Agriculture Committee on May 11th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

We're going to call this meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome our guests here today. Indeed, I think we have some very young farmers; it's good to see you.

We have a few who are still going to join us, hopefully, but we want to start.

This is the New Brunswick segment of our study on the future of agriculture, in particular how to attract young people and of course keep them in agriculture.

We're going to start with our presentations. I'm sure have some other witnesses join us.

We're going to start with Karl Von Waldow.

If you could keep your comments to 10 minutes or less, that would be great.

[Karl Von Waldow, As an Individual]

I can do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks for being here.

[Karl Von Waldow]

Thank you.

I'll give you just a bit of history or background to start off, and I'll then go on with my speech.

I'm from a dairy farm in Cornhill, New Brunswick, which is about 20 to 25 minutes away from here. My dad originally came in 1973. He started with 11 cows. We're now at a herd size of 210. We crop about 2,000 acres. I'm in the process of taking over. We just built a new dairy facility.

There are many things that I'd like to see in the future of farming. At this time, I'll go ahead with my speech. If there are any questions, we'll do that after.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Karl Von Waldow. Coming from a dairy farm in Cornhill, New Brunswick, these are some views and points of interest that I see in the future of farming.

I think more respect should be paid towards farmers, because farming is no longer for family members who did not go to university or college. Many farm operations are now multi-million dollar businesses that need very careful planning and management practices and skills, along with a vast knowledge of many things.

With the general public growing ever more populated in rural areas around farming communities and complaining about smell, noise, mud, and animal rights, we need to implement certain regulations. This way, complaining citizens cannot force an established farmer out of a lifelong business. Nine times out of ten, they were there first.

For example, in more populated areas around the world, such as California, there are regulations that inform new home builders, or new buyers of existing homes, that there are certain elements that come with a farm. If they choose to live in this area, they must respect the farmer because he was established there prior to them.

There should also be more education in schools about agriculture. This way, people would understand what goes on in the farming industry and where their food products derive from. Farmers also should open their doors to the general public, showing their daily practices and their efforts that go into making a quality product. Whether it be tours of the operation, open farm days once a year, or school field trips, all of these would educate present and future adults. It would show the public where the products come from and perhaps further entice them to buy locally.

Another alternative in the farming industry that would benefit everyone, and the future of the farming industry, is green energy. Having another source of income to pay for rising annual costs of production is always beneficial. Methane digesters, wind turbines, solar panels, pressed solids, and undigested fibres are only a few examples.

Methane digesters would dramatically help in greenhouse gas reduction by taking methane and producing power to either feed into the grid or power small communities. A 300-cow dairy has the potential to produce 300 kilowatts an hour or eight megawatts a day for 365 days a year, and to reduce the odours of manure up to 95% or greater.

Removing solids from manure not only can be source of bedding for cattle; it can be sold to gardeners and landscapers. When the leftover liquids are applied to the soil, there's greater absorption time and less runoff. All this would give the farmer an extra source of revenue.

This is an area that I'd like to see more focus on. Allow farmers to feed into the grid in certain provinces that do not have the opportunity as of yet. Perhaps grants and a fair price for electricity would make this type of project feasible.

There is a saying that my father has always told me: give a farmer a dollar, and we will spend two.

As a last remark, we have a great system in this country. There are endless possibilities and opportunities in agriculture, quality products, and a very strong agricultural community among farmers. It's just becoming a dying breed. I think we need to put more incentives into farming to intrigue younger farmers so that they will enter the workforce. Whether they're from a farming background or not, it's a great life and an interesting career.

Thank you for your attention and your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much, Karl.

We'll now move to Aaron Howe.

[Aaron Howe, As an Individual]

Good morning.

I'm not quite as prepared as he is, so I'm going to wing it. I wasn't sure what to expect when I came in.

My name is Aaron Howe. I run a dairy farm in Lower Coverdale, New Brunswick, just outside Moncton, with my wife, two kids, and my parents. My grandfather started the farm way back, quite a few years ago.

