the whole question of cornfields and farmers.

It does not take boy scouts to be able to plant entire fields of marijuana and to intimidate farmers. Organized crime is behind that. A look at the map of Quebec makes it very clear—and this is what all Bloc Quebecois MPs from this region are also saying—that there are many such crops. Many farmers are complaining about this situation. Once again, I repeat, this is not a recent development. The Minister of Justice has never seen fit to act. Fortunately, the opposition and the people of Quebec have stood firm and argued their case and today, finally, we have a bill.

Is it a real anti-gang bill? Is it what the Bloc Quebecois members would have liked to see? After looking it over, I would say that approximately 80% of the bill reflects the comments and answers given to questions put by Bloc Quebecois members to the minister in recent years. This means that 80% of this bill is a victory for the Bloc Quebecois, and we are most pleased.

This does not mean, however, that we are going to sit on our laurels and that we will not try to amend the bill further. We are going to try to convince the minister on certain points, as the House will see a little later.

As for whether or not this is really an anti-gang law, that will depend on how it is enforced. However, I think we are actually starting to have something more closely resembling such a law. With such legislation, we are starting to have tools which will make it possible to mount an effective campaign against organized crime.

People probably remember all the seizures made in Quebec under the existing provincial legislation, not the bill being debated today, but the existing Quebec legislation behind Opération Printemps 2001, which resulted in more than 160 arrests in 74 municipalities in Quebec. Millions of dollars were seized in the form of luxury vehicles, drugs and cash. It was a very successful operation.

With respect to the operation per se, we can congratulate the police on a job well done. I would like to take this opportunity to commend them for their professionalism. However, we have to wait and see how many of the some 160 people arrested and charged with murder, attempted murder, corruption and other offences under the Food and Drugs Act will be found guilty.

This is why I think that, if the minister had acted sooner, Opération Printemps 2001 would have been conducted under new and much clearer and stricter provisions providing for harsher sentences, something we in the Bloc, as well as the police and the public have been asking for for some time now. Once again, the minister turned a deaf ear.

What provisions of this bill should we be thankful for? In 1997, when the then justice minister amended the criminal code to show that the government was doing something to fight organized crime, a definition of a criminal organization was provided and a criminal organization offence was created.

I remember very well that we had some concerns about those provisions, as we maintained that they would be hard to enforce because the onus was put first on the police, to carry out their investigations, and then on the crown prosecutors to convince the judge beyond any reasonable doubt that the people charged were guilty of being part of a criminal organization.

We used to talk about the three fives rule. In other words, to be able to indict somebody for an organized crime offence, we had to prove and still have to prove, because this is still in effect, that a group of five people had committed an indictable offence punishable by imprisonment for five years and that these five people had acted this way for five years. Of course, it had to be proven too that these five people knew that they were breaking the law.

That was a very heavy burden. The Bloc Quebecois asked the minister, among other things, whether she would change these rules. I remember distinctly that she stated in the House that it was not necessary, because it was easy to prove all of that, that crown prosecutors could prove it. At one point, she even asked us to present our suggestions to her if we had something in mind.

On June 1, 1999 after several attempts to negotiate with her, I made up my mind that I had to put this on paper and send it to her.

Strangely enough, the definition on my document of June 1, 1999 is almost identical to the one in Bill C-24. The minister finally understood that the three fives rule was difficult to enforce. Only three people, and not five, are now needed in order to have a criminal organization, just as I suggested on June 1, 1999.

Ideally, we could have dropped it to two people, as we did for conspiracy. But I compromised on June 1, 1999 in order to try to speed things up. I imagine that things were going along, but the minister was not necessarily working at the same speed, because that was not when we got the bill.

In Bill C-24, the whole matter of membership in a criminal organization and the definitions relating to that part of the bill have therefore been modified, simplified for the better in order to be in a position to make a case.

Under the bill, gang membership has been reduced to three people from five. We now have the whole business of contribution to activities that assist a criminal organization to attain its criminal objectives.

I am pleased with this definition, which is far more complex in the bill than the way I am stating it, and hon. members will agree with me. I am just giving the main thrust for purposes of understanding. It will be easier for us to be able to collar various people whom we are not able to touch at the present time.

I am thinking for instance of all the people involved in recruiting new members to be taken into “gang school”. Before, there was nothing we could do. That was one of the things we pointed out. Now with the new definitions and the way the bill is worded, we will be able to collar someone based merely on the fact that he is participating in a criminal organization or contributing to the advancement of a criminal organization, able to establish evidence of this and to see him do time for it. We are going to be able to put him away where he can do no more harm to the public.

Then there is the whole matter of participating in the perpetration of acts of gangsterism. This is very important and merits particular attention, because this is now an offence with a 14-year prison sentence attached.

Furthermore, when the department changed section 477 of the criminal code, one of our concerns was that such a definition would prevent us from ever arresting the leaders. These leaders do not commit the thefts, they do not kill, they do not sell drugs. So, we had no means to put them behind bars.

