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Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

David Mulroney  Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

Good evening, colleagues. I'd like to begin our meeting.

First I'll let people know, people who might be watching on television, this is another televised meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan, and it's televised in keeping with our desire to increase communication, both within Parliament and with Canadians across the country. This is our fourth meeting.

Tonight we're honoured to have with us Mr. Mulroney, who is the deputy minister responsible for the Afghanistan Task Force. He oversees interdepartmental coordination of all aspects of Canada's engagement in Afghanistan. Also, as a point of interest, Mr. Mulroney was the secretary to the Independent Panel on Canada's Future Role in Afghanistan, known as the Manley panel. Of course, we'll be having Mr. Manley and some of his panel members in front of our committee in one of our future meetings.

I believe Mr. Mulroney has a short presentation, an opening statement, to make. He was just in Afghanistan and he has brought back some slides he would like to show the committee. Then I'm planning two rounds of questioning--a seven-minute round and a five-minute round. At the conclusion of the meeting we'll have some committee business to conduct.

On that note, Mr. Mulroney, I turn the floor over to you.

David Mulroney Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

I recently had the chance to appear before some of you on the committee on national defence to speak about the outcomes for Canada at the Bucharest summit of NATO and to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities we face looking ahead in Afghanistan. Today, I'd like to provide a brief update on things we've been doing over the course of the last month in the task force I head, and to talk about what we see as the way forward.

As you know, the government has responded to the Manley panel by creating a special cabinet committee on Afghanistan and a task force at the centre of government at PCO, and that's a task force I lead. The cabinet committee, which is chaired by Minister Emerson, is taking a hard look at the mission in Afghanistan with the intent of revising and strengthening our approach. In addition to supporting Minister Emerson and his committee, I've also been working with a subcommittee of deputy ministers from the key departments concerned to ensure that our programming is harmonized in support of those key priorities.

The cabinet committee has made considerable efforts to establish the strategic priorities that will guide Canada's actions in Afghanistan until 2011.

Those priorities will serve as the basis of the Canadian program, the orientations of which will be extensively reviewed to help us achieve our objectives. Canada will be in a position to make a more targeted contribution to the development priorities established by Afghanistan.

What we're working on right now, in addition to setting the policy priorities and focusing on core programming, is to be sure we've got the right civilian footprint on the ground to achieve those objectives. We're currently working with the core civilian departments concerned to coordinate the next level of deployments of civilians to Kandahar, and I'll talk about that a little bit when I show you a few pictures from my recent trip. Right now, we have approximately 25 civilians with the provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar. We had an interdepartmental team out there last week to talk about how we can reshape that and build on it.

On the diplomatic front, we will continue to strengthen connections with our main partners in the south, with countries like the Netherlands, Australia, the U.K., and pursue a more robust strategy internationally that presses for greater coordination among international partners. That's largely what we were working on at Bucharest.

I was in Washington recently with representatives from lead departments to talk about the way forward, and I had the chance while I was in Afghanistan to visit Regional Command East, which is largely a U.S.-led effort, and to see the operation of the provincial reconstruction team at Helmand, which is run by the U.K. Just today, I met with a delegation from the French government, which is working on organizing next month's Paris conference on Afghanistan.

Finally, I've had a couple of very useful meetings--one in Ottawa and one in Kabul--with Mr. Kai Eide, who is the special representative of the Secretary General and who had a chance to appear before your committee.

Using our diplomatic channels in a careful and focused way will be critical in ensuring we have coordination and also critical in terms of communicating the directions Canada will be taking as we move forward.

The motion introduced in Parliament on March 13 also asked the government to inform the public more frequently and transparently about events taking place in Afghanistan. The task force is cooperating with the departments to develop a comparative analysis framework that will contain realistic objectives. That will make it possible not only to be accountable, but also to assess the areas where improvements could be made.

Afghanistan will require a significant amount of help from the international community to enable progress. That is, I believe, something we should always be conscious of. Afghanistan will be a developing country for some time to come and will have some of the challenges associated with that.

