The House is on summer break, scheduled to return Sept. 15

Evidence of meeting #24 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Anil Arora  Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources
David Boerner  Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources
Robert Schafer  Director, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada, As an Individual

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order.

This is the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan, meeting number 24.

We have two main items on our agenda, the report from the Department of Natural Resources, and then we will be video conferencing with an individual in Vancouver.

As chair of the committee, I want to put forward a proposal to you. I have a motion that I would like to deal with right at the beginning; I'm sure it will only take a few minutes to get that taken care of. Then I'd like to divide the meeting into two 45-minute portions, rather than go one hour, and then 30 minutes. The reason I'd like to do that is because the second part of the meeting will be cut short, at 5:15, because I understand we have votes. So to allocate that time, I'm going to take 45 minutes for each of the presenters. Then we have a 15-minute segment at 5 o'clock for future business of the committee, where we will go in camera.

Is that okay with everybody?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay.

Monsieur Bachand, would you like to present the motion, please?

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to thank the steering committee for letting me introduce the motion now before you.

The motion deals with the stoning of young men and young women in Afghanistan. The Standing Committee on the Status of Women has passed this motion unanimously, and the members of that committee have asked me to present it to the bodies discussing the situation in Afghanistan. I am therefore presenting it to this committee and I will also be presenting it to the Afghanistan follow-up committee.

The motion asks the government to take the necessary action to put an end to stonings in Afghanistan, for any number of reasons. Just recently, on YouTube, we could watch two young people being stoned because they wanted to get married and their families were opposed. The families decided to stone them to death. It is a most barbaric practice.

I know that this a symbolic gesture, but I discussed it with the steering committee this morning and everyone was in favour. On behalf of those young men and young women, therefore, I ask you to pass this motion, one that will be submitted to the House by other committees, including status of women.

Thank you in advance for your trust in me. I ask you to lend your support to this motion.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Is there any discussion?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you.

We will now move to a presentation from the Department of Natural Resources.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Anil Arora, the assistant deputy minister, minerals and metals sector, with the Department of Natural Resources; Ms. Ginny Flood, the director general, minerals, metals and materials policy branch; and Mr. David Boerner, the director general, central and northern Canada branch, Geological Survey of Canada.

We welcome you to our committee. We look forward to a brief presentation, if you have one, and then we'll open it up for questions and comments.

I'm sorry that we have less than 45 minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

Anil Arora Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Mr. Chair, we are pleased to be invited here to provide a brief overview of Canadian expertise in mining, particularly in remote areas.

It is really a pleasure to be here with you.

I believe you got a copy of our introductory remarks. I won't go through every line here, to try to give the maximum amount of time for some dialogue, but I would like to highlight a few of the points from this set of opening remarks.

Under the Canadian Constitution, the federal government has broad responsibilities for federal lands, fiscal and monetary policy, international relations and trade, national statistics, and science and technology.

In the north, the federal government manages mineral resources in the Northwest Territories, in Nunavut, and, in the case of the Yukon, this responsibility is in the process of being devolved to the territory itself.

I think it's important to make one point, and this is that in terms of resources, it really is the provinces, the provincial governments, that own and manage the mineral resources within their own jurisdictions, and they're responsible for land use and decision-making.

The other point I'd like to stress right up front is that our department doesn't set the priorities internationally, nor do we develop international policy and undertake that particular responsibility. Certainly, we'll talk about the Canadian context, what we do, and in terms of what might be applicable to the case of Afghanistan, but I just wanted to put the markers there that it really isn't our position to talk about where our priorities and our policies should be in the international arena.

In terms of the provincial and federal jurisdictions, there a number of shared areas as well, and those are on economic development, environmental protection and conservation, health and safety, and aboriginal economic development and consultation. We work in concert with many other federal government departments on this particular file: for example, with Fisheries and Oceans when it comes to impact on fish habitat; with INAC, or Indian and Northern Affairs, on mining regulations in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut and on aboriginal consultation; with Transport Canada; with HRSDC on skills; with Statistics Canada on some of the statistics; with Industry Canada on some of the mining company directory, to help connect supply of goods and suppliers and services; and of course with our colleagues at DFAIT.

