Afghanistan Committee on April 30th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I call the meeting to order.

Today we are holding our fourth meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan. Pursuant to the order of reference of February 10, 2009, this is a study of Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

We have witnesses today for the first hour and a half. We'll save half an hour at the end for committee business; we have some things to deal with.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we have Yves Brodeur, assistant deputy minister, Afghanistan Task Force; and Gallit Dobner, deputy director, governance, rule of law and development, Afghanistan Task Force. And from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Raf Souccar, deputy commissioner, federal policing; and Paul Young, superintendent, program manager, international peace operations branch, in Asia.

We're glad to have you here as we continue our meetings on the mission in Afghanistan.

I think you are probably all familiar with the process. You'll have a few minutes for some opening comments, and then we'll open for rounds of questions from the committee members.

Yves, would you like to start?

[Yves Brodeur, Assistant Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank the members of this committee for inviting us this morning and giving us the opportunity to explain a bit about what we're trying to accomplish in Afghanistan on the policing side.

I'll start with a short introduction.

Mr. Chairman, if I go beyond my time, please wave at me and we can shorten that.

One of Canada's strategic policy priorities is strengthening the capacity of the Afghan National Security Forces. As part of this commitment, Canada supports efforts to strengthen the rule of law by building the capacity of the Afghan National Police to promote law and order in key Kandahar districts, supported by justice and corrections capabilities. The Afghan National Police are a linchpin in building a more secure but also better-governed Kandahar, as they are often the most visible face of the Afghan government across the country.

Today, I will provide you with an overview of the Afghan National Police, the international community's support to the ANP, and Canada's approach to police reform in Afghanistan.

The Ministry of the Interior oversees the Afghan National Police. The appointment of Interior Minister Hanif Atmar in October 2008 resulted in an acceleration of police reform in Afghanistan. With the support of the international community, Minister Atmar immediately established six high-level priorities to improve security and combat corruption. Canada has a good relationship with Minister Atmar, which was further strengthened when Canadian officials facilitated his visit to Kandahar in January 2009.

The ANP comprises six different forces: the Afghan Uniformed Police, the Border Police, the Civil Order Police, the Counter-Narcotics Police, the Criminal Investigation Police and the Counter-Terrorism Police. Given finite resources, the Government of Afghanistan and the international community agreed to a ceiling of 82,000 ANP for the country.

The ANP faces critical challenges, including a lack of sufficient training, equipment, and pay. Illiteracy, corruption, and reported substance abuse further erode their credibility and effectiveness. Moreover, the ANP's casualty rates far outstrip those of the military. In Kandahar, there's an insufficient number of police officers to ensure law and order, and the Ministry of Interior currently lacks the capacity to ensure strategic oversight and logistical support.

Canada is part of a larger international effort to support the development of the ANP. The United States is the leading player in police reform in Afghanistan. Its national focused district development program, known as the FDD, provides an eight-week basic training course to the Afghan uniformed police. To date, the FDD has been rolled out in 52 of 365 Afghan districts. The U.S. is implementing a similar training program for the Afghan border police.

In June 2007, the European Union launched the EU police mission in Afghanistan, known as EUPOL. The mission's mandate is to provide up to 400 police officers to mentor and advise the Ministry of Interior and senior policy officers at national, regional, and provincial headquarters. Currently, the mission has deployed approximately 300 mentors to Afghanistan.

The International Police Coordination Board, established in October 2006, is a multilateral mechanism that serves as a platform for the Minister of Interior and the international community to coordinate their efforts in a strategic and effective manner. Encouraged by the board's restructuring process in fall 2008, Canada became a member of the board in January 2009.

NATO is also looking to increase its support to police reform in Afghanistan. At the NATO summit in April, states agreed to create a NATO training mission to advance NATO efforts in this area. Similarly, the European Gendarmerie is considering options to contribute paramilitary expertise to current police training efforts.

Canada takes a comprehensive approach to building the capacity of the ANP by providing three main lines of support: mentoring and training, infrastructure and equipment, and salary. Mentoring and training is provided to the ANP in Kandahar through 30 civilian and approximately 40 military police mentors.