The question was “Will the minister change the criminal code to be able to arrest gang leaders?” At that time, she answered “We have all the necessary provisions in the criminal code to arrest gang leaders and to prosecute them”.

She will not admit it today, but she probably knew then that I was right and that there was still something missing in the criminal code, since Bill C-24 now defines clearly what a gang leader is. She even added a definition of criminal organization leader. That is to be able to arrest those leaders. To show the importance of these provisions, there is a life sentence attached to them.

Again, I congratulate the minister for the change, since it is clearly something we requested and about which I asked questions in the House. I congratulate the minister, but we are in 2001 and she should have done it in 1999, when I gave her written documents. When questioned, the minister should have given us a positive answer. It is not because something comes from the opposition that it is necessarily bad.

Some members on the other side were very surprised by my reaction to Bill C-24. They were quite surprised to hear me say that this was a good bill. Actually, 80% of its content corresponds to what we asked for. This is what we wanted. It is a good bill, but we will nevertheless try to improve it. However, when a good bill is introduced, I have always taken the time to say so in the House and to congratulate those who deserve it. But when a bill is not good, I have never refrained from saying so.

I would like to say as an aside that the Young Offenders Act, for instance, is a bad bill for Quebec. I go right ahead and say so. However, this does not stop me from acknowledging good bills, like the one we have before us.

We definitely support the provisions on participation in a criminal organization and the definitions of a gang because the Bloc Quebecois has been asking for those provisions for a long time.

We have also been asking for measures to protect people in the justice system against intimidation, which criminal groups have frequently used against them. Members of the Bloc Quebecois have personally been the targets of intimidation when they were working on this issue and pushing it. Members of juries in some proceedings were also victims of intimidation.

We have also witnessed intimidation of people who were interfering with the business dealings, like drug dealings and other similar activities, of criminal groups. We definitely support protection against intimidation for people connected with the justice system.

However, I think the department has forgotten certain things. As the justice critic for the Canadian Alliance pointed out, and as I said in press conferences, I fail to understand why the Quebec minister of justice or the Quebec minister of public security would not be granted the same protection against intimidation by these groups when senators do have this legal protection. Intimidating a senator or a member of the House of Commons is an offence, but the same does not apply to MLAs. This is certainly an oversight on the part of the department, which we will try to correct in committee.

What about journalists? We have the best example in Quebec with Michel Auger. I think he has done more on this issue than anyone else, with his writing. He tried to convince people that we needed anti-gang legislation. He reported the facts. This is very democratic. We saw the intimidation directed against Mr. Auger. But there is nothing with regard to that in this bill.

A person accused and convicted of intimidating someone associated with the justice system is liable to 14 years imprisonment. I am sure there are members opposite who will say “Yes, but there is section 423, which provides that any attempt to intimidate an individual in the justice system, in a general way—”. Indeed, journalists could perhaps be covered by this section, like MNAs or the members of another provincial legislature. But it is a maximum of five years. So it is clearly less serious when it involves these people. I sincerely believe this too must be changed.

I believe there is another group the department has forgotten, our elected municipal officials. During the House of Commons' two week break, I worked on site, as they say. I did not just meet the mayors in my riding but, on a related matter, I had discussions with mayors across Quebec. To name but one, since he was a pioneer in the whole issue of zoning bunkers in his own municipality, the mayor of Blainville. He said that there had been intimidation as well as threats and all sorts of things, and he has no protection.

I think another segment of the population has been forgotten in this definition, the members of municipal councils. There is surely a way to draft this article to include more people and for those trying to intimidate them to be liable to imprisonment for 15 years.

There is protection as well for the members of a jury. This is very important and something we in the Bloc Quebecois have long been asking for.

The whole definition of criminal organization has been simplified. In addition, there will be a special way to calculate sentences for persons found guilty of gangsterism. This is a step forward. It is no longer a requirement to prove that the individuals knew they had been committing indictable offences over the previous five years. This whole notion of the number of years has been completely eliminated, and so has the number of years in prison. This applies not only to crimes punishable by five years in prison but to all other crimes.

We only have to think about prostitution or drug trafficking in bars, for which there was no maximum punishment of five years or more and therefore were not covered by the current definition of criminal organization under the criminal code. Today with these amendments they will be covered.

Here again the Bloc Quebecois had been asking for a broadening of the definition in order to better target those who carry out a reign of terror against those individuals within the organizations.

Then there is the whole issue of the seizure and forfeiture of the proceeds of crime. However, in this respect we believe the department could have introduced much more relevant and daring amendments. We believe the department did not go far enough in terms of the legislative tools it is giving the courts, the police and the penal system as a whole. There is still work to be done in this respect even though progress has been made.