Our goal is to enable a transition to a point where Afghans, themselves, are capable of managing some of those same challenges. So the aim is really about moving Afghanistan along a continuum. The end state, if we look at other examples of post-conflict countries, can be a long time coming, but there does come a time, before that, when the government itself has the ability to meet the challenges it faces. We're seeing progress in that respect.

Before turning to just a quick report on my visit of last week, I'd just like to introduce some colleagues: Sanjeev Chowdhury is the director of operations in the secretariat; Rey Campbell, Owen Teo, and Marco Popic are also members of our new task force in PCO.

I was in Afghanistan last week with Kevin Lynch, the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Rob Fonberg, who is the deputy minister of National Defence, and Sanjeev to do a number of things. One was that Kevin had visited Afghanistan a little over a year ago and wanted to get back, particularly to Kabul and Kandahar, to see progress. We also wanted to be sure we were touching base with key allies and taking soundings from various regions in Afghanistan as we plan the way forward. Finally, we wanted to meet with the interdepartmental team I had sent out ahead to plan for the next deployment of civilians. We did all those things in the course of last week.

We can go to the first slide. I apologize that it's a little hard to see. Turquoise Mountain is a project in Kabul that has been established by an English diplomat-soldier-NGO leader named Rory Stewart, who wrote a book about his walk across Afghanistan called The Places In Between.

Canada was the first country to come in behind Rory and support his project, which is essentially to develop an area of downtown Kabul. This had once been devoted to people who worked up in the palace on the hill. Over time it became completely decrepit, and in the years of chaos and war it actually got covered in about five feet of garbage.

Rory's view is that if the centre of your capital city is buried under five feet of garbage, it's really hard for people to believe there's a future, there's hope for the country. So he set about really excavating it—it's almost a Pompeii-like operation—to bring it back to its original state. The project is also to provide opportunities to redevelop some traditional arts. He's got some schools there for young people and for artisans. Revitalizing the neighbourhood has also brought people back.

There's a Shia shrine just nearby. There are a couple of traditional sites: restaurants, bathhouses. So the effect is that you actually have more people walking freely in this part of Kabul than in almost any other part.

The next slide shows some of the things they're working on. You can't see it really well, but calligraphy is a big part of this, traditional carving from various parts of Afghanistan. Importantly, you have women and men who are working on the carvings. Although it's recreating traditional arts, I think their view is that a country can't move forward until it's connected with its past, and Afghanistan had lost that.

There's also an entrepreneurial dimension in that these things are sold. Rory has established connections with lots of outlets in North America and in Europe, and he has a website that's doing a thriving business.

We spent some time in the centre of Afghanistan, in the central highlands, in Bamiyan. Here, if you can just spot the laser pointer, that's a Shura or a community development council. The one in Bamiyan is actually a cluster of councils. It brings together a number of these groups, and importantly, they are councils of men and women who meet together.

This is supported by the Aga Khan Development Network, so in turn it's supported by funding from Canada. They plan out community activities, community economic development needs. I had a chance to chat with them, and I asked the group what they saw as their greatest need going forward. A gentleman on one side of the room said, “We think it's supporting agriculture”. Three women stood up and said, “No, no, it's education”. The men said, “Actually, they're right; it's education”. It was a very lively discussion, and in fact education is one of our programming priorities.

We also had a chance to visit—this picture here—the hospital in Bamiyan, which has a real focus on lowering a terrible rate of infant mortality in Afghanistan. They've made some inroads in that.

The next slide shows the shura. Patrol Base Wilson is out in the Zhari district of Kandahar. It's just west of Kandahar. This was an area that in 2006 was controlled by the Taliban and was the scene of some of the heaviest fighting in Operation Medusa.

The head of the shura is shown here. Our ambassador, Arif Lalani, is seated beside him.