Our military police are part of the Canadian Forces-led police operational mentor liaison teams, POMLTs--a combination of military police and infantry who provide mentoring to the ANP at police substations, particularly in remote areas, with a view to providing the ANP with essential survivability skills. Canada's civilian police train and mentor the ANP in a range of civilian policing skills that promote law and order and effective force management. As of December 2008, 914--approximately 61%--ANP officers in key districts had completed basic training, and one unit was assessed as capable of near-autonomous operations.

Deputy Commissioner Raf Souccar will explain the role of Canadian civilian police in greater detail.

In addition to training and mentoring, Canada supports the development of the ANP through constructing and upgrading police infrastructure and providing police equipment to ANP in key districts. Infrastructure support is vital in providing secure and defensive structures to the ANP.

The contribution of the Canadian Forces special engineering team is vital in developing and monitoring infrastructure projects in Kandahar. Police infrastructure is supplied with standard living equipment, which raises officers' quality of life, increasing retention. As of December 2008, seven new police facilities were under construction. Canada also provides specialized police equipment to the ANP in order to increase their ability to conduct operations in Kandahar.

Canada provides salary support through the law and order trust fund for Afghanistan, or LOFTA, managed by the United Nations Development Programme. LOFTA allows the international community to support police and corrections officers' salaries. Foreign affairs minister Lawrence Cannon announced $20 million in support of LOFTA during his March visit to Afghanistan, for a total Canadian contribution of close to $70 million since 2002.

Canada also supports capacity-building at the Ministry of Interior to ensure that these three lines of support are sustainable into the future. For instance, Canada has a civilian police adviser directly embedded within the Ministry of Interior to advise the minister on police reform and gender issues and to mentor his staff on policy research.

We recognize that the Afghan National Police force is part of a broader rule of law system that also requires justice and corrections sectors. Therefore, Canada also supports justice and corrections reform initiatives. This includes measures to improve the justice sector to facilitate a working court system in Kandahar City. This also includes improving conditions in Kandahar's main prison through training of corrections' personnel and upgrades to prison infrastructure.

In the months ahead, Canada will be focused on supporting the Government of Afghanistan's recent announcement to increase the number of ANP in secure areas of Afghanistan, including Kandahar.

To increase the impact of Canada's ongoing support to training, we are expanding the Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) training centre. This training centre has been officially accredited by the Ministry of the Interior and will allow Canadian trainers to provide advanced training to the ANP, completing the basic training provided through the U.S.-led FDD program. We expect the expanded training centre will open its doors this fall.

We are also deploying additional Canadian civilian police to Afghanistan. We anticipate a total of 50 civilian officers on the ground by fall 2009. These officers will be placed in strategic mentoring and advisor positions in Kabul and Kandahar, including within the U.S. Combined Security Transition Command, the European Union Police Mission and the United Nations. This will allow Canada to maximize our impact on ANP development and enhance coordination with partner countries and multilateral organizations.

Thank you for your attention. I would now like to turn to Deputy Commissioner Raf Souccar.

[Deputy Commissioner Raf Souccar, Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to be here with you this morning and to speak about Canada's, and particularly the RCMP's, international peace operation program, specifically our efforts in Afghanistan.

Today I have with me Superintendent Paul Young, officer in charge of operations for the RCMP's international peace operations branch. In fact, Paul returned in March 2008 from a one-year deployment in Afghanistan.

I'd like to start by giving you some background on the RCMP's international peace operations branch. The year 2009 marks 20 years of Canadian police contribution to international peace operations, which started with our first deployment in Namibia in 1989. Since then, under the RCMP's leadership more than 2,500 police officers from agencies across Canada have served on missions in 29 countries around the world.

The goal of Canada's International Police Peace Operations Program is to promote international peace and security by increasing social stability at the national level, using police-related expertise in countries experiencing or threatened by conflict and in failed or fragile states.

Through two decades of hard work and perseverance, Canadian police officers have made significant contributions to global stability, earning Canada an international reputation for leadership and professionalism. We are proud of those contributions.