We are so far behind and we have so few tools to successfully fight organized crime that any change, no matter how small, must be welcomed and applauded. But while we are at it with the help of experts to draft something that is defendable and enforceable and is what the people want, we might as well do it right. We really have to look at the whole issue.

There is one matter that scares several people, namely the amendments aimed at protecting the officers in charge of enforcing the anti-gang law. Now, a police officer investigating very specific crimes such as the trafficking of human beings, alcohol, tobacco or firearms smuggling, heinous crimes, international terrorism, crimes against the environment and everything related to drug offences, will at last be able to commit acts otherwise illegal were it not for that protection.

So that members can really understand what I am talking about, I will give an example. Criminal groups, be it biker gangs, the Italian network, Chinese triads or the Russian mafia, which is also present in Canada, are well organized. They have made it very difficult for the police to infiltrate them. Very often, in those biker gangs whose methods we are more familiar with, to determine if a new member going up every step in the organization is trustworthy and is one of them, the leader will ask him to commit certain illegal acts.

The bill says that an investigating officer could commit certain acts without fear of prosecution. This is not protection at large; murder, rape, acts of violence and so on are excluded. This is for very specific offences. For example, in a biker gang operating a large drug market, an undercover officer could be asked to sell drugs. That is an illegal act. Without protection, the police officer could be liable to prosecution for that. Yet he must do so to be accepted as a member of the biker gang, get to know more and possibly gather enough information to prosecute the guilty parties.

This is very much a societal issue. It is a complex matter and it could lead to abuse. We must be very careful in implementing the law. However, if we want to fight organized crime effectively, we must have such tools.

Some countries go much further than that, but we should begin by looking at their experience and see how this is done, see how things work and what the results will be over time. This is a step in the right direction, albeit a very small one in terms of both the offences and the people.

If memory serves, the Minister of Justice once tabled a white paper on the issue of granting immunity to any public official during the course of any investigation which is even more encompassing. At the time, my initial reaction was “They want a police state. This makes no sense. We must restrict that, we must establish a framework, we must set limits”.

Again, the minister seems to have listened. This is not a common occurrence, but we should mention it when she does so. Or else it is the department that listened to what I said, so that today such immunity is only granted to peace officers conducting investigations in very specific areas. It is very limited in scope. It is something.

Where I have questions and am anxious to hear what the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of Justice, who will certainly be appearing before the committee, have to say about this issue—I say this up front so they can be ready—is when it comes to giving the political arm authority to make such actions legal. Under the proposed legislation, the solicitor general would authorize such actions. Truly, if there is one thing that must not be mixed with politics, it is the law.

It would be a kindness to the minister to tell her that she is on the wrong track, that this should be left up to the courts, as is now the case for wiretapping, for certain very specific seizures outside normal court hours. It could be a judge who, as part of an investigation and upon presentation of evidence, gives authorization. It could be ex parte. It could be various ways of speeding up authorization. But it must be someone who is independent of the political arm. It must be a judge who gives authorization and who oversees the result.

This is one amendment we are going to try to make when this bill comes before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Generally speaking, it is not what is in the bill that is causing a problem but much more what is not. With this in mind, I think that it will be easier to work with officials of the Department of Justice and try to convince them to make certain additions to the bill.

I will conclude by saying that one thing is certain and that is that those enforcing the legislation must also be given the necessary money. It is all very fine and well to have a well-drafted bill, but the necessary money must be there for them to enforce it.

In Quebec, we have shown that when the police were given adequate financial support, they were able to do an effective job of combating organized crime, as they did in the Opération Printemps 2001, a major cleanup operation. We should continue in this vein by passing this bill.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on the new organized crime legislation, Bill C-24.

I was struck by the almost desperate plea that the Minister of Justice made to the House to pass the legislation. The matters I heard her raise, discuss and urge upon the House are things my party and its predecessor the Reform Party have been saying for years. They have been desperately asking the House to bring forward legislation to address organized crime. Over and over again Liberal members have simply stonewalled or refused to bring forward legislation.

I must say that I am relieved to see after years of the opposition fighting for more effective laws to help combat gangs and other criminal organizations that the federal Liberals have finally woke up.

During the election they realized that organized crime was an issue. Suddenly the government said that it better do something because there was a danger to our country and to our institutions. It said that police officers were having a difficult time coping and the courts were overwhelmed by the issue of organized crime. I therefore note, with a bit of bewilderment, that the Liberals finally woke up.

I thank the minister for bringing the bill forward because there are some very good things in it. I know the minister is also very open to ideas and prides herself in listening, discussing and accepting recommendations from time to time.

I am relieved that the government is finally acknowledging that organized crime is a serious problem. The rest of the country has been saying this for many years. It is no secret, although to the Liberal caucus it was a bit of a secret, that the level of activity of criminal organizations has increased substantially in recent years, posing a severe risk to public safety and security. Not only has there been an increase in the level of activity. There has also been an increase in the intensity of violence including bombing, threats and intimidation.

