Bill C-15 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to provide for minimum penalties for serious drug offences, to increase the maximum penalty for cannabis (marihuana) production and to reschedule certain substances from Schedule III to that Act to Schedule I.
As well, it requires that a review of that Act be undertaken and a report submitted to Parliament.
The enactment also makes related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

Controlled Drugs and Substances Act

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, if the record of the hon. gentlemen and his party was so good, why, after his party's 13 years in government, do we still have crime in Canada? For crying out loud, if the Liberals did such a great job, why do we still have crime? I guess they fixed it all and then, on January 23, 2006, it sprang out of nowhere and here we are.

I seriously believe that the hon. member wants to be tough on all aspects of crime. I think one of the problems is that there are a lot of people in his party who are quite a bit to the political left of where he is. I think a lot of them have relied on their twin pillars of touchy and feely a bit too much.

I would ask my hon. colleague, did this all just start again on January 23, 2006? Get real.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to talk about the two pillars of touchy and feely. There is nothing but propriety over here. I might talk about the two chains of throw them away and forget about them, which is kind of what the Conservative philosophy is.

I appreciate the member's comments about us. I think I have spoken in this House enough and all of us are united in wanting safe communities. We all want safe communities. We are trying to have a legitimate debate about how to do that. I am just encouraging the Conservative government to open its eyes like that puppy and see that there are other things out there that might help to eliminate and curb criminal activity. It starts very small and it continues on after people get out of prison.

When the Vancouver Board of Trade agrees there is more to crime than just throwing legislation at it, I really do think there is a moment for non-partisan co-operation to try to fix this. Here we are agreeing with some of the Conservatives' legislation, but urging them and encouraging them to do more, to open their eyes and to just stop trying to be John Wayne.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's understanding of this complex issue and his reluctance to take on the simplistic answers that I am hearing from the other side.

Of course we on this side of the House are supporting issues that would make our communities safer. However, he is stressing the fact that these are real people who are concerned and that these are complex issues that start with families, communities, health care, education, social services and the kinds of things the Conservative government has failed to see.

I wonder whether or not the particular costs of the corrections system are something that are of concern to the member, looking at the inadequate services for mental health for inmates, for corrections and for helping people who one day will get out of jail.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member comes from a background in the ministry. He cares about people and he knows that even if we are all created equal, which I think is in the Bible, we do not all have the same opportunities growing up.

It is so evident when we look at the statistics with respect to people who commit crimes and people who are recidivists. That is again something the Conservative government has ignored. The high incidence of aboriginal inmates has not been looked at thoroughly. We deal at the justice committee only with the bill du jour.

I must say this is not within the domain of the justice committee, but on the issue of public safety, there is no better case to illustrates the lack of attention to corrections issues than the case of Moncton native Ashley Smith who died cold and alone in a cell where she was with other inmates who did not have mental health issues, other inmates who were not children, teens or youth, other inmates who were not women.

For women, youth and the mentally ill, our system is inadequate, and it should be addressed by the public safety minister. It has been a couple of weeks now. There has been no response, but we will be on it. We will continue. It is our job for Canadians and we will do that.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like clarification on what the Liberal position is on the mandatory minimums. I heard the member speak extensively about a broader strategy, but this bill actually focuses on mandatory minimums for drug crimes.

As we have already pointed out in the House today, there is a wealth of evidence to show there is no deterrent in bringing in mandatory minimums particularly for drug crimes.

I wonder if the Liberals are actually supportive of mandatory minimums in terms of drug crimes. Are they opposed to them in principle? Are they willing to look at the bill and move it around a bit? Really, what is their position? I have not heard that very clearly today.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, our position is that the bill will go to committee and be studied.

To say that there is a unanimous opinion that mandatory minimums do not work in some cases on drug offences or otherwise is just not true.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I said overwhelming.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

If I could finish, Mr. Speaker, that is why we have a committee.

If the member sits there and says that she wants to be the committee, Parliament and the Governor General, that is fine with me, but that is not the way our system works. The hon. member just spoke eloquently on how we all have a right to speak and think. The committee will examine this.

