Agriculture Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. MacCallum. Your time has expired.

[Doug MacCallum]

My time has expired?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

But you can add more in the question round.

With that, Mr. Steckle, you're kicking it off. Five minutes, please.

[Doug MacCallum]

I had one more comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're into questions. Maybe you can work it into some of the questions.

[Paul Steckle, Liberal, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I know the time is short. We have just a little over half an hour to go. I don't really know where to begin, because what I want to say I've said so many times in the last four, five, six days.

But do people really understand, when money is delivered, how much of that program money has been delivered? We had a program last year...and the government committed to spending more money in agriculture than any government had ever spent. Do we know if that money has been spent? We now have another $1 billion committed--$400 million and $600 million. Is that money going to be delivered?

Would it not be fair to ask government, any government, to give us an audit before a new budget is presented, saying this is the outstanding money that's still attributable to farmers for the 2003-04 crop year on their CAIS programs, or what's outstanding on the BSE, the recall of moneys now? I understand a lot of people are being asked to repay money they had taken earlier. This is not the way any other industry that I understand operates.

I'm a farmer also, in Ontario. We experience the same problem. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Canada will not take the position that it's important to feed its people. Until we come to an understanding that feeding our people...but we've had so much food. I said this to a certain farmer, and he said, “We have food security.” Only because we have it, he believes we will always have it. But it may not always be that way. If the ADMs of this world and the Cargills of this world, the big players, the Loblaws, the Sobeys.... They're controlling things. We don't have competition out there.

So basically we're now talking about treasuries and the Canadian treasury being smaller than the American. But we're operating from a budget that is balanced. The Americans are operating from a deficit side of the ledger. I think we'd better start getting serious about looking after those people who are feeding our nation. And if we do that, then I think we will find the programs. I can't get into all the programs, but I think we need that commitment. We have to believe in that. If we don't believe in that, we will never realize programs, because they're going to be ad hoc from here until the second coming. That's just the way it's going to be, and by that time there won't be farmers left.

Now, you can comment on that if you wish. I've said a lot of things, but I do believe in food security. I do believe that one government should deliver that program. There's one farm plan in the U.S., not 50 farm plans, and I think the sooner we come to that realization.... Let's start thinking outside of the box, because if it's not working, as Dr. Phil would say, then do something about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. MacFarlane had his hand up first.

[Ranald MacFarlane]

Yes, I'm speaking as a dairy farmer, Paul, and I don't want welfare. I think it's unjustified. As a hog producer, as a beef producer, I don't want to know I'm getting safety net money or I've got off-farm income money to subsidize my operation when Maple Leaf and Loblaws are making corporate profits.

Is it really about subsidizing farmers, or is it about subsidizing the whole corporate system? The farmers have been sold down the river here.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. MacCallum, very quickly.

[Doug MacCallum]

In 2004, on December 2, 151 cow-calf farmers on Prince Edward Island received $530,148, and every cent of that had to be repaid. The CAIS program stabbed the cow-calf operators in the back.

I think we need immediate debt relief for the Prince Edward Island farmers, an immediate cash-out for Prince Edward Island farmers; supply management has to be protected at all costs; agriculture should be taken out of the world trade talks; and there has to be a law passed in Canada stating that food processors cannot be food producers.

Also, I'd like to see work started on building a biodiesel plant here on the island to squeeze the oil out of soybeans, or whatever kind of beans there are, and to take fat from the hog plant and beef plant and use it to burn SRM, specified risk material, so they can generate electricity, or whatever they want to do with it.

Also, because of the way the CAIS program is so frigged up, I want it scrapped.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. MacCallum.

Mr. de Boer.

[Willem de Boer]

We talk about a lot of money from the federal government, and the provincial government is kicking in once in a while. We appreciate that. But one thing--and I know a zero is nothing--is that most of the time they forget a zero behind most of the numbers: $1 billion should be $10 billion.

After hitting a mid-life crisis, I left a government job in Holland and started hog farming 12 years ago. I started with about a $500,000 debt and now have a $750,000 to $800,000 debt. I'm still farming because some people have certain trust in me, but it's not all in my control.

But I mean, we need money, as he said. Some debt has to be forgiven, otherwise we cannot keep going. From $500,000 to $800,000 in debt in 12 years' time doesn't make sense. That's not how we farm. I'm still farming, but for how long I don't know.

That debt does not make sense. We need forgiveness from a lot of loans. FCC is a federal operation; let them kick in and forgive 50% or 100% of our debt. Third world countries have debts like that, and they should forgive the debts of third world countries, so they can start from scratch and go from there.

We need forgiveness of loans. We cannot keep going like this; it's too much. It's hanging above all of our heads. No one is excluded; it's everybody.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. de Boer.

Mr. Bellavance, you have five minutes.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentations.

Mr. Ling, you are not the first one to say that we had enough studies and that it is time to get the job done. Many people share this view, particularly in Quebec. Ms. Fyfe referred to the consultations done by the Senate Committee. The federal government is also doing a round of hearings on APF 2, and the former government had done a consultation round on APF 1. The Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food is travelling in Quebec and the Commission sur l’avenir de l’agriculture et de l’agroalimentaire québécois is having its own study.

I think that consultations are very important. Our party itself is involved in consultations. I participated in various consultations on land use, and also travelled throughout Quebec to study the future of agriculture. Consultations are very important, but you are right to point out that they must be followed by action. I think we must do both. Presently, there are many questions about the future. Before you, some young farm producers underlined how important it was to have a vision. As a grain producer, what is your vision? You said as a quip that you had no idea what the situation will be 19 years from now. Based on your experience and the input of members of your organization, how do you foresee the future of agriculture, and more importantly, what shape should this future take?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Ling.