The extent of collaboration within and among criminal groups has broadened greatly. The available technology has improved their ability to conduct organized crime by leaps and bounds. Over the years Canada has become a very attractive place for these types of criminals. According to the Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada, CISC, “virtually every major criminal group in the world is active in Canada”.

Antonio Nicaso, a well known organized crime specialist and author, has said that Canada has become one of the world's most important centres for global crime syndicates in part because of federal regulations and laws. He has stated that prior to Bill C-22 it was harder to import cheese into Canada due to the restriction of the minister of agriculture than it was to import a suitcase full of money.

The RCMP commissioner has said recently that for the first time there are signs of criminal organizations which are so sophisticated they are actually focusing on destabilizing certain aspects of our society.

Our party has long recognized these frightening indications and for years as the Reform Party and now the Alliance we have been calling for changes in the way the government should approach organized crime.

Over the past few years there have been a few halfhearted attempts by the government to adapt our laws to help fight these criminals. Just before the 1997 election the Liberal government pushed through parliament amendments to the criminal code that were intended to fight organized crime. However, because it was so last minute the opposition was not able to hear from witnesses to determine whether the proposed legislation would be effective.

The Canadian Police Association stated that Bill C-95 did not go far enough to provide police and prosecutors with the tools to fight organized crime. There were a few, some estimate perhaps under five, ineffective prosecutions under the bill.

Even the justice minister at the time said during the debate that he did not claim the bill represented everything needed to fight organized crime but that it was just the first step. Under intense pressure from not only opposition politicians but also from police and other concerned members in the community, the government has finally introduced some of the long needed legislation for which we have been calling.

Our party welcomes many of the proposals in the new bill, but a number of significant deficiencies in the legislation still require further amendment to adequately address the problem of gang participation and violence.

The most disturbing feature of the legislation is its failure to make it a criminal offence to be a member of a group already proven to be a criminal organization. Contrary to the suggestions of the Minister of Justice, this provision does not make participation or membership in a criminal organization illegal unless it can be proven that the person had the intention to facilitate illegal transactions for that organization.

The fact that an organization is criminal would have to be proven in each particular case over and over again. It would result in needless duplication of resources, expenses and the prolongation of criminal trials, which would again have an impact upon the court system and its resources.

Members often think that all we have to do is pass a law in the House and things will change. In the real world things are not that simple. As a minister of justice of a provincial government I actually had to carry out the laws that parliamentarians passed. The reality is not simply the law. The reality is the resources that must be provided to make even the best legislation effective.

Last fall my colleagues in the Bloc put forward a supply motion that called for parliament to make it a crime to belong to a criminal organization. The Liberal government argued that such a provision might be considered unconstitutional. However, making illegal participation in a group that has been proven to be a criminal organization is a reasonable limit on freedom of association and other freedoms in the charter.

When the primary if not the sole purpose of such an association is to commit illegal acts, the safety and security of private citizens may reasonably supersede the individual rights of the persons conspiring to commit these acts or participating in these organizations.

I ask the House to bring the Bloc proposal forward as was suggested earlier. What is the fear of bringing the proposal forward? Is it that it might be unconstitutional? If the courts do not believe that our citizens are deserving of this protection, let them tell us so.

We should not settle for second best because the Liberal government is frightened to pass the legislation that it needs to pass. The courts should tell us and we will respect the courts. If the courts believe citizens are not entitled to that protection then parliament must listen to what the courts say.

Certain members think what I am saying is funny. It is not funny. A member across the way laughs about what I am doing. I take the seriousness of the situation to heart and members have a responsibility for the safety and security of our citizens. If members opposite want to joke about that, let them joke. I can take that.

Another equally disturbing fact about the bill is the serious lack of funding and resources that has plagued and continues to plague the administrators of our justice system. Frontline officers fighting to get these criminals prosecuted have been effectively handcuffed with a serious lack of resources.

Criminal organizations have the best possible tools. They have state of the art technology. They have access to millions of dollars derived from illegal activities to fund their activities. Meanwhile our frontline police officers struggle to maintain existing technology. They are unable to adapt to new and emerging technologies because of insufficient funding.

Funding has become a vital issue in our continuing fight against the sophisticated and wealthy organized crime syndicates. Organized crime investigations are themselves resource intensive, costly, highly technical, lengthy and complex.

When the bill was first introduced over two weeks ago the justice minister announced a mere $200 million of funding. To me and the average citizen $200 million is a lot of money. The government continually includes an amount of money in a package announcement as though the money is immediately available. That is not correct.

The amount is spread over five years. It does not come close to the amount that is needed for frontline law enforcement officials to do their jobs effectively. When one looks at the $200 million over five years and where the money will go, it will not be to local police forces in Winnipeg, Calgary or Vancouver that actually do the investigations. Some of it will go to the RCMP, and we applaud that. What concerns me about the $200 million is that it will not go to the places it needs to go in terms of frontline investigation and help for the police.