I grew up on the farm. My dad took over when I was three, so I've been there ever since, going through 4-H and whatnot.

One thing that does concern me with Canada is that we don't have a food security program. I would love to see Canadian farmers be able to feed Canada. If the border is closed tomorrow, it scares me that we wouldn't be able to survive.

I would answer any questions you have later on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks, Aaron.

Now we'll move to Becky Perry.

[Becky Perry, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Have you ever looked at your plate while eating supper and thought about where it is all coming from? Where does food come from?

My name is Becky Perry, and I live and work on a dairy operation outside Sussex with my husband, my children, and his parents. We are currently working 400 acres and milking 100 Holsteins.

It is my pleasure to be here today and speak with you on my point of view, as a young farmer, toward the agriculture industry.

So where does food come from? This has so many different answers. The sad part is that most people who have not been raised in a farm-based household do not know the answer and can't even make a guess. In today's society, people have no idea where their food is produced and are simply unaware of what agriculture provides for them.

With this lack of understanding comes a great deal of miscommunication and misjudgment of farmers and what we do. I believe with more public awareness we can make a big change in the industry. To have more public awareness, we need to engage more people in agriculture. A key way to engage agriculture into our youth is to strengthen the 4-H program. In New Brunswick we have one of the lowest-funded programs in Canada.

I was a member of 4-H for fourteen years and a volunteer leader for two. I'm currently taking some time off, as I have two young children at home. The 4-H program is very dear to my heart, and it has taught me a great deal over the years. Through the 4-H program I learned many of life's valuable lessons, including communications skills, the way to run and how to act at a business meeting, responsibility, and leadership.

The program also taught me a lot about agriculture. For most of my 4-H career, you could find me showing draft horses or beef cows. I was taught how to look after an animal, feeding techniques, and how to show and judge. These valuable lessons have been used as I have grown older and become more involved in farming.

The 4-H program also gave me great opportunities. I was one of the fortunate youths who had a chance to travel. I went to Calgary on a youth leadership course, Toronto to a national speaking competition, and Ottawa to a citizenship seminar. Seeing agriculture in other provinces and having the chance to network across Canada gives incredible memories and lots of ways to improve my own techniques.

It was also my pleasure to be an organizational leader in the club for a couple of years and volunteer my time back to the younger members. Being a leader completely changed my perspective on the program. I was no longer looking at things for myself, but how I could brighten the future for the little ones. Seeing the attitude of the young members change as they want to become more involved in agriculture puts a smile on your face. I saw kids who lived in town who built chicken coops in their backyards to sell eggs, older members who wanted to become more involved in agriculture for their career, and, most of all, I saw large groups of members sitting around a campfire and just saying thank you for making this program possible for us.

I want to make this possible for all children. The 4-H program can make a difference; however, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a program all it can be. In the New Brunswick anglophone 4-H, we only have one employee to see that the program is coordinated throughout the province. She does a great job, but she is only one woman. It would be great to have the resources and financial aid to help her expand the program.

I could stand here and talk about 4-H all day and all the good things it has to offer, but my main point is that I have experienced the program to its full potential and achieved so many notable awards and recognition from it, that I would recommend all youth to have the opportunity to be involved in it. I truly believe you would see a huge difference in the public awareness for agriculture, because 4-H and the agriculture industry go hand in hand.

The 4-H program provides a unique focus to not only rural and farm-based youth, but for urban as well. Involving youth in a program such as 4-H teaches them the skills and knowledge to help develop the future farmers of tomorrow, and as we all know, that number is decreasing day by day.

We are truly losing out in today's society by not educating our children and ourselves on issues such as food quality, food safety, agriculture science, careers in agriculture, the environment, and the value of agriculture to New Brunswick's economy. We have youth in our province who are so far removed from farming that they think our food comes from a store or that the ever-popular chocolate milk is from a brown cow. It is very important to reach our youth and educate them on the significance of agriculture.