A well-known criminal lawyer who teaches drug policy at the University of Ottawa has said that these tougher penalties, the mandatory minimums, might work for the ma and pa producer and the youth. It might be a deterrent and it might work, but it might not work for organized crime. That is the kind of nitty-gritty issue the committee will delve into.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in the House on Bill C-15. Once again, as I said last week about the bill of my colleague from Jeanne-Le Ber, it feels like everyone in the House is stuck inside the movie Groundhog Day, because we keep going over the same bills. This bill was introduced by the last Minister of Justice in the last Parliament. It has been amended a bit to give more mention to rehabilitation, but not enough to really change anything.

As my colleague has said, this government seems to want to bring in bills that are wholly punitive, rather than to think about the underlying reasons why youth and others end up involved with crime and criminals.

First and foremost, we absolutely must address the causes and effects of crime. We are well aware that our young people between the ages of 15 and 24, who account for 2.5% of drug users, find themselves very much at loose ends in the economic crisis we are experiencing at present. Often their families are unemployed but do not have access to EI benefits. Often family members have been without work for more than a year and so are no longer receiving benefits. They are living in obvious poverty and the government is doing nothing for them.

When young people find themselves in situations like this, it is certainly harder for them to have to deal with reality and easier to take the easy way out. I do not mean to imply that I am in favour of that. Believe me, it is awful to see young people addicted to meth or crack, and not anything we want to see happen to our children.

When the matter of imposing minimum sentences comes up, however, it is very important to keep in mind that in the American states that have minimum sentences, such as California, Florida and Montana, they have opted for leaving the possibility for prosecutors and courts to set lesser sentences than the minimum imposed for certain offences.

In Canada, on the other hand, judges have no choice but to impose the minimum sentence set out for a given offence. This means that young people, who have undeniably made serious mistakes, will end up with minimum sentences from which they will learn nothing. Nothing whatsoever is learned in prison.

It is also disappointing that the bill does not contain measures to help youth and adults get off drugs. As mentioned earlier by my colleague for Vancouver East, some projects are working very well. For example, InSite, in Vancouver, was very effective and significantly reduced risks associated with injection drugs.

However, the government does not believe that these are good programs. Even though the World Health Organization, the mayor and police of Vancouver and doctors say that InSite is a good program, the Minister of Health says that the government does not want it, that it is not a good program, that we absolutely must rid ourselves of anyone who takes illicit drugs and that we should get rid of InSite. That is not how we will fix the problem.

Jailing those addicted to injection drugs, often means condemning them to becoming infected with HIV.

Quite often, those incarcerated who used cannabis or other so-called soft drugs, but not injection drugs, end up with very different drug habits and often end up taking injection drugs. When that happens, they may not necessarily have the tools to take the drugs safely. Thus, 30 or 40 inmates share a needle and we end up with a multitude of AIDS and HIV cases that makes the prison population increasingly dangerous. Our children leave these prisons after using drugs in those conditions without knowing that they are HIV positive. Quite often, it is possible for individuals to live with HIV for many years before testing positive for AIDS. In the meantime, they can unwittingly pass it on to many others.

I realize that the government probably had good intentions when drafting this bill. However, it has to be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in order for it to be amended and better reflect the society in which we live.

Even though the bill did not pass last year, we know that offences committed by drug users decreased by 3% last year. Since the crime rate went down without any incentives—like prison sentences that would prevent people from wanting to commit offences—why are some people in such a hurry to impose minimum sentences to ensure that young people do not use drugs? That is not how it works. Telling someone that if they are caught with 3 kg of marijuana they will go to prison for two years will not necessarily stop that person from walking around with 3 kg of marijuana in their possession, when that is their bread and butter. If that is their livelihood, that person is probably not going to stop selling marijuana.

There are other ways to teach our young people and the general public that drugs are not necessarily the solution to problems. As a woman, I know many women struggle with this phenomenon. They are forced to deal with spouses who use drugs or who unfortunately sell drugs. That is another problem. Indeed, as is usually the case, women cannot count on this government's support for things like violence against women and matters of employment insurance. If their spouse can no longer sell drugs, they will only end up on the street that much faster. I see my colleague from the Standing Committee on the Status of Women smiling. She understands very well why I say this. I will not say her name, but she knows who she is.

This bill goes much too far in the use of minimum sentences. It goes much too far in terms of Conservative ideological thinking. It does nothing to ensure that our youth and other people do not use or sell drugs. The only thing this bill does is give the Conservatives some good publicity, while they do nothing about the root causes of drug use.