I speak from experience and knowledge having dealt with that matter when I was minister of justice for a provincial government. The need to fight organized crime in whatever form we find it is a constant concern. Another concern is the lack of resources available at the provincial level and the reluctance of the federal government to put its money where its mouth is. From time to time the government comes up with bills and makes impassioned speeches to the House to pass the legislation. We agree that the legislation should be passed but we need to make it effective legislation. How do we actually carry it out? We cannot simply stand here in Ottawa and say that we have now given the tools when we pass the legislation.

We need to financially support our front line police officers. If we are not prepared to do that then all our speeches, our legislation and the studies and the years that have gone into the legislation were all for naught.

When one considers the annual RCMP expenditures alone in one year, the $200 million extra to fight organized crime is a drop in the bucket. If this was all going to front line RCMP officers it would be a good start, but everyone here in the House realizes that is not where it is going.

We are not even talking about the municipal police forces that carry out the mandate of parliament when we pass legislation. Who will help the Toronto police force or the maritime municipal police forces that have a very real interest in protecting their citizens against this pernicious criminal activity?

Even though the introduction of additional funding by the government gives the appearance of a substantive and immediate injection of funds, the funds allocated on a yearly basis will not significantly enhance police or prosecution resources when we consider that a relatively simply prosecution under this legislation can cost $10 million.

I understand from newspaper reports that a special courthouse is being built in Quebec for these types of crimes. The courthouse alone is estimated to cost $10 million.

When I was a justice minister in Manitoba we had to build a special courthouse at a cost of $3.5 million. The money was well spent. It was essential to not only have legislation in place but to put the resources in place to actually get the job done.

When we consider the ramifications to legal aid, to prosecutors, to police overtime and to clerks, $10 million for one trial is not an uncommon amount. We see the courthouse being built for $10 million in Quebec and then we think of what it will cost to conduct a trial. We cannot allow organized criminals to have even an inkling of an understanding that we are not prepared to support our police officers.

If we have actually convinced the Liberals that this is the right direction to move in, I am glad. At least they have taken the first step, the legislative step, but now they have to take the second step. The earlier legislation was only part of the first step. This is getting close to completing the first step. The huge step, the financial issue, has to be addressed but, unfortunately, it is not being addressed.

I am encouraged that the Minister of Justice might find it in her heart to convince some of her colleagues over there who might be mean-spirited enough to deny our police officers these resources. I recognize that she has a very difficult job trying to convince some of these people on the other side; not all of them, some of them are very good people. She needs to convince some of the Liberals who do not believe that this is really a problem. If that is the basis of her leadership speech, as was just mentioned, let it be her leadership speech. I do not think it is a bad thing to do. I would encourage the Minister of Justice to move in that direction, if not in the leadership, at least in terms of finding that money for our police officers.

I am making those comments to her through you, Mr. Speaker. I wanted that clear on the record.

It is somewhat heartening to see that the legislation proposes added protection from intimidation for people who work in the justice system, such as witnesses, jurors, police, prosecutors, prison guards, judges, members of parliament and senators. This is absolutely crucial. It is one of the practical steps that needed to be taken and is being taken.

There are some shortcomings in that list. I am not sure whether it adequately protects other key players in the fight against crime, especially when we look at the listing of federal MPs. Does it protect provincial MLAs or members of the national assembly in Quebec, in particular, provincial justice ministers?

I do not say that because I was a provincial justice minister but I do think they are on the front line with the police and they deserve protection as well. We do not want them, the deputy ministers nor anyone involved in provincial justice departments who are front line workers in the fight against crime to be intimidated. They need the same level of protection as federal parliamentarians.

It would seem mean-spirited of us if we granted the protection to ourselves when we do not even carry out the day to day activities and refuse to grant it to those who carry it out on a day to day basis.

In addition, as recent cases demonstrate, journalists who demonstrate their service of the public interest by reporting on organized crime also need and deserve the enhanced protection under our criminal law. It is absolutely essential.

The media is a very important tool in the fight against organized crime. One need only point out the well known case of Michel Auger, a Montreal crime reporter. That case demonstrates the need for extra protection for journalists. Last September he was shot five times as he arrived at the offices of his newspapers.

That was not the only incident in Canada where journalists had been the subject of attack, where they have had the courage to stand up and say the right things and write the right things. Jean-Pierre Charbonneau, who is now speaker of the Quebec legislature, was shot three times in the chest and the arm in the newsroom in 1973 while he was a reporter covering an inquiry into organized crime.

In 1995 a freelance reporter was shot after answering a knock on his front door. He was shot in both legs and survived what police called a warning by bikers.

We all know of the case of the editor of North America's largest Punjabi paper. He was shot and killed in his suburban Vancouver garage in 1998 by an unidentified killer.