By working with farmers, I believe we could develop an agriculture awareness initiative, where you could gather information and processes from a group of farmers and produce and distribute accurate and current materials that could be used at awareness exhibits and fairs, but most importantly in schools.

In my opinion, “ag food science” should be a mandatory course for young people when they go through the school system. Knowing where food comes from, how to store it, how to prepare it, and what to look for when buying it does not come naturally to anyone. How we eat is something that is passed along to us from generation to generation. If we don't teach ourselves and our youth about what we as farmers are doing, who is going to do it for us?

As farmers, we also need to start holding more open farm days and have the public come to see how farms operate. Not only children but adults can learn about the work done behind the scenes to produce the food on their tables. This seems easy, but the liability insurance issues and the actual cost to do this can sometimes deter us. I know that our farm really enjoys opening our doors to organizations, the community, and public groups to teach them about what we do. I haven't seen a disappointed face yet. The questions the average person asks are unbelievable. I really enjoy answering their questions and teaching them how to milk a cow. For most visitors, it's a highlight and a monumental moment in their lives that they can go away bragging about, because they just milked their first cow. For me, it's something I do every day. My little boy is 20 months old, and he already knows how to feed calves. I guess, again, that this is a great example of how you are raised.

Something we're starting to do on our farm this year is give tours for the schools in our area. We are hoping to do a few each year to try to educate the students and teachers about what we do and about what products are produced from what we make. Creating more public awareness will encourage more local buying and will therefore be a direct benefit to farmers. This will lower imports and help us become more self-sufficient as a country. The other benefit is that we will have a healthier lifestyle.

Having a population that is better informed about the agriculture industry would really make a big difference. But it's not just about developing stronger public awareness; we also need farmer awareness. It is important to keep farmers educated and up to date on current processes and technological developments. This is what creates efficiencies and more opportunities for us on the farm.

My husband and I recently took part in a seminar on best management practices with other young farmers in the Maritimes. This seminar was put on by the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum. The workshop was an excellent opportunity to focus outside the box of our own personal farm and look at agriculture as an industry, with us as a piece of the puzzle. Meeting different producers who produce different commodities gave us a chance to see the similarities and differences in what each young farmer faces in everyday reality. This workshop was a confidence booster for me in every way. It showed me so many good techniques for managing our business and for becoming involved as a young farmer to help the whole industry.

The potential of courses and resources available to farmers is endless. We want to learn. We want to be the best and to produce the best. But to do that, we need to continue our educations. An important part of the farming industry is networking with other farmers to get a better and more careful look at our operations. Talking to others puts our personal farm in a different perspective. It allows us to analyze different aspects. The networking process gives us ideas on how to create efficiencies.

Our farm recently joined a dairy management group in Sussex. Seven farms take part, and we share our financial information in a closed-meeting format. This is a way to see different areas where we can improve. We just started the group, but I really think, from belonging to this group, that we will see huge changes. Having financial support to keep management and networking groups available would be an asset for all farmers.

Overall, I'm very proud to be a farmer and to work in New Brunswick. We have a beautiful province, and if we all work together, we can make agriculture known. We can take this industry out to the public and show them what we are all about. We need to be the generation that steps out and shows what agriculture has to offer and how it is a huge part of everyone's daily life. Without the farmer, we have nothing. So let's work together to change the answer to the question: where does food come from?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks very much, Becky.

We'll now move to Cedric MacLeod from the New Brunswick Young Farmers.

[Cedric MacLeod, Executive Director, New Brunswick Young Farmers Forum]

Good morning.

By way of a bit of background on me, I operate a small farm in Carleton County. I do grass-finished beef for direct market to local consumers. I guess in a lot of ways, I'm a little different. I operate a small herd. We focus on quality and not so much on quantity. We're able to capture a fair price in the marketplace that way. That's worked out quite well for us.

