Afghanistan Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Yves Brodeur]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You have.

And you, sir?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm aware of it. I have not read the full report, no.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Brodeur, to you, I guess it's pretty grave. To put this in context, Canada is the biggest donor to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. In other words, we were the biggest donor of this report. The findings were the following: that torture and cruel and inhumane and belittling behaviour is widespread in the majority of law enforcement agencies. In fact, every single region, every single investigation of police methods, indicated that 98.5% of subjects in the study had been victims of torture. This isn't my contention, this is in the report.

I probed further into it. Some of the tools that were used: punches, kicks, slaps, weapons used to threaten; wooden sticks used to lash at hands or tied feet, often during interrogation; cable used to beat blindfolded victims; electric, metal, or plastic cables used for beating on the back, feet, head, face, and other parts of the body; electric shocks passing electricity currents through the victim's body, inflicting electric shocks through fingernails, fingers, and toes; handcuffs and chains used. I could go on. I don't want to.

This is a report by the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission that we funded. These are important facts for us to know. I've heard about techniques on investigation, fine; I've heard about first aid, fine. What I'm not hearing is the training--that is not happening, or maybe it is, but it's not effective enough--the police understanding that torture should not ever be used when they're doing their job.

So I guess my question is, where is the training on human rights for police officers?

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you for the question. It's a very important issue, and one that I think is extremely serious.

One thing I'd like to say at the outset is that Canada does not tolerate torture in any way. We actually are acting within international laws and we do provide training to police, and also to the Afghan National Army, to make sure that mistreatment of detainees is not happening.

That being said, I think the point you make speaks to the urgent need to professionalize the police force as well as the ANA. That's what we're doing right now.

In terms of the region in which we work in Kandahar, we have at this stage no evidence that this has happened. I'm not denying; I'm only saying that is the case at this stage, right now. The list of courses that I've named or that I identified--I didn't give you the full list--takes in values, how to handle prisoners, the need to respect detainees and to actually make sure their rights are not violated. That is a priority for us. We're working very hard with the different national security forces, and that includes, as I said, the army, but also the police and the NDS as well, to make sure these different institutions or bodies are actually lifting their standards.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Fair enough. I appreciate that this is no small task, and I appreciate the history of the country and the fact that some say it's starting from zero.

When we talk about the rule of law, we know the laws in Afghanistan and, certainly, the understanding of the laws in Afghanistan are lacking. I would suggest to you--not to the police, because they simply have to enforce the law--that when we have Canada working with a president at this point who either was unaware of a law that would protect rape in a marriage, in other words, a law that was going forward that is far beyond, by the way, condoning rape in a marriage, who either didn't know about it, as we heard recently, or said “Oh, don't worry, I'm going to fix it”, it's not in fact....

The question we're dealing with right now, in other words, Mr. Brodeur, is how can we work with a government that either doesn't seem to care about human rights or is passing laws that abuse human rights? How do we solve that political equation, and how can we work with a government that is either turning a blind eye to the human rights of its own citizens, to its police, or passing laws that will basically cement impunity among its citizens? I think that's a bigger question. But I'd like your take on how we can work with this government if it's not recognizing the human rights of its citizens.

[Yves Brodeur]

I think that not working with the government is not the answer. Abandoning the work that we're doing to try to raise the standards would be a grave mistake--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But you understand what I'm saying; the laws being passed are actually not--

[Yves Brodeur]

If you would let me answer the question, please....

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I will, but I just want to be clear: of course we have to work with them; I'm talking about the results of our work.

[Yves Brodeur]

Can I answer the question?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You only have one minute, sir.

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you very much.

Essentially, we have to work with them, and we are working with the Afghan authorities.

The law you're talking about is the Shi’a Personal Status Law, which is an outrageous law, and that's been recognized by the President. It perhaps took some time before he made that recognition, but he did. We're confident that the Afghans will do what they have to do to change and modify, amend, repeal the segments of that law that are unacceptable.

We have a very capable person working within the justice ministry to help draft law. That's one thing. As well, to actually make sure that Afghan authorities are sensitized to the issues of gender and human rights when they draft laws, we have someone who works in the interior ministry, with Minister Atmar, to do the same thing. So there is work being done. We keep talking to the President, at the highest level, to make sure they do understand the importance of these issues and they take action.

I want to say as well that Canada was among the first countries to react, at a very high level, to the law you're talking about. I was with Minister Cannon when he spoke directly with Mr. Atmar and Mr. Spanta to tell them that this was totally unacceptable.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

When was that?

[Yves Brodeur]

I was in the Hague, so the date was March 31, I think, when it came out publicly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I'm sorry, sir, we have to move on. Thank you for that response.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I want to remind members that we are dealing with the training of the Afghan National Police today.

We'll start the second round with Mr. Hawn, for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for coming.

Following on from that, Mr. Brodeur, the challenges are obviously many and significant. We don't see progress with them as quickly as any of us would like, obviously. Is that a reason to leave or is that in fact a reason to stay?

[Yves Brodeur]

I'm sorry, I missed the last part of your question.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Are the challenges we're facing and the lack of the progress we would like to see a reason to leave or in fact a reason to stay?

[Yves Brodeur]

I can only give you a personal answer, I guess: it's a reason for us to work harder and to maintain the effort that we've invested in the country.

It is showing progress. I would actually argue that if you look at Afghanistan today, at Kandahar, and compare it to where it was, say, two years ago, you'll see a big difference.

Again, to quote from a survey that was conducted by the Asia Foundation--you can find it on the Internet as well as within a NATO report--Afghans actually, by the vast majority of 96%, do not want a return to the previous days under the Taliban regime. More than 80% are actually satisfied with the current government, no matter how imperfect it is.

So I think we are making progress, but it's slow.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

It's a reason to stay; I agree.

To Superintendent Young or Deputy Commissioner Souccar, a number of countries are working at training the ANP and a number are not. Based on your professional police experience and your experience internationally, which countries do you think, among those who aren't helping already, would be best suited to help?

[Supt Paul Young]

That's a very difficult question to answer.

The key players that we deal with internationally from other countries are in Afghanistan. The countries that we are familiar with that teach standard policing practices and principles and ethics like we teach here in Canada are present and are doing an admirable job there in a coordinated effort.

Who should be there? I guess it depends on what's required at any given time and what expertise can be delivered. For instance, the British are there working on counter-narcotics, and we have different police from different countries providing different expertise. It comes down to what the Afghan National Police require at any point in time, what their requests to the international community are, and who best in the world can deliver that type of training.