That is really too bad, because for years now, we have been saying, over and over, that we need programs to make sure that our young people, victims and drug addicts—those addicted to either soft or hard drugs—can get into detox and overcome their problems without having to go to jail.

It is really sad to see that the government wants to send 14-, 15-, and 16-year-old kids to jail for reasons like that. Of course, nobody wants to see anyone die because of a drug addiction. That is what happens when people are addicted to heroin, morphine, cocaine and crack. We have all seen documentaries that are truly horrifying, the stuff of nightmares for mothers, but at the same time, as a mother, I absolutely do not want my child to be sent to jail for this kind of offence. I would rather my child receive the help he needs to get clean. We have seen terrifying documentaries.

When the Conservatives talk about their programs and bills, everything they say is about penalties and criminalization. They never talk about rehabilitation and ways to help people. That is a shame because it creates a really bad image.

Quebeckers heard enough about penalties for juvenile delinquents during last year's election campaign, and they let the Conservatives know what they thought. They have not changed their minds. No matter what our Conservative colleagues tell us, Quebeckers know that rehabilitation—helping young people overcome their addictions—is always better than sentencing them to even short periods of jail time.

A couple of years ago, we sought assurance that the Minister of Health would extend the mandate of Vancouver's InSite for at least a year. When he did so, he and I spoke at length, because I really believed in his ability to recognize the importance of such programs.

In Quebec there are a number of programs that meet the needs of drug users who want to get off drugs. There are a number of places that look after young people who want to quit, and a number of free programs for them, such as Maison Jean-Lapointe, as well as many other detox centres where our youth can go. Very often these enable our young people to leave much for the better, stronger and better equipped for life, and without any criminal conviction that would very likely end up making them criminals for life.

My colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin has a long history with the justice sector in Quebec and has experience with such subjects and cases. He has even defended drug addicts and seen some of them do well when he has sent them to detox and helped them to understand the importance of getting clean and rehabilitated. It does work.

Contrary to what our Conservative colleagues tell us, minimum sentences do not work. They do not work in the U.S. where crime is on the increase. This has been observed for years, ever since minimum sentences were introduced, and the system does not work any better. Judges have to work out ways within their various jurisdictions to get prosecutors and the American justice system to deviate from the law and allow them to set the sentences themselves. They are very much aware that minimum sentences do not work and that, very often, they are far too heavy for the crime committed.

I hope that we in this House will not again make the mistake of not listening to the Department of Justice. They produced a very good document explaining all this and saying that there should not be any minimum sentences here, because judges do not have the right to set lesser sentences.

I hope our colleagues will think very hard before passing this bill without amendments or changes.

For our part, we certainly want to study it in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, where my colleague from Hochelagawill take pleasure in examining it in depth and making the necessary changes. He too is very familiar with the minds of Quebeckers and with the spirit of the law. Most of all, he knows that if we want justice to be equitable, we must have the means first to make it so.

To do that, we must start by putting money where it counts. We must start by putting money into social housing and into programs to support families and fight poverty. We have to make sure that all men, women and children have enough to eat, pay the rent and find happiness.

One of the chief reasons why people take drugs, whether hard or soft, is they think drugs will make them happy, when in actual fact, they do not do anything for them, except make them dead in all too many cases.

Once again, I hope my colleagues will think twice before passing this bill too quickly. That is what the Minister of Justice apparently wanted this morning. I hope he will reconsider and be a little less strident in his demands for us to pass it quickly

We should ensure that the bill accurately reflects the needs of Canadians and not just the ideology of the governing Conservative Party.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague across the way and I want to correct a false impression that has been fostered by people across the way about the allegation that this government is not doing anything on the prevention side. Three or four things pop quickly to hand.

On April 28, 2008, the Minister of Justice and the minister of health and public safety at the time announced a drug treatment fund of $111 million to boost drug treatments that are available to young people at risk. On August 12, 2008, the Minister of Justice also announced a program in Prince Edward Island with $300,000 to improve addiction support programs and services for youth in conflict with the law.