Members of the press who research and report on all items of interest to Canadians, in particular, matters pertaining to their safety, must be protected from these types of attacks on democracy and freedom of the press.

It is not enough to say that we have a general provision that covers attempted murder or murder. As a democracy and as passionate believers in free speech, we need to send out a specific, clear, legislated message that those journalists are entitled to that protection.

The House of Commons should never allow attempts by criminal groups to intimidate any person or any democratic institution, and I include the press in those democratic institutions.

The bill also addresses the issue of police immunity. I think all right thinking people understand the need for police to have these powers. We also understand the need for clear criteria governing those activities. It was always the case that police had those clear criteria in place as policies that governed their activities. The Supreme Court of Canada has come along and said that we need to put that in legislation. I agree because I do not think it is necessary to fight on that issue. Let us put clear criteria in place but let us not hamstring and handcuff our police officers at an undue cost to our security and the security of our citizens to enjoy democracy and their democratic rights.

The minister needs to bear in mind that when we create immunity for police, we also have to address the possible adverse impacts on law-abiding citizens and the damage that might be done to their property by a police officer carrying out his or her duties under this protection.

If a police officer has to steal and destroy a car, which would be permitted under the criteria, damage other property or commit some other crime that causes damage to a citizen's property, I do not believe the citizen should have to bear that responsibility personally. This is a societal cost. This is a cost that we as a society must bear because we have given this power to the police.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved that Bill C-24, an act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to lead off the debate on an issue of major concern to all Canadians: the problem of organized crime and the legislative tools available to our police, prosecutors and courts to address that problem.

In the Speech from the Throne, our government promised to take aggressive steps to combat organized crime, including the creation of stronger anti-gang laws.

Building upon the foundation that the government put in place over the past several years, including the 1997 anti-gang amendments to the criminal code, the proposed legislation would enable law enforcement to respond to the threat of organized crime in the country.

Bill C-24, an act to amend the criminal code regarding organized crime and law enforcement, responds to our commitment to law enforcement officials and to my provincial counterparts to provide additional legislative tools to assist them in the fight against the many manifestations of organized crime. The legislative measures set out in Bill C-24 seek to assist Canadian law enforcement officials in the fight against organized crime.

These proposals fall into four categories: first, measures to improve the protection of people who play a role in the justice system from intimidation; second, the creation of an accountable process to protect law enforcement officers from criminal liability for certain otherwise illegal acts committed in the course of an investigation; third, legislation to broaden the powers of law enforcement to forfeit the proceeds of crime, and in particular the profits of criminal organizations, and to seize property that was used in a crime; and, fourth, the creation of a number of new offences targeting involvement with criminal organizations.

I would like to take a few moments to acknowledge the valuable contributions made to its development by my provincial colleagues and their officials. It has been a truly collaborative effort characterized by mutual respect, patience and a commitment to the development of a broad based response to the threats of organized crime.

These efforts resulted in the adoption last September of the national agenda to combat organized crime. In Iqaluit, the solicitor general and I agreed with our provincial and territorial colleagues on an action plan. That plan has several key elements, but expanded and strengthened legislative tools were at the forefront of this national response.

We recognize that tougher and more effective laws are not the full answer to the problem of organized crime. The enforcement program that we announced when the bill was introduced demonstrates our commitment to attacking the problem on all fronts.

The first aspect of Bill C-24 involves a range of steps to deal with the intimidation of persons involved in the criminal justice system. There are those who ask why is it necessary to amend the law to deal with the intimidation of persons involved in the criminal justice system. They point to a number of provisions in the criminal code that might be employed to address this issue. The simple answer is that the existing law needs to be strengthened.

The criminal justice system depends for its proper functioning upon the participation of various members of our community. There are the professionals responsible for the investigation and prosecution of crime, the judges and those who deal with convicted offenders, and members of the public who participate as witnesses and jurors.

For all stakeholders to be able to participate effectively, they and those with whom they are associated must be free to act without being subjected to threats, prejudice, intimidation or physical injury.

In recent times prosecutors, judges, witnesses, police and prison guards, as well as their families, have been subjected to intimidation intended to destabilize the criminal justice system. The purpose of intimidation is to interfere with the ability to hold trials in an environment conducive to proper deliberations where participants in the system feel free to play the role expected of them.

Whether acts of intimidation are subtle or explicit they are of particular concern with regard to the prosecution of organized crime. Concern about organized crime was shared by members of parliament. Last year the subcommittee on organized crime was struck to examine a myriad of issues related to organized crime. It brought forward recommendations which included two specific criminal code amendments intended to address concerns over intimidation.

I am pleased to note that Bill C-24 implements both those recommendations. One of those recommendations called for the enactment of measures beyond those now in place to more fully protect jurors serving in trials related to organized crime.

Accordingly the government proposes changes to the jury selection process set out in the criminal code to allow a judge to order that the names and addresses of prospective jurors not be read out in open court. A judge would be empowered in appropriate cases to ban the publication of any information that could disclose the identity of a juror.