The Canadian police arrangement is the policy framework that guides the Government of Canada’s response to foreign requests for police assistance. The Canadian police arrangement is a partnership between the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, which chairs the arrangement, Public Safety Canada, the Canadian International Development Agency, and the RCMP. As part of its Canadian police arrangement responsibilities, the RCMP manages the deployment of police to international peace operations on behalf of the government.

The Canadian Police Arrangement supports the Government of Canada's commitments to build a more secure world, through Canadian participation in international peace operations, critical to longer term security system reform and conflict prevention efforts.

Today, there are approximately 160 Canadian police serving on 15 missions in a dozen countries, including Afghanistan, Haiti and Sudan.

Our officers may be tasked with a variety of roles in each mission, but essentially they work as trainers and mentors to help build the capacity of indigenous police services.

Training and mentoring foreign police and providing humanitarian assistance around the globe develops our officers’ leadership and problem-solving skills. It also enhances their ability to interact with different cultures here in Canada. That’s certainly a positive outcome for them, for their police service, and for the communities in which they serve.

Crime today knows no boundaries and flourishes in fragile states where there's a lack of respect for the rule of law. By helping police in countries such as Afghanistan fight crime at the source, Canadian police officers help reduce the spread of that crime to our communities.

This is a win-win situation, because ultimately, a safer world means a safer Canada.

Now if I may, I'd like to tell you about our efforts in Afghanistan.

The role of Canadian civilian police is to assist in building the capacity of the Afghan National Police. In recognition of Canada's reputation for leadership in policing, our officers are often assigned to positions of influence in each of the operations. Since their first deployment to the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan in 2003, 60 Canadian police officers have served in Afghanistan.

Over the past six months, we have more than doubled our numbers in theatre, with plans to increase to 50 by the fall. Today, 31 officers from seven police services are assigned to four different operations in Afghanistan. These four operations include the Canadian-led Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team, which you may hear me call KPRT; the American-led Combined Security Transition Command-Afghanistan, or CSTC-Alpha; the European Union Police Mission in Afghanistan, or EUPOL; and finally, the Canadian embassy in Kabul.

Our officers are involved in a variety of initiatives, from basic recruit training to advising senior leaders within the Afghan National Police and the Ministry of Interior on police reform. At the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team, 24 officers are involved in training and mentoring the Afghan National Police as well as working on infrastructure development. Within the Combined Security Transition Team-Afghanistan, two inspectors hold influential positions, heading up program coordination for focused district development, which is the most widespread police training program in the country.

A chief superintendent at the European Union Police Mission is involved in developing policy on Afghan National Police Reform.

Finally, one officer at the embassy of Canada provides advice for the Canadian diplomatic core on police reform issues.

In the near future, a Canadian police commander at the rank of assistant commissioner will be posted to the embassy and will represent Canada on the International Police Coordination Board. This European Union police-led committee coordinates all Afghan National Police training, mentoring, and infrastructure development country-wide. It is critical that Canada has senior leadership within that forum.

Despite the many challenges Afghanistan presents, we have had numerous successes throughout the country. This includes training more than 1,000 Afghan National Police officers as well as teaching them valuable policing and survival skills. What’s more, Canadian police officers have consistently demonstrated their resilience, innovation, and courage in the face of these challenges.

One of our officers recently decided to tackle illiteracy among the Afghan National Police. Some Afghan National Police districts only have three or four police officers who are literate. They are often overburdened with administrative tasks. Our officer worked with Canadian and international partners to develop and implement a literacy program for the Afghan National Police that would bring them up to a grade 4 level over 18 months.

Another police officer designed courses for VIP protection and counter-kidnapping strategies.

Canadian police, in cooperation with U.S. and Canadian forces, were instrumental in helping to upgrade or build police stations and obtain uniforms, equipment, and vehicles. This has enabled the Afghan National Police to create a more permanent presence and create a stronger sense of security for citizens. In fact, Superintendent Paul Young, here with me, mentored the Kabul police chief, providing him hands-on support and guidance in the daily operations and restructuring of a police force serving more than four million people.