So at NRCan our mandate is to collect and publish statistics on the mineral exploration, development, and production of the mining and metallurgical industries in Canada. We make full and scientific examination and survey of our geological structure and mineralogy of Canada. We have regard to the sustainable development of Canada's mineral resources and their integrated management. And we seek to enhance the responsible development and use of Canada's mineral resources.

On the geoscience front, we certainly provide geoscience as a public good to all Canadians and to other foreign companies in a very open and transparent way so that we can make sure there's maximum benefit and advantage to Canadians as a result of the exploration and the mining and production. We can certainly talk more about that.

In terms of methodology, we certainly are involved with all the various cycles of the mining process, beginning right from the land acquisitions to exploration to advanced exploration, pre-feasibility, feasibility studies, the development of the actual mining projects, the operations of them, the closure, and even rights to the land ownership that's renounced.

Canada is an expert in the area of mining, and we certainly know within our own remote context some of the unique issues. We certainly talk a little bit about the challenges of infrastructure, challenges with environment, challenges with labour, and challenges with some of the social aspects of mining in remote communities and in areas. In Canada, we have a system of a free market, or a free entry system, whereby anybody can come in and stake a claim to a particular geographical area. In other countries, they have auctions, where the governments get involved with assessing what is the value of a particular plot of land and then looking at how do they get the highest bid. That's just another nuance within Canada's context.

We also have, obviously, technical mining expertise, but we rely very heavily on our private industry and our experts within industry to really provide that mining expertise. Certainly some of our laboratories provide some of the technical expertise in the areas of green mining, for example, where we want to make sure that mining is done in the most responsible way: leaving behind the least footprint, making use of the least amount of energy, having the least amount of impact on water, for example, and so on.

I'll stop there. I would be pleased, with my colleagues, to try to answer as best we can the questions you have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, Mr. Arora.

We'll go over to the official opposition.

Mr. Wilfert, please.

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for coming.

I have one significant question, in terms of why anybody would want to invest in Afghanistan. I'm familiar with Mongolia, and in Mongolia the issue right now is the need for a foreign investment protection act, which the Mongolian government has been somewhat reluctant to bring forth to Parliament, given the fact that in the early 1990s it felt it had been taken advantage of as a new democracy, in terms of royalties and taxes.

If you do not have a FIPA agreement or something of that nature in Afghanistan, if you do not have a steady regime that clearly will be able to deal with royalty issues, infrastructure costs, and taxes, and given the fact that the former minister of mines met with Canadian officials in 2008 and was then sacked in 2009 for a $30 million bribe because of a Chinese copper interest—which he denied, but of course then President Karzai sacked him—I'm not quite sure why mining companies would go to Afghanistan. Not to, of course, add to the fact that they're in a war zone.

The question I have, through you, Mr. Chairman, is this. What kind of advice or assistance do you provide to Canadian companies—companies like Kilo, which is looking at doing a major development there—in terms of protection?

Clearly, any investor wants to make sure its assets are protected. In Mongolia, as you probably know, Canadian companies are the second largest investor and yet we're still dancing with the Mongolian government as to protection for Canadian companies, as well as for others, of course.

3:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Anil Arora

You certainly raise a number of challenges that Canadian companies face in mining in a global context.

If you look at the Fraser Institute, for example, it does a survey annually on jurisdictions outside and which ones are friendly, if you like, in terms of investment for various countries, various industries, and various organizations. Obviously you've alluded to some of the prerequisites of good governance and making sure an environment has the regulatory and the policy levers that allow for industry to take part in a particular setting.

I know that even in the case of Afghanistan a few years back, there was a call that was put out for mining a particular deposit—I believe it was the Aynak deposit—and the Chinese ultimately won the bid. Certainly, we had a company out of Canada that did bid as well on that particular possibility.

