Afghanistan Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So we probably have the right folks there. Obviously, we'd like more of them where we can get them.

[Supt Paul Young]

That's correct. I believe we have the right folks there, and I believe they're all working in conjunction now, more than ever in the past.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

The work there is challenging, and as Yves mentioned, it's a reason to stay. It's a reason to not only work harder but work smarter. And I think we're doing that.

It's also important to note that the training provided is simply one component. The individual courses provided for combat first aid, search and seizure, vehicle searches, and so on, are to develop expertise. But what also follows is coaching and mentoring. That goes a long way toward ensuring that the ethics, integrity, professionalism, and rule of law are respected, and that's taught on a day-to-day basis. So when Paul spent a year with the Kabul police chief, a big part of his function on a day-to-day basis was to say, “This is right. It is wrong if you do this.”

I just got back from Afghanistan a few weeks ago, and I found that the police commanders and individuals who receive this training, coaching, and mentoring are very proud of their mentors. I was walking with a commander in charge of the training academy in Kabul, through their grounds. His mentor walked by, said hello to him, and continued walking. I didn't know who that person was, and he very proudly pointed to him and said, “That's my mentor.” So they're very proud of these individuals. They listen very carefully to them and take that as a means of moving themselves forward.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Following on that, leadership is key in any police force, paramilitary force, or business. If you can instill the right ethics, accountability, and so on, in the leadership and they apply it, that will filter down eventually to the troops.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Mr. Hawn. We're right on schedule.

Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

The Manley report said we need to contribute to a better governed, stable, and developing Afghanistan in order to have a government that can protect the security and interests of the people. We're paying the salaries of the entire Afghan police force in Kandahar. That will not strengthen the institution responsible for law and order. If we're going to have measures like that in the long term, they don't seem to be fiscally sustainable. Secondly, isn't it damaging to the Afghan government in the long term? If we continue to move in an area where we're providing non-strategic investment, how does that help the Afghan government?

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you.

I think the payment of salaries of police officers in the six districts we're engaged in must be seen in the context of measures taken to try to attract recruits of quality, but also to deal with corruption to some extent. We have an issue with retention, because if you look at the salaries ANA members are paid compared to police officers, there's a pretty wide gap. So if you're a qualified person you basically go for the best offer, and the best offer is on the ANA side. So we're trying to bridge that gap with the LOFTA fund. I think it's fair to say it's not meant to be a permanent solution; it's to help the Afghans bridge that gap.

We're counting on improvements in the economic situation in Afghanistan to make it sustainable over time. We're not the only contributor to that fund, incidentally. We are one of the largest contributors, but there are other countries as well.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

How do we get to that point?

[Yves Brodeur]

We get to that point by creating the right conditions in Afghanistan so the government can actually earn enough funds to pay its police officers decently so they can make a living and resist the temptation of corruption. Is it going to happen next week? No. Is it going to happen next year? Maybe. But basically it's helping right now.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

As the assistant deputy minister for the Afghan task force, tell me what I'm going to tell you is wrong.

[Yves Brodeur]

I wouldn't dare do that.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

The Canadian embassy in Kabul is going to spend $33 million on a makeover and operations, and that represents 58% of DFAIT's $57.2 million additional Afghan-related funding. We're talking about strategic investments. We're talking about putting the right tools in the hands of the Afghans.

Why are we spending $33 million on a makeover of the embassy when it could be better used to help these gentlemen and others in terms of the training, weaponry, etc., on the ground?

[Yves Brodeur]

I think one doesn't prevent the other from happening. But “makeover” is the wrong terminology, I would say. The money we've been investing in Kabul has been invested to protect the Canadians who are working there. We have now more than 100 civilians in Afghanistan. Many of them, over 50, are working in Kabul. The situation in Kabul, as you probably know, is not an easy one. We have a responsibility--I have a responsibility--to make sure these people are well protected and have living conditions that will allow them to do the very important job they're doing.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Nobody would argue with that. But it's the fifth poorest country in the world, and the answer that I got from DFAIT was that real estate values are very expensive in Kabul. I'm not quite sure how that works.

Nobody's questioning protection. The issue is that we're spending $33 million on a makeover, yet we're looking at trying to get the right resources for helping the police and the army there. I don't know that you can do both when you're asking that 57% of the increase in DFAIT's budget go simply to an embassy. Certainly, as a taxpayer I find that very difficult to swallow.

[Yves Brodeur]

Well, I'm not too sure exactly where you're going, but let me just say that if you actually don't create the conditions for our experts--colleagues from the RCMP, from CSC, from DFAIT, from CIDA, from GSO--to actually be able to do their job, the bigger part of your investment will be at risk. It is not a cheap mission.

But again, I don't want to call it a makeover. Certainly in my mind, that gives the wrong signal. We are actually creating conditions so that people can do their job, actually do what you just pointed out, in perfect safety.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You're not questioning the cost, the $33 million? I'll take that as a yes.

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I'm sorry, we're out of time. We have to move on. Maybe you can get back to it.

He indicated earlier to you, Mr. Wilfert, that he would be hesitant to answer yes or no.

Mr. Kerr, five minutes.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I know Mr. MacKenzie has another question. I wanted to ask a bit about literacy.

Any time we find ourselves engaged in any world event, communication becomes absolutely critical to both our understanding, including the exchanges we sometimes hear here, and more importantly, the understanding of those you're training and those who have to carry out the job. Where are we in terms of literacy improvement? I know you touched on it, but where are we, and where do we have to get to to make sure the job is finished, to make sure the Afghans are at the level where they can carry on?

I'm directing that question generally.

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you for the question.

The literacy issue is important for us with the police forces. I think, again, we're dealing with a fairly difficult situation where very few of the police recruits were literate. At an initiative of the RCMP, a program was put together to provide Afghan National Police with what I would call basic Pashto literacy skills, Pashto being their language. It's being rolled out in some of the districts around Kandahar where we're active, and we completed a pilot project in January. I'm told it involves delivering two hours of training four to five times a week to a number of police officers. We hope that we'll have around 300 trained in the Kandahar province in a very short while. Again, it's to give them the tools that they need to do their day-to-day jobs, to be able to interact, to write reports, and read.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

If I could add to this, literacy becomes very important in the professionalization, if you will, of a police force, of a law enforcement agency. Reading and writing reports is something I mentioned, but also, for example, they're provided with inventory, they're provided with equipment, they're provided with the wherewithal to be able to do their jobs. In order for them to be able to account for all the inventory they're provided with, literacy becomes important to be able to keep tabs on what is provided. That also goes a long way to preventing corruption, if you will, because they go hand in glove--the accountability, the literacy to be able to account for whatever it is that they've received to ensure that no one at the other end is misusing the inventory that's provided to them.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[Yves Brodeur]

I'll just add one thing. I should point out that the Afghan Ministry of Education is working in tandem with us to provide that course. It's interesting because here you see a connection between one very important aspect at work, which is policing, and another one, which is education. We're helping the education department to build capacity to deliver this kind of training throughout the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

There's a couple of minutes left.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We talked about recruiting in the Afghan police community. I recognize that it isn't only the RCMP who have people there. There are other police agencies in Canada. I wonder if you could explain how we're able to recruit other police agencies and even the members within the RCMP to go to such a difficult theatre. And what training is provided to them in Canada before they go over?