Regarding the future, the International Peace Operations Branch recently developed an extensive policing strategy and a deployment plan for Afghanistan, which we are in the process of implementing. Developed in consultation with Canadian police arrangement partners, the strategy supports a whole-of-government approach to assisting Afghanistan with security sector reform.

The overarching goal of the strategy is to ensure that Canadian civilian police, despite being a relatively small presence, are strategically placed in positions of influence to have a more sustained and significant presence. The strategy also outlines a clear command structure to promote better coordination and communication of the multiple Afghan National Police reform projects in which Canadian police are involved. This will enable our contingent to grow from 30 to 50 in short order while continuing to carry out operations effectively and efficiently. Given Afghanistan’s significant issues with cross-border criminal insurgent activities, Canadian police will begin working with the Afghan National Police in developing their border management capacity. The goal is to make the border more secure—for example, helping to disrupt the flow of narcotics in and out of Afghanistan, a country that produces 92% of the world’s opium supply.

In closing, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the conditions under which Canadian officers are working are difficult and the challenges they face are significant. Despite such conditions, however, our members speak with pride of the positive difference they are making.

Local authorities and our international partners are most impressed and very grateful for the significant effort and accomplishments of Canadian police. Our officers not only help the Afghan national police develop critically important policing skills, but they emphasize our values of integrity, honesty and professionalism.

This is helping to build a sustainable Afghan democratic society based on respect for the rule of law and human rights. The Afghan National Police are gaining ground slowly, gaining self-confidence and the respect of their community. This is key to their success. They will need a lot of support, training, and assistance before they will be able to stand on their own, but they have started on that path. It is a long-term project that will take time and patience on our part as well as on the part of the Afghans. Through our involvement over the past six years and into the future, we and the Canadian police community hope to have a lasting positive impact.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I'd like to thank you for inviting us to be here before you. We'll be happy to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you both for the presentations.

We'll open it up for the round of questioning. It's a seven-minute round, and we'll start with the official opposition.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming.

A number of us have been to Afghanistan on more than one occasion, and I can say first-hand that the work our police do there in terms of training has been quite remarkable under very difficult circumstances.

Weak public institutions feed insurgents. We keep talking about capacity building, and in the report of December 2008, which dealt with Canada's engagement in Afghanistan, we set out a number of baselines. We, of course, are changing this mission to focus on training both the Afghan National Police and the Afghan National Army. Back in December, I read about those baselines and our targets. Obviously they are of great concern. We keep talking about illiteracy and corruption and poor pay and all those things we recognize, and they're not getting any better. In the long run, they do not seem to be getting any better. We continually express concern about the fact that the police are the face of government in many of these local communities. They are the face. If people don't trust the police, you can't expect them to trust government officials.

As of August of last year, the percentage of ANP forces in key districts that were capable of planning and executing near-autonomous operations was zero. And yet in less than two years, we hope to have that be 80% of ANP. How are we going to make this quantum leap between zero and 80% with the resources that we have currently when in the last few years we haven't been able to advance that?

That would be my first question, through you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Who would like to respond? Go ahead.

[Yves Brodeur]

I will take the first crack at it, and then perhaps Assistant Commissioner Souccar may want to complement that.

It is a challenge--there's no doubt about it--to really bring this police force to a level of efficiency that would actually work for all of us. That's a really big issue, a big challenge. We're working hard on it. The benchmarks are ambitious. For us they are actually an objective that we really believe in, and we are putting the efforts and the resources in to achieve them.

I can say that actually, although this progress has been perhaps not as fast as we would like it to be, there really has been progress. This progress has been noted not only by us but by NATO, for instance, which I noticed, in its last report on Afghanistan, made a reference to the improvement of the Afghan National Police.

There's still a long way to go. We are putting more trainers in the field. The international community is getting its act together through this International Police Coordination Board. I would say the Minister of Interior, Mr. Atmar, is probably the most welcome change. He is quite determined. Some of you who have been to Afghanistan know him. You know how dedicated he is and how efficient. And we're supporting him with, for instance, a person who actually helps him on the policy front and also helps him in getting the structure right.