We had a good chance to talk with him about what he saw as his needs going forward. In addition to hearing from him, we had some expectations too. We talked about what the shura and local leaders could do to increase security in that part of the Zhari district. It's a two-way street, and with increasing security we can do more by way of programming.

The next slide is of a visit to a school in Kandahar. It shows the director of education. Canada is providing funding to a project called EQUIP, which is building schools in various parts of Afghanistan. There will be a particular focus on Kandahar, and the director of education was relatively confident that he can push this project out—we're in Kandahar City right now—into other parts of the province quite quickly.

The next person may be a little hard to see. It's Elissa Goldberg, who is the representative of Canada in Kandahar—the acronym is ROC—and the ROC is the senior Canadian on the ground in Kandahar. She is the person who coordinates the work of Foreign Affairs, CIDA, the RCMP, and Correctional Services. She's the counterpart to General Laroche, or now of General Thompson, who is the commander of Task Force Afghanistan.

She is there with a police trainer and a person from Correctional Services. This is at the in-service training facility at our PRT. They're training Afghan National Police on such things as procedures for safely detaining suspects and also how to identify IEDs.

The first thing we do with the police is teach them survival skills, because some of the IEDs that are planned use very diabolical strategies. We've been able to teach the police ways of identifying IEDs and safely disarming them to keep themselves alive.

The other thing I would point out is that in a couple of these meetings we were out to the west of Kandahar City. In addition to meeting with the Canadian Forces, we have people such as Elissa and Karen Foss, a young foreign service officer, who are out there on a regular basis. Karen Foss goes out to some of our bases about one week a month to work with the forces as they try to build community networks out beyond Kandahar City.

Our current civilian deployment at the PRT is about 25. We think we can at least double that number this year. We're thinking carefully about how we deploy these people safely, but they have an important job to do. Whether it's in police training, building community networks, or advising the provincial government in Kandahar, our civilians are really standing up and sharing the burden that our forces have led with.

I'll stop with that and will be happy to take questions.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

Thank you very much, Mr. Mulroney. That was a very interesting presentation, particularly given your recent return from Afghanistan itself.

We'll now move into the first round of questioning and we'll start with Mr. Rae.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Mulroney, it's nice to see you again. I don't want to jeopardize your career, but I would say we've had a long and very productive association over many years. I'm delighted you're working on this file for Canada.

How often does the cabinet committee meet?

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

The cabinet committee meets, on average, once a week while the House is sitting. I think we've had seven meetings now.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

And how many are on your task force?

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

In my task force at PCO I have about 25 people now.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

This is obviously a bit of an easy question, but how well do you think we're doing in following...?

You were advising the Manley report as well, weren't you?

How well do you think we're doing on implementing the new direction that Mr. Manley has suggested we should be taking?

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

I had a chance to chat with one of the members of the Manley panel who was in town today, and he was expressing his gratitude for the way the report had been picked up.

The government immediately set up a cabinet committee—that was a recommendation—which created the task force in PCO. They launched a diplomatic strategy that was aimed at securing the thousand additional troops and the enablers, the UAVs, and the helicopters.

What we're doing now in the committee and at the departmental level is, first, working to establish a limited set of key priorities; second, ensuring that we're aligning our programming behind those; third, working on the establishment of benchmarks to measure progress; and fourth, working continually on communications.

I think we have an ambitious work program in place and I think it's true to the direction the Manley panel was giving. I've always believed that the core message of the Manley panel is that you have to take control of your own strategy in a place like Kandahar. That means being really clear about priorities and really clear about what you can do in a certain amount of time, and I think the government is doing that.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

When I was in the area last year, I spent quite a bit of time in Pakistan. One of my overriding concerns or takeaways from that was simply that it's very difficult to deal with the insurgency unless we're able to deal with the situation in northwest Pakistan in particular.

Do you think we have a handle on that situation?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

You're absolutely right, and I don't think it's possible to contain an insurgency if there is unrestricted access across a border.