I do operate an advisory service to the agricultural industry here in the Maritimes as well. I'm otherwise known as a “consultant”, but I'm trying to use “adviser” because it tends to go over better with a lot of people.

I have the opportunity to work with innovative farmers. I focus a lot on energy efficiency and renewable energy. In terms of a lot of the comments that have already been made, I have the benefit of working with farmers to study those things. So I do have some insight on that. I have some renewable energy working on my own little operation, so it's also a testing ground that allows me to better serve my clients. That's what I do on the weekends.

I act as a part-time general manager for the New Brunswick Young Farmers Forum. I've been doing that for about a year. NBYF came to be a couple of years ago around this time, at a table a lot like this. There were a lot of young folks around. They recognized the need to pull together, do a little networking, and act as a voice for the young farmer community.

As time went on, we managed it ad hoc and on a volunteer basis. It just got to the point where we had too many activities on the go that we had to enlist a little bit of professional management support. I was fortunate enough to get the nod to do that.

Things we're focusing on from NBYF include professional development for our young farmers. It's not so much on policy direction, although we do appreciate the opportunity to sit around a table such as this and share some ideas. You've already heard a lot of them here this morning, and there's more to come.

There is one thing that I hope we can start to see when we get together as young farmers. Quite often when you walk into a room of farmers, all of a sudden you're talking about corn hybrid varieties, how much you've got in the ground, when you're going to take the forage off, and how much milk the cows are producing. Personally, I'd like to hear more discussion on your debt-to-equity ratio, your return on equity last year, how your financials turned out. I think it's a piece that's really missing in agriculture as a whole.

As Becky mentioned, the CYFF put on the best management practice sessions. I was fortunate enough to get the nod to facilitate those sessions. I was very encouraged; as soon as we broke for our break or for lunch, agronomy took over the conversation, there's no doubt about it. You know, we've got a new air seeder coming; here's the picture; the tractor arrived yesterday. I still have buddies who are sending me BlackBerry pictures of the new tractor.

That was great, yes, but when it came time to sit back down at the table, and we were able to focus again on human resources and business development, I was really encouraged to see how that small group interaction worked. The guys really started to open up.

We did the New Brunswick or the regional maritimes group, and then we did the Saskatchewan group. The guys from Saskatchewan said, a number of times over, that if their neighbours were sitting there, they probably wouldn't be sharing as they were. They saw the people around the table not as competition but as partners in the industry.

So as we pull young farmers together, they realize there's strength in numbers and they have to start sharing the information so they can start to judge themselves through economic benchmarking.

Becky mentioned this with their dairy management club here in Sussex. You're going to hear from Richard VanOord here in a little bit. He and his cousin Joseph are both involved in the dairy management group in the central region around Fredericton. And I know they've taken a lot away from that. Just the chance to sit down and really dig down into the books and be able to compare your dairy farm with the guy's down the road--where is his money going and where is mine going--helps out in terms of economic efficiency, which we haven't focused on enough.

Another thing we're focused on through the BMP sessions, and we're trying to facilitate through NBYF, is human resources.

Obviously a lot of our farms are family management units. That brings in some serious management challenges that are often overlooked. So we're trying to equip our young farmers with the ability to go back and talk to mom or dad or grandfather or grandmother about the challenges that exist in succession, and in day-to-day management.

I come from a family with a construction business, and my sister and brother are both involved in the business. My father is still the CEO. My sister is a little better at it; she kind of wrenches out management control from my father as necessary. My brother has a more difficult time with that. I think we see that a lot in agriculture. Dad is still calling the shots when we've got maybe two university-educated sons or daughters on the farm who are ready to take control and go, and there is still a tight grip at the top. So equipping them with the communication skills is a big one--just the ability and the confidence to speak to dad--that we're focusing on.

Another big one we have on the go right now is board governance. This is a very important one to me. I personally sit on a few boards, and recently had some real challenges in playing an effective role. Agricultural boards are generally dominated by mature farmers who have been in the industry for a long time, have made decisions for a long time. Agriculture is almost....