One of the first measures that he took when he got into his job was to fire a number of senior police officials for corruption. That's a pretty significant step forward.

The other thing he did, which is also very important, is ask for an augmentation of the seeding of police officers not only for the Kandahar area but for the country as a whole. He also has been extremely supportive in accelerating recruitment and training of the ANP police officers.

These are only a few examples of, I think, a situation that's moving forward in the right direction, but which we still need to work hard on. So we'll keep doing that. But you're right, the challenges are pretty important and pretty serious, and the ambitions are high.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

The police are only one element, though. We have to deal with defence attorneys, prosecutors, administrative people, and of course there's the whole issue of Sarposa Prison. We saw what happened there last June. There's the issue around whether, when they capture people, they have a secure facility.

Can you explain to us very quickly the interrelationship in terms of the development of those other elements that are absolutely essential? It's similar to in Canada: you arrest somebody, but then what happens? Is there faith in the system? How is that progressing?

[Yves Brodeur]

That is also progressing. Again, my personal desire would be to be able to tell you that it's progressing very quickly, but it's hard work.

Let's take it by sequence. Police is one piece of work that's under way. Then people are moved on to prisons. Sarposa is now in many ways a model institution in Afghanistan, certainly in terms of having standards comparable to many other institutions in the developed world. We are training prison guards through Correctional Service Canada. I should underline that Correctional Service Canada is doing a fantastic job.

Some of you travelled there and had a chance to look at the Sarposa Prison after the attack last summer. Canada was fast in coming up with the money to not only repair but also upgrade the facility. Now that we've done that, I think Sarposa is light years away from what it was before Canada started to get involved.

On the judicial side of things, we're just starting. We're providing training to magistrates in Kandahar and trying to help them turn this legal process into something that's smoother and works better, where defence and government attorneys have a chance to do their jobs well. It's something we see working in tandem with the police work.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you see the political will on the ground translating into actual...to satisfy the government itself?

[Yves Brodeur]

Definitely. A big part of what we do—and this is quite important—is help the Afghans themselves take charge of their destiny, so it's capacity building. The work we do on what we call the rule-of-law package includes all the elements you just mentioned. It's taking place in Kandahar, but it's also taking place at a national level. We have people who work out of Kabul together with the Minister of Interior, the Minister of Justice, and other Afghan actors precisely to do that sort of thing, to make sure the connections are there to help support the political will among Afghans. There's a commitment on the part of key ministers. We've heard them. And it hasn't only been words, but action as well. President Karzai as well is committed to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thanks, Mr. Brodeur.

We have to move on to Mr. Bachand, for seven minutes.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm somewhat concerned by police coordination. Of course, I want to support what was said by my colleagues. We've seen a number of reports showing that the Afghan national army was progressing rather well, but that the Afghan national police was not doing as well.

Mr. Brodeur, in your presentation you referred to the International Police Coordination Board. This organization was created in October 2006, but Canada only joined in January 2009. Why such a long delay? It would seem you joined because you believed the 2008 restructuring was positive. I would like additional detail on this point.

I said coordination was a concern to me. There seems to be a great deal of friction between NATO and the European Union. Oftentimes, in Europe, NATO convenes meetings the European Union does not attend, and vice versa. The fact that these two entities are involved in the police file concerns me somewhat. I would like you to tell me whether there is a genuine attempt at coordination or not, and whether it works.

I would also like to know who commands and controls the Canadian police. I know that when it comes to the Canadian forces there is a Canadian commander within NATO. However, there is also a NATO command. At the end of the day, who makes the final decision regarding the police? It is important to know this type of thing.

I would also like you to tell me about the course and curriculum. Who determined the course for the last eight weeks? Are there courses on ethics? I would think it is important to stress these matters.

Of course, the reports we've received point to a high degree of corruption. I'm quite pleased to hear you say, Mr. Brodeur, that you have dismissed Minister Atmar. While we're discussing his case, can you tell me where he is from? I am trying to do some research on this. Was Mr. Atmar appointed by Mr. Karzaï?