In the province of British Columbia, there are five programs in a number of areas. These include: the Surrey Board of Education's Wraparound Surrey: A Youth Driven Comprehensive Plan for Gang Violence Prevention; in Vancouver, Creating Health Aboriginal Role Models, otherwise called CHARM; the McCreary Centre Society's Aboriginal Next Steps II: Aboriginal Youth Getting’ Busy in the Community; Urban Native Youth Association's Aboriginal Youth First: Sports and Recreation Program for Vancouver Downtown Eastside; the College of New Caledonia, Lakes District Campus' Youth Outreach Program.

There are millions of dollars in those programs and those are but a few examples. To say that we are concentrating only on the punitive end is simply untrue and that impression should not be left with the Canadian public.

This bill will go to committee where I am sure it will be studied carefully. It was mentioned that mandatory minimums can deter mom and pop. It was agreed on the other side that that was a good idea and I support that. I also accept that mandatory minimums may not deter organized crime but maybe criminals of organized crime ought to be spending their time in jail in any event.

I am not sure if my colleague really meant this but it is what she said and I want a clarification. She implied that keeping drug dealers in business so that wives of drug dealers may not be financially disadvantaged would be a good idea or somehow fair. I would like her to clarify that.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not want to imply that it was good to keep drug dealers in business. What I wanted to say is that before imposing legislation like this, we should be absolutely certain that everything has been done to make sure that people are not forced to make a living this way.

That is something the government has not done. The government is not doing it and has no intention of doing it. We saw it with employment insurance, we saw it with pay equity, and we saw it with social housing. We have seen it everywhere.

Before passing legislation like this, we should ensure that people can live their lives fully, because that is something to which they are entitled.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member from the Bloc for what I would call her common sense approach to this question. I am glad she focused on young people and drug use and what happens to young people when they become incarcerated as opposed to focusing on education, prevention and treatment.

Treatment is a huge issue. I must take issue with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence who just put out a bunch of information to imply that somehow the government was doing all this stuff around treatment and prevention by announcing a few projects here and there. The fact is, however, that, in terms of the drug strategy, over 70% of the federal resources are going to enforcement. Even the Auditor General, in her report a few years ago, raised the question as to why so much money was being spent on enforcement and what kind of value it had.

I am not sure if the hon. member is familiar with a group called Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy. It is a new organization that actually started in Montreal. They are saying that they do not want this bill to go ahead in their name because young people are being almost exploited by the Conservatives who are saying that this is being done to protect young people. Young people understand that this kind of bill is one where young people will end up in jail and will not get the treatment they need.

I wonder if the member would comment on the fact that the Conservative government has dropped things like harm reduction, prevention and treatment and has focused on enforcement. Does she think that anything has improved as a result of that?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague. This is indeed a major problem with the Conservative government. It does nothing to ensure that children and even adults have what they need to avoid turning to drugs or some similar path. I am not familiar with the organization to which my colleague referred, but the members can rest assured that I will meet with them to make sure that people are familiarized with their position. It is true that this is not what our young people want. I do not think that any young person in Canada or Quebec wants to go to prison just to please a few Conservative ideologues.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Mr. Speaker, through you, I would like to ask the hon. member a question. I understand that she has great compassion and sympathy for young people, and that is also the case for us, whatever they may think. I would like to ask the following question.

There is now a court that deals with drug addiction. The court is established in the antidrug legislation and is involved with treatment for drug addiction. There are drug courts in Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Vancouver. Since Bloc members always say that they represent the interests of Quebec, I would like to know why there are no such courts in Montreal or Quebec City. Can she explain that to me? From the outset, these courts have been there to protect young people, to help them get off drugs and to provide them with assistance because it is clearly not in their interests to send them to prison. Since they often say that they represent the Quebec National Assembly, why do these courts not exist in Quebec?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, much as I would like to represent the National Assembly, I do not. We often stand up for the decisions of the National Assembly in this House because no one else does. We do not represent the National Assembly, but rather the citizens of our ridings who have given us their trust and elected us.

I would like the hon. member to tell me if he is aware of a report released in Belgium on March 10. The report looks at the drug situation around the world. It noted that, until 2006, there was a levelling-off in the growth of opium and the various drugs that can be made from opium, but that, since 2006, shockingly since the time that so much money has been poured into Afghanistan, there has been exponential growth in drugs like opium in that country. Nothing like it has ever been seen before. Can he explain how he thinks that his army is going to be able to put a stop to that growth over there rather than trying to put a stop to our children's lives here?