Additionally Bill C-24 not only increases the penalty associated with the existing offence of intimidation to five years imprisonment. It introduces a new offence punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment to deal with acts of intimidation that target justice system participants intended to impede the administration of criminal justice.

A new section of the criminal code would make it an offence to engage in acts of violence against a justice system participant or a family member of that participant. It would be an offence to harass, stalk or threaten these people with the intention of either provoking a state of fear in a group of persons or the general public in order to impede the administration of justice or a justice system participant in the performance of his or her duties.

I turn my attention now to the aspect of Bill C-24 that seeks to protect law enforcement officers from criminal liability when for legitimate law enforcement purposes they commit acts that would otherwise be illegal.

The Supreme Court of Canada in its unanimous 1999 judgment in Regina v Campbell and Shirose stated that the police was not immune from criminal liability for criminal activities committed in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. However, while observing that “everybody is subject to the ordinary law of the land”, the supreme court explicitly recognized that “if some form of public interest immunity is to be extended to the police..., it should be left to parliament to delineate the nature and scope of the immunity and the circumstances in which it is available”. Through Bill C-24 the government takes up the challenge offered to it by the Supreme Court of Canada and properly assumes its responsibility to provide guidance.

After issuing a consultation paper last year and engaging in much consultation the government has put the proposals before the House. The proposed scheme contemplates several means of ensuring accountability. These involve a combination of new legislative measures contained in Bill C-24, police training, as well as reliance on existing judicial and disciplinary means to ensure compliance with rules governing their use of powers given under the law.

The legislation does not propose the granting of blanket immunity to all law enforcement officers for unlawful acts committed in the course of carrying out lawful law enforcement responsibilities. However, the legislation does provide a form of very limited immunity. Colleagues need to understand that for many years law enforcement authorities were working on the basis that they had common law immunity. All the supreme court did was make it plain that there was not common law immunity but called upon parliament to put in place a legislative scheme if it saw fit.

Here is how the scheme would work. When a public officer is engaged in the enforcement of any act of the Parliament of Canada, doing that which would otherwise constitute an offence may be permissible if the following elements exist.

First, before the person can act he or she must be designated a competent authority. The individual must also believe on reasonable grounds that committing the act or failing to act is the reasonable course of action and proportional in the circumstances and including whether there is any other available means of carrying out their duty.

Nothing in the proposed scheme would provide immunity for the intentional or criminally negligent causing of death or bodily harm; the wilful attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice; or conduct that would violate the sexual integrity of an individual.

Another feature of the legislative package before us today is a new approach to addressing participation in the activities of criminal organizations. The bill contains a new definition of criminal organization and three new offences that effectively criminalize the full range of involvement with organized crime.

At its core, the danger of organized crime flows from the enhanced threat posed to society when people combine for the commission of serious crimes. Historically criminal law has responded to this elevated harm by punishing individuals for engaging in conspiracy and for aiding or abetting the commission of specific offences.

In 1997 in Bill C-95 parliament went further and directly targeted organizations of such individuals for the very first time by providing a definition of criminal organization, increased investigative powers and increased penalties for those committing crimes in conjunction with criminal organizations.

Law enforcement officials and provincial attorneys general have called for a simplified definition of criminal organization and for offences that respond to all harmful forms of involvement in criminal organizations. That is precisely what we have done in the legislation before the House today.

The current definition only covers criminal organizations that have at least five members, at least two of whom have committed serious offences within the preceding five years. As well, the organizations themselves must be shown to have been committing crimes punishable by a maximum sentence of five years or more in prison.

Canada is a signatory to the United Nations convention against organized crime which affirms that a group of three persons having the aim of committing serious crimes constitutes a sufficient threat to society to warrant special scrutiny from the criminal justice system.

I believe that Canadians want our law enforcement officials to be able to target criminal groups of three or more individuals, one of whose main purposes or activities is either committing serious crimes or making it easier for others to commit serious crimes.

In conjunction with a more streamlined definition, the full range of involvement with criminal organizations is targeted in Bill C-24 by three new offences.

The first offence targets participation in or contribution to the activities of criminal organizations. Taking part in the activities of a criminal organization, even if such participation does not itself constitute an offence, will now be a crime where such actions are done for the purpose of enhancing the ability of the criminal organization to facilitate or commit indictable offences.

The bill also addresses the concern expressed by law enforcement officials and provincial attorneys general that the current requirement of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was a party to a specific crime shields from prosecution those in the upper echelons of criminal organizations who isolate themselves from its day to day activities.

We know that successful recruitment enhances the threat posed to society by criminal organizations. It allows them to grow and to more effectively achieve their harmful criminal objectives. Those who act as recruiters for criminal organizations contribute to these ends both when they recruit for specific crimes and when they recruit simply to expand the organization's human capital.