Well, the day-to-day operations in the way our commodity groups run I think are in danger of not being able to move and go in a new direction quickly because of the mature members.

What we're trying to do is train our young farmers as much as possible in board governance and how to play an effective role on a board so that when we go to the board and the challenge comes from the chair, or a comment is dismissed, our members will know that it is their right to make that comment. It has to be addressed by the board. It will not be passed over because the elderly statesman who is the chair doesn't think it's important.

So I see that more and more. Again, we want to do that professional development and give our young farmers confidence, going forward.

Regarding regional interaction, we're trying to work together more closely with Nova Scotia and P.E.I. We feel this is a model that needs to broaden throughout the region. We're all pretty small provinces, and we need to work together. So we're trying to spearhead that a little bit.

Of course, there are the social activities and the networking sessions, as Becky had mentioned.

We did poll our membership to see what thoughts they had that we could bring forward to this group. There were two that stuck out quite prominently.

The first is energy systems, and you've already heard that from one of our members, Mr. Von Waldow, who talked about biogas. They're a dairy facility, and obviously anaerobic digestion is a hot topic for guys who are running liquid manure. You've got smell and greenhouse gases that can all be dealt with.

A lot of our members have talked of the Ontario model with solar panels on the roof, and we have some small-scale wind turbines. But the reason it's working in Ontario and the reason it's worked in Spain, Germany, and in so many states throughout the U.S. now is policy. If we're going to engage actively in the green energy marketplace, we need to have energy policy.

There was a federal program in place that was topping up at 1¢ per kilowatt if you were going to do renewable energy, but it was only for...if you were a one-megawatt or larger. Well, that takes a lot of our small-scale on-farm systems out of play. So if we're really going to support this green movement, then we need to have energy policies that'll bring it.

Greenhouse gas emissions or reductions was another one. Obviously, if we're going to engage in the green energy marketplace, we're going to get those greenhouse gas reductions.

I have one comment here. In Canada we've put a lot of focus on tar sands development. Fair enough; it's a big economic resource. But the greenhouse gas implications are there. We all know what they are. I just want to make the point that the more we focus on the exploitation of our non-renewable resources, the higher the Canadian dollar goes, and the more challenge we have as an export-oriented industry of playing a role in the world marketplace.

I think we need to balance how we exploit our resources. And I don't mean “exploit” in the negative, but how we utilize those resources, because they do have long-term effects and far-reaching effects for the agriculture industry.

The last comment is on extension services. Again, none of the members came back and said they needed money or income support. That wasn't the main message, although all those things are important. What they're looking for is good, solid extension resources. So you want to do economic planning on your farm, you want to do a better job of drilling down to your economic numbers and find that debt-to-equity ratio so you can share with your friends, developing business strategies and environmental support planning and innovation support.

It's being able to pick up that phone and to have, at the other end of the line, either someone who knows how you need to go about doing what you're looking to do, or someone who has access to a program and says, “Look, if you've got a consultant in mind, and you want to bring them on, then here's some paperwork to fill out. We'll come to the table with 50% support of whatever it is to engage people from off the farm to come in and take a second look.”

Those are my comments from New Brunswick Young Farmers Forum. Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Now, from the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum, we have Jonathan Stockall.

Ten minutes or less, please.

[Jonathan Stockall, Canadian Young Farmers' Forum]

All right.

My name is Jon Stockall. I'm the New Brunswick-P.E.I. board member for the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum.

It's a good thing I changed my speech; I can keep it nice and short.

I currently run a mixed farm with my grandfather in Fredericton, New Brunswick, right in the city, so we do a lot of direct marketing. I attend the Boyce farmers' market every Saturday. With a mixed farm we do mostly fruits and vegetables. We have a big apple orchard. Strawberries and sweet corn would be our other two main crops.