[Yves Brodeur]

He's a minister, a member of cabinet.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

We're talking about coordination and the fact that the Minister of the Interior and the international community are cooperating in this regard. Does the Minister of the Interior have the final word in matters of coordination? I've always heard that the idea is to restore true power and response capabilities to the Afghans. In the Canadian Forces, mentors bring these people to battle sites and in many cases, let them take the initiative.

Does the same thing happen with the police?

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you very much.

I don't know how much time I have to answer these questions. In fact, they cover almost everything that we do. For the questions about the curriculum and the decisions concerning the deployment of Canadian police forces, I will turn the floor over to my colleague from the RCMP.

I'll begin by telling you about coordination, given that this is the crux of the matter. Coordination for police preparation currently takes place at many levels. First, there is what is called the JCMB. I apologize for using the English acronym, which means the Joint Coordination and Monitoring Board. This group brings together all countries involved in Afghanistan, and has produced a charter that is used as a framework. This organization is responsible for setting the maximum number of policemen for the country, which is 82,000.

Under this system, there is another organization, the International Police Coordination Board, which you mentioned earlier and which we joined in January. Why in January 2009 rather than 2006? For reasons linked to the effectiveness of the group. Before we joined, this group was just getting started. It would be fair to say that before last year, the international community was perhaps not as coordinated as it should have been with regard to police training.

Key players were missing, including the United States, which provides most of the police training. Without the U.S., we were somewhat reluctant to participate in this initiative. I would also add to this the reasons that you mentioned, including the fact that EUPOL took some time to get off the ground.

Between the time the decision was made—and it was an excellent one—and the time it was implemented, a certain amount of time elapsed. We had work to do in Kandahar and at the national level, so we decided to go ahead, but still using an approach involving close collaboration with the Afghans.

The final decision concerning the number of police officers, recruitment and reforms belongs to the Afghans. It is up to the Minister of the Interior, Mr. Atmar, to make these decisions. Our role is not to make them in his stead, but to assist him, and that is what we are trying to do right now.

We also talked about the relations between the various players. We already mentioned the first two, and I will briefly list the others: the Afghan Minister of the Interior, CSTC-A, an American organization that coordinates training both for the police force and for the armed forces, EUPOL, that is the European police force, and NATO. NATO adopted a policy concerning police training at its most recent summit.

All of these people work together within this police coordination group of which we are now a member. This should help us achieve better coherence, not as concerns the objectives—because we already know where we want to go—but rather as concerns how to get there.

This is a slightly more difficult question. For example, Canada is involved at the PRT level. We use an approach by district rather than by province, whereas other countries proceed differently. We are trying to make a more coherent whole out of all of this.

You mentioned cooperation between NATO and the European Union. I will now put on my hat as the former NATO spokesperson to explain to you that this question is always somewhat complicated.

However, the Europeans decided to create a group of gendarmes, police officers, and send them to Afghanistan. Some 400 of these gendarmes will be assisting the Afghan police. By deploying them, the Europeans have clearly and firmly showed their intention of providing assistance quickly, whether as part of NATO or under the EU banner. In my opinion, we've already passed this stage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I'm sorry, we're out of time for this slot. We'll have to come back to that.

We're going to move to Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you to the panel for being here today.

This is obviously a very important part of what Canada is involved with in Afghanistan. I just can't help but think about a country, a society that has been in a state like Afghanistan has been, and how important it is to move forward. We sometimes measure Afghanistan against democracies that have been going through this struggle for a couple of hundred years, so starting from ground zero seems to me to be a pretty daunting task. I certainly want to salute those people who take on that challenge.

I'm encouraged by the comprehensive approach that's being taken in this whole building of the police community and a civil society in Afghanistan. From the RCMP's perspective, my understanding is that there are perhaps some new training centres either being built or that have been built. I wonder what that means to the Afghan recruits in the police community and how it is affecting the training and the ongoing development of those agencies.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

A training centre is in the process of being completed at Camp Nathan Smith by the provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar, which will go a long way to doing a number of things. It will provide us with the opportunity.... One of the challenges we have in Afghanistan is the situation of security and being able to get outside the wire, if you will, to provide the training and to return. Having our trainees on site will go a long way to allowing us to provide them with the training.