It is ultimately the decision of the private sector and companies whether those conditions that exist in a foreign context are something they can handle and something they are willing and prepared to take into their equation before they submit a bid or in fact develop a particular project.

You pointed out all of those kinds of issues that the Fraser Institute also points out as some of those conditions and inhibiting factors that might be out there for any jurisdiction, any industry, or any specific company to consider before it decides on a particular project.

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chairman, I'll turn it over to Mr. Dion.

I just wanted to point out that in the case of Mongolia, Canadian companies there are pressing the Canadian government, and obviously our embassy, very strongly for intervention, given the fact that, yes, they've been there, but the rules are changing. My concern is that as an investor, yes, you can pick the place, but if you go there and the rules are changing, what's the point if you're going to get nailed particularly on the issues of taxes and royalties?

May I turn it to Mr. Dion?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

You have approximately three minutes left. I didn't get the timer started, but we'll give you about three minutes.

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Arora, I would first like to congratulate you for having made sure we see your title of Champion of Official Languages. It is clearly something that is close to your heart, so I am going to ask my questions in French.

Do you have a strategy by which the Canadian mining sector can take advantage of the situation in Afghanistan in a way that will benefit Afghans and Canada alike? If so, what is it?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Anil Arora

Thank you very much. It is a real pleasure to represent my department in my role of champion of official languages.

Actually, the strategy we have around the world is to work with multilateral organizations, meaning our partners in the United Nations, especially, for example, the committee that deals with sustainable development. There are also other bodies like the ICMM, which deals with responsible resource development.

We are very active participants in an intergovernmental forum. After our presentation, I think you are going to meet with representatives from PDAC and the Mining Association of Canada. We work with multilateral groups to promote best practices around the world in various aspects. Different countries have different situations, various challenges and a number of levels of governance.

So we have a transparent system that allows us to work multilaterally; other countries can benefit from the discussions we hold in those forums. That is our strategy.

It is really beneficial for us in Canada, specifically because of the agreements we have with other institutions. That allows us to develop our relationships with some countries. But, as I said earlier, it is not our responsibility to determine foreign policy, nor to decide on priorities. That is not what our department does.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Bachand.

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We were talking about this earlier, but, in 2008, the Afghan mining minister came to Ottawa. Do you know what he talked about in his capacity as spokesman on natural resources? Did you attend that meeting and can you tell us in broad terms what the issues were?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Anil Arora

I was not there personally, because I have only been with the Department of Natural Resources for about 11 months. But I am aware of the meetings that took place in 2008, and, of course, of the subsequent discussions with people in Afghanistan. I think there were requests in areas like technology, and so on.

We are working with our colleagues and we have also met with the ambassador to determine how we can encourage Afghanistan to become a member of the institutions and thereby to benefit from everyone's expertise.

So I am aware. I was not there myself, but we are continuing the dialogue on those matters.

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Arora, can you say that you know what lies under Afghan soil? Have you been to the country? Have you done any studies there? No?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Anil Arora

No. We have not visited Afghanistan or conducted any studies there. That is not in our mandate. It is something that still has to be decided.

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

But the United States Geological Survey and the Afghanistan Geological Survey have done some estimates. Are you aware of those studies? Do you consider the estimates to be reasonably accurate?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Anil Arora

Perhaps I can ask my colleague David Boerner to answer your question.

Dr. David Boerner Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

We are aware of the studies done by the United States Geological Survey. It is a world-class organization and I believe that the work was done well. The results are based on solid, concrete data. The significance of the metal deposits in the soil is something that has still to be determined. It is very difficult to determine the exact size and concentration of the deposits. Statistical work must still be done in order to get an approximate idea of the amount of metals. So that does not come from actual direct observation of what is there.

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

You say that, from a scientific point of view, the study was done well. Do you think the estimates are reasonably accurate?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. David Boerner

“Accurate” is not the word I would use. It is not possible to say that the estimates are accurate. It is an approximation. We make comparisons with other kinds of deposits. We compare and then we estimate.

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

So really it is an estimate of estimates.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. David Boerner

It is based on the facts, but it is not exact.