There are a number of things. One is that regarding political change in Pakistan, these are still early days yet, and the political coalition is still finding its feet and experiencing some challenges right now, but I think the tone of the conversation between Afghanistan and Pakistan is better than it has been in the last couple of years, which is important.

Two, there is a growing realization in Pakistan that the insurgency in Afghanistan and the security problems in Afghanistan have the potential of flowing back across the border into Pakistan. So there is a higher level of self-awareness and self-interest in terms of the need to combat that.

Also, there are some basic but important measures that are taking place on the border to begin to build that basic level of cooperation that you need between two governments. I was out at a place called Torkham Gate, on the Khyber Pass. There's actually a joint coordination centre, where an Afghan official and a Pakistani official sit side by side watching screens. I asked the person who coordinates the centre what kinds of things they work on, and he mentioned that there had been a terrible tanker accident on the road through the Khyber Pass, which killed a number of people. There was a fire raging and others were injured. The Khyber Pass road is so narrow that trucks from Pakistan couldn't get in there. The accident happened on the Pakistan side, but they dispatched emergency vehicles from Afghanistan.

These are still early days. Canada invited a bunch of officials from Pakistan and Afghanistan to meet together in Dubai--these are officials who look at the border--just to talk about the nuts and bolts of how you manage a border, if you think of a border as an economic entity as well as a security barrier.

So these are early days, but we're trying to inculcate a sense that it's in everybody's self-interest to manage the border safely and securely. It's in the economic interests of both to manage it wisely, and an insurgency anywhere along the border threatens both. It's still a big challenge, but I think there's a higher level of engagement on both sides.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Do you think we have the ability to influence Islamabad, in terms of dealing with the underlying issues in the northwest? Do you see us making any progress there at all?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

The message is much more concerted by the main allies. The new government appears to be listening carefully to that message. Actually, I think the presence of more troops in the border areas will help, and is helping already. I think the Americans would say in their sector, in RC-East, that's helping, and we're looking at an increase of people in the south, and that should help too.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

What's the size of our embassy complement or high commission complement now in Islamabad?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

In Islamabad, I'd have to check. I suspect it's probably 20 to 25 Canadians, but I'd have to double-check on that.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

What is it in Kabul now?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

In Kabul, now, we have 30 to 35 Canadians there. That's grown steadily over the course of the last year.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

So you're satisfied we have the diplomatic strength on the ground to begin to effect some of these changes in a geopolitical way that we've been talking about?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

One of the things we've done, in addition to increasing numbers, is to increase the level, the seniority. We currently have in Kabul a diplomat named Arif Lalani. Arif has very good access to President Karzai. He meets with him one on one. In the times when I've had a chance to meet with Afghan officials, they have said spontaneously, “The Canadians are doing a good job, and Arif has our ear”. We've backed him up with a lot of good people. This is something I think the military led on, conveying the sense that this is Canada's number one priority. You have to put your best people in place, and I think we're doing that.

It's interesting--the U.S., the Brits, and others are all struggling with this challenge of deploying as many top-quality people as possible into what is a very difficult operating environment, and I think we've done well.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

What's the typical tour of duty?

6:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

We've had to vary the typical tour of duty, but I'd say it's about a year. We've had people who wanted to stay for two years or three years. But it's also a place where they're without family, and there are difficult living conditions. In Kabul they eat communally and stay on the compound. In Kandahar it's even more restrictive.

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I've been there, so I'm familiar with it.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

Thank you very much, Mr. Rae.

Thank you, Mr. Mulroney.

I noticed that in your previous responses you were talking about Mr. Arif Lalani, our Canadian ambassador to Afghanistan. He will be appearing in front of this committee on May 28 because he will be in Canada. I just wanted to update people on that future appearance.

Madame Barbot.

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Thank you for coming to meet with us again, Mr. Mulroney.

Did the film you presented take place in Kandahar?

6:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office

David Mulroney

It took place in Kandahar, in Kabul as well and in Banyan, in central Afghanistan.