I changed my speech because I knew that a lot of other people would touch on subjects that I was going to touch on. One thing I want to get across, as Cedric was saying, is that we're not asking for money. We're just looking for a change, and by a change I mean nothing positive comes out of being negative.

The reason I say this, and why I am reminded of this, is that Rod Scarlett, who was the general manager of the Canadian Young Farmers, spoke out west, and he told me that a lot of the older generation of farmers didn't want their sons or daughters to take over their farms because of all the negativity that they have seen over their lives. What we're trying to do, from the CYFF perspective, is have a positive spin and outlook on everything.

So that's basically what we have to deal with. The CYFF is a great resource for young farmers to go to. We get to travel across the country, meet with other farmers. As Becky and Cedric mentioned, the BMP workshops are great. I attend them as well. We get to find out what we're having troubles with on our farms and take steps to try to correct them.

But in saying that, in spite of all this positive from travelling nationally, we come back to our kitchen tables and we still have to hear the same negativity from, as Cedric said, the people who are still running the farms--our fathers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles.

So how do we promote farming and provide training? I believe it starts with government. And we're not talking about red-tape programs. We're talking about how the Roman Empire concentrated on their farmers because they knew that they needed to have great food in order to support an amazing army.

So we need the government to step up by being better promoters of our local food economy. We need to see them around our local markets, supporting our “buy local” movement. Speaking as a direct marketer who attends a farmers' market every Saturday, I rarely see a politician at our market. Rarely do politicians understand what goes on in the food industry or visit farms and see how our operations work.

There are a lot of things that we can learn from our older generation. If you go back a hundred years, almost anybody you knew grew crops or knew how to farm and knew about the cycle of different kinds of crops. We can't grow strawberries in February, but we can still buy them in the supermarkets now, so we are really distant from our forefathers.

There are a few things I want to touch on. I believe the two biggest areas that we need to concentrate on are education and health care. We need to teach the people how to eat properly. We need to get back to holistic nutrition, and instead of concentrating on health care, we need to concentrate on prevention, so that we aren't putting money back into health care and the sick. We can prevent that by helping them to eat properly and have healthy bodies. Then we can put more money into our farms and educate people.

Again, I changed my speech, because I knew that a lot of other people were going to concentrate on a few small things.

I do believe that we need to grow more locally. People have become accustomed to eating food that we haven't been able to grow around here for generations, so I think the one thing that we would need as far as money would be infrastructure. In order to grow crops that aren't available, that we don't have the temperature for, we need greenhouses or high tunnels in order to be able to supply the public with pineapples or different kinds of peppers and whatnot that you wouldn't be able to get anywhere else. This will cut down on the greenhouse gas emissions, because then we are not trucking this stuff or flying it from Costa Rica, Mexico, or wherever.

In conclusion, I just want to say that I took eight years of education to be a doctor, and I find myself coming back to the farm to help out my grandfather because I see a lot of potential in farming. With oil going to run out--and it's only going to get more expensive--we're going to have to concentrate more on our local markets.

My family's land in Fredericton is worth a lot more money to be developed as a subdivision than as a farm, but it's going to be farmed for the next 50 or 60 years at least.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks very much, Jonathan.

We've had some very interesting comments around the table.

We are going to start with members' questions. Our first round will be seven minutes each.

We'll first of all go to Mark Eyking.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming here today.

It seems like you're a very busy bunch right now, so to come here and talk to us, it's appreciated. We've been travelling across the country the last few weeks and hearing from many young farmers, or potential young farmers.

When I landed in Sussex last night, I picked up this paper, the Telegraph-Journal. It's good to see agriculture on the front page. You don't see it too much. But this was about an announcement that was made just recently. It was a federal-provincial announcement. I don't want to get into the politics of it, I just want to say that, reading the article, it said how important industry was to New Brunswick. I think there is almost $500-million worth of farm gate sales, with almost 3,000 farmers, so it's a substantial part of the New Brunswick economy.