It becomes very important, because one of the first questions that were asked was with respect to the progress we're making in training and in being able to provide a semi-autonomous capability that has the components to plan an operation, staff an operation, and be able to carry out an operation. This is essentially one of the later goals. You provide the basic training and the basic skills, which then allow an individual, a commander, to identify and select staff--the right people in the right job--to be able to carry out an operation. So you plan an operation, you find the right people to staff it--and they have to have the basic skills--and then you carry out the operation.

This comes with a lot of challenges, because we are trying to professionalize a police force where, in a great number of instances, its members cannot read or write a report, so literacy becomes very important. Yves mentioned earlier the challenges with literacy, and I mentioned in my opening comments our efforts to get us there.

Ethics become very important. Integrity becomes very important. All these things are part of the training provided to the Afghan National Police, along with the basic combat first aid, survival methods, being able to search and seize, and being able to identify IEDs. All these components become very important because they are the pieces of the puzzle that together allow a commander to be able to plan, staff, and carry out an operation.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I appreciate that. I understand fully what you're talking about, the professionalism and the ethics. I think there's another component there, which is pride. And when we build all those other things in.....

I notice, Superintendent Young, that you were in Afghanistan for a year. On the ground, how did you see those three components? Did they change in that period of time, and are we seeing a progressive change within the Afghan army to bring that civil policing component to Afghanistan?

[Superintendent Paul Young, Superintendent, Program Manager, International Peace Operations Branch (Asia), Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Within the Afghan National Police, such as with any police force, job satisfaction comes from pride in the job you're doing. Many of the efforts of the international community and the MOI have been directed towards that, to make the Afghan national policeman want to be an Afghan national policeman, and then on to recruiting, to make other people within the country want to take up this profession.

That has been addressed in many ways. The training centres you mentioned in your first question are one of them. Many of the Afghan National Police over the last six to eight years were merely given a uniform and a gun and put at a checkpoint. Trainers could not get to many of the areas that were less permissive, so they could not offer training. But by building the training centres, they were able to bring police into a central location—and these are generally not too far from home. Kandahar is not the only training centre; there are many in most of the provinces.

When the police come to the training centres, the foundation or establishment of pride is one of the first things that are developed. They're set up as a group working together as a team. They're given clean, new uniforms, which instills pride. They're given an insignia that's now their own. It's the pride in being a national police force that's being taught. Along those lines, they are also given the skills to be able to go back to their communities to show they have developed the abilities to interact with their community and to address the problems there. So they are given the foundation for community-based policing. And of course, all of this is intermixed with the survival skills required in less permissive areas.

Giving them the proper training in the proper areas, the proper equipment, and the confidence to go back to their communities to do the job is how national pride is being developed there.

Is it progressing? Absolutely. Even in the year I spent in Kabul province, where the police were very haphazard in the beginning, the sense of pride that rolled out of such training programs was clearly visible by the end.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Brodeur.

[Yves Brodeur]

Very, very briefly, since we're on training and the training centre, there are two things I want to flag. One is that the training centre at the PRT in Kandahar has now been certified by the Afghan Minister of Interior. It's important—and this is also a bit of an answer to the question by Monsieur Bachand—because it speaks to standardization throughout the country. So what you basically have now are training centres that are offering the same courses throughout the country, and the people who come out of them are actually comparable in terms of training and certification across districts. That's one thing.

Mr. Bachand, you asked me a question about the curriculum. To give you an overview of the courses offered, I will list some of them. There is training on the identification of IEDs, how to track down and search suspects, how to search vehicles and buildings, control point verification, first aid and investigation methods on bombing sites. I learned about this during my most recent visit to Kandahar. To an extent, this curriculum is comparable to what could be offered to police officers here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and I want to thank our witnesses today for appearing before the committee.

I want to start off with a question to both Mr. Brodeur and Mr. Souccar. Have you read the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission's report on the causes of torture by law enforcement agencies?