[Allan Ling]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, I do agree that we have to participate in this type of forum. I have participated in these a lot of times over my history in farming. When we did the consulting for the APF 1, the first round, I didn't feel the people who did that process got the right message back. That's why I referred to a feeling among farm producers that there's a bit of an understanding among the bureaucrats and the policy-makers. I'm not trying to take anything away from anybody when I say that, but it is very tough for a person who's not a producer, who's not dealing with the pressures of everyday....

I'll give you a little example. Yesterday I turned on my computer and said, well, I should go in to the bank and look to see what my status is. Gee, I'm overdrawn! Here we are, at this time of year, and we're two months away from getting our spring cash advance, which I had told my banker last February should do us. It should do us. So I had to call him today and say, you've got to get me some more money to get me through this until that advance comes.

I don't want to sound like a pessimist all the time. I'm an optimist, or I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I love farming—but I do get tired of it.

But to speak about the vision, I know there's confusion across the country. I would love to farm in Quebec, where I think I would be doing better as a farmer now. I talk to one of my associates there every once in a while, and we joke about it back and forth. I guess the vision I have is that we should try to reverse the trend and put some optimists back into agriculture.

And I like your idea, Mr. Steckle, that we have to have an agriculture policy in this country. Why I say we can't continue with rounds of meetings is that we need action, and we need it darn soon. We need it as soon as possible.

But in the grains and oilseeds sector we're quite excited about the biofuel industry. We're looking at options right in this province, although it's very small, and we've been told by people from other provinces, let's say Saskatchewan, that we can't do it in P.E.I. because we're too small. Well, we're proving with the beef plant in Albany that we can do something and that it doesn't have to be on a Cargill scale.

So I do believe we need that vision, and we need to move forward quickly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Miller.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being here. It's good to be in P.E.I.

Ranald, there's one thing I want to say to you: it is definitely not a waste of your time to be here. I'm a farmer too and I can tell you that one of the most frustrating things, which I've always had in view and still have as a politician, is how slow the system works and changes.

But don't ever feel that it's a waste of time. You have people around this table from all parties, and I can tell you, speaking for my colleagues from other parties, that we all have a genuine concern for agriculture. That is a fact.

We have many problems. One I talked about is the slowness of government. One of the biggest problems we have—and Wayne, Paul, and Charlie have been around for a long time—is the bureaucracy. When we go away as a group from these meetings that we're holding, I can tell you, we don't have our minds made up. Hopefully we'll have some good ideas, and we already have some—I've heard a lot of good ones tonight—but sometimes I'm not so convinced that the bureaucracy has.

Another problem we have--and this goes back 35 years and all colours of government, I'm not just picking on one—is that there hasn't been the dedication and what have you to agriculture, or the respect it should have. That has to change. And it isn't just in the federal government; it's in the provincial governments.

We've heard talk today about having one delivery plan. I know Paul believes in that, and I'm beginning to think the same way. But my province of Ontario is one of the worst; they will not give that up. Maybe the federal government is going to have to deal with it in the transfers, as somebody said here. That'll make Danny Williams happy, I'm sure. But that is a problem.

Another problem we have is within the different commodity groups. I've sat on a lot of different farm boards through the years, and every one has their own agenda. It's that “divide and conquer” mentality.

Another problem we have is with the general public themselves. They see farmers driving big fancy tractors. I'm not being critical about this; it's a fact. We need them, whether they're new or older, to do our jobs. But people look at them and ask, what's the big issue? In their minds, they're paying a high price for food.

I don't really have a question. It's more of a comment. But I can tell you I've heard a lot here. The only thing I am convinced of is that we need to find some innovative ways, as the Americans do, to deal with different things.

Somebody earlier tonight had a suggestion about CFIA inspection costs. They were particularly talking about the potato industry, but I think inspection fees are one thing government can look at in all commodities and possibly cover.

I'm probably out of time, or close to it, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to leave it at that and turn it over to the next colleague.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Ling wanted to make a comment, and then Mr. MacCallum.

[Allan Ling]

Thanks for those comments. I couldn't agree with you more.

I believe that the feds come out with some good proposals, but they get stopped at the provincial level. We are very concerned about that 40-60 split.

I also know that as a politician you can have some tremendous ideas and the will to do things properly, but they can get stalled and stopped forever in that bureaucracy that you guys have to deal with. I sometimes question that. You guys should be the policy-makers of this country; tell them to do what they're supposed to be doing. But I know how difficult it can be. I think you run into it at the federal level much more than at the provincial level.

It comes the other way around. We just had a budget pass provincially. In my opinion it's obviously an election budget, but we didn't get very much for agriculture. I think it mentioned $500,000 for the organic farmers, but there's more than organic farmers in this province. And I'm not trying to knock the organic farmers.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. MacCallum.

[Doug MacCallum]

I went through the CAIS program from A to Z. It's not a bankable program for the farmer. It's sort of stacked against the farmer, because they take your last five years of income and discard your best and worst years; those are the two years that would give the farmer the biggest pay-out. Then they use the three average years, which don't give you much pay-out. Right now everything is in a decline, and so it doesn't work for us, especially for cow-calf operators.

The appeal process is illegal, because you cannot take a lawyer into the appeal process. The government is using your friends and neighbours to put the rope around your neck, so to speak. They're doing it at arm's length, but they can say, oh no, it was the farmers themselves who lynched Doug MacCallum—that sort of thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I hope not.

[Doug MacCallum]

Well, they tried to last Thursday, but I'm still walking.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Anyway, Mr. Miller's time has expired.

Mr. Atamanenko, you're on.