Thus the expressed provisions of the proposed participation offence make it clear that the crown does not in making its case need to link the impugned participation, in this case recruitment, to any particular offence.

Some have called for mere membership in a criminal organization to be an offence. In my view such a proposal would be extremely difficult to apply and would be vulnerable to charter challenges.

The second new offence retains the core of section 467.1 of the criminal code which is the criminal organization offence introduced in Bill C-95. The new offence targets those who aid, abet, counsel or commit any indictable offence in conjunction with a criminal organization.

Unlike the existing provision, it would not require the crown to prove both that the accused has participated in or substantially contributed to the activities of a criminal organization and that he or she has been a party to the commission of an indictable offence punishable by five or more years of imprisonment. The participation-contribution requirement has been removed entirely and the range of offences targeted has been broadened to include all indictable offences.

The third new offence deals specifically with leaders in criminal organizations. Like the participation offence, it does so not by criminalizing status but by proscribing the harmful behaviour itself.

Leaders of criminal organizations pose a unique threat to society. Operationally they threaten us through their enhanced experience and skills. Motivationally they threaten us through their constant encouragement of potential and existing criminal organization members. Accordingly in the bill we have moved aggressively to identify, target and punish those within criminal organizations, whether or not formally designated as leaders, who knowingly instruct others to commit any offence, indictable or otherwise, under any act of parliament for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with a criminal organization.

The penalty provisions for the three offences I have outlined confirm the government's resolve to provide a proportionate and graduated means of addressing all forms of involvement with criminal organizations and to ultimately break the back of organized crime in Canada. The participation offence I previously described is punishable by a maximum of five years of imprisonment, the party liability offence by a maximum of 14 years of imprisonment, and the leadership related offence is punishable by a maximum of life imprisonment.

Furthermore each of these punishments has been fortified by an appropriately aggressive sentencing regime. Its two critical components are mandatory imposition of consecutive sentences for the offences and a presumptive parole ineligibility period of one-half the imposed sentence. When these measures are combined with our newly expanded and improved criminal forfeiture scheme our message to organized crime is clear: crime does not, will not and must not pay in Canada, and we will take all necessary measures to ensure the continued safety of our homes, streets and communities.

Not all provisions of the bill specifically target organized crime groups. Several elements in the proposed legislation are meant to improve criminal law generally. These improvements to the law will nonetheless be extremely useful in combating organized crime.

The offences initially listed as enterprise crimes were those considered most likely to be committed by organized crime groups. Over the years, as organized crime evolved and moved into new areas of criminal activity, new offences were added to the list of enterprise crimes. Today the list of such crimes stands at over 40 with no indication that we will stop adding new offences to the list.

At the same time, by limiting the proceeds of crime provisions to certain listed offences, we have created two types of criminal: the criminal whose proceeds are subject to the proceeds of crime provisions of the code and whose illicit profits can be ordered forfeited by the courts, and the criminal whose profits fall outside the reach of the proceeds provisions of the code.

Furthermore, there is a proposal to eliminate the enterprise crime list approach and expand the application of the proceeds of crime provisions to designated offences, that is, to most indictable federal offences. In this manner the profits from the commission of most serious crimes would be subject to forfeiture. All existing protections, such as notice provisions, applications to revoke or vary orders, appeals and remedies, will of course continue to be available to the accused and to third parties.

Canada must be in a position to offer the necessary assistance to foreign countries that have successfully investigated and prosecuted members of organized crime groups and whose courts have ordered the confiscation of tainted property located in Canada. I would like to ensure that Canada is not singled out for its inability to provide the necessary assistance to help such jurisdictions obtain the confiscated property.

Accordingly, the bill proposes a number of amendments to the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act that would allow Canada to enforce foreign confiscation orders. That is important. The provisions contained in the proposed legislation would allow Canada to respond on the basis of a treaty to requests from a foreign jurisdiction for assistance in enforcing a confiscation order issued by a court in that jurisdiction in relation to proceeds of crime derived from the commission of a criminal offence for which the accused was convicted. In anticipation of a confiscation request, Canada would also be able to provide assistance in respect of a request to seize or restrain the targeted proceeds located in Canada.

The proposed amendments would also facilitate requests from Canada regarding the enforcement of restraint or forfeiture orders for proceeds of crime located in foreign jurisdictions.

The last element that I want to stress deals with offence related property. The bill contains amendments to make the offence related property forfeiture regime in the code apply to all indictable offences. As well, the present exemption from forfeiture for most real property would be eliminated.

I believe the measures I have outlined today would ensure that we have the tools necessary to combat the increased threat of organized crime. Let there be no mistake that the proposals before us would provide more effective laws and aggressive prosecution strategies to target organized crime at all levels.

I thank colleagues for their support of this initiative. I look forward to their support because the initiative would ensure that our streets and communities are safe from a most pernicious element within our society, organized crime.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-24, entitled an act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)