The federal-provincial program was kind of pushing for cheaper production, new crops, new food processing.

You mentioned, Jonathan, young farmers. My wife and I were the Outstanding Young Farmers in Nova Scotia, and we went to the Ottawa conference last fall. What's interesting is that when we were farming, it was all about production, production, production. That was the main thing. But what I found with many of the representatives from each province was that what was happening on their farms with green energy was one of the key reasons why they received awards.

It has been brought up by a couple of you now about green technology. We visited some fairly efficient farms over the last couple of weeks that are using a lot of green technology.

Now, tying this together, you would think right now that government programs--you talked about government programs, Jonathan, about how important they are--should be really pushing agriculture to be the saviour, or be instrumental, in their environment. I don't think it should just come from Agriculture Canada. I think we should be looking at maybe different industries, the environment industry and looking at programs. There was an allusion to Europe and how they are way ahead of us in Europe on-farm in dealing with technology.

My question is probably for you three, and you can sum it up. What programs should we have federally and provincially? What should be coming down the pipe, similar to Europe, that will really help farmers not only become better stewards of the land and whatever but also be big contributors to our greenhouse gas emissions--become better neighbours with less smell?

What programs should be there federally and provincially that are really going to make a difference on-farm--not just big farms but small and medium-sized farms? Many of you might know what they are doing in Europe. I don't know what they're doing in Europe, but whatever they're doing, they are moving way ahead of us on-farm with those technologies.

[Cedric MacLeod]

To address the European context, it came down to energy policy. We've seen announcements of this. Ontario has done this, they followed the lead of Germany, and now we're seeing Nova Scotia coming on board. If you're going to have renewable energy play a role in your economy, you've got to say what it costs to produce wind below 100 kilowatts and this is what we're going to pay, plus 10%. If Mr. Von Waldow wants to build a biogas plant, chances are it's going to cost him 17¢, 18¢, 19¢ a kilowatt hour to turn that electricity and make a profit.

The problem is that everybody throws their hands up and says the economy can't absorb 19¢ a kilowatt hour, but what we need to keep in mind is that energy prices are going up and they will continue to go up over time. Just because Mr. Von Waldow puts in a biogas plant and it's turning 300 kilowatts doesn't mean the entire power grid now has to pay 19¢ for electricity.

The incremental piece he adds to the grid adds such a small extra cost that's absorbed across the entire rate base that nobody ever really sees it. But what you get is broad-based investment in renewables, because now he can go to the bank, “I've got a contract for 19¢. It's going to give him 12.5% return on my investment, on my farm.” Now he can go to Royal Bank or FCC and say, “Here it is, let's go to work.” They can tell him, okay, they can see that he has a set revenue.

The challenge we find is that when you go without a solid renewable energy...like a feed-in tariff policy. The economics are so marginal, the banks don't want to touch it. FCC barely wants to touch it. Then we're into programs. We're going to go and apply to NRCan or Agriculture Canada: it's a special project, it's a demonstration project. Well, you can only do so many demonstration projects. Without a broad-based policy mechanism to allow us to integrate, all you get is one-off projects.

So if we're going to do anything, if you want to know how to really engage renewable energy, take a look at the German policy; take a look at the Ontario policy, the Green Energy Act. That will tell you exactly what we need to do.

Now, I realize that's a difficult piece, because each province is in charge of its own energy destiny, but some support, to an extent, on pulling that together.... If federally there was a program to say we'll top up 3¢ on that power grid for renewable projects in agriculture, then maybe the province would come to the table with the other 4¢ or 5¢, whatever is needed. That would be a fairly good model for a program.

The other alternative is to put cash on the table so that you don't have to go and raise as much financing.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

If I were a resident of Moncton or Saint John or Fredericton, and if the New Brunswick government or federal government said you guys may not like the smell of farms and whatever, but we're going to not only capture the smell, we're going to be more of a green province, there's got to that kind of selling on it, too, where the average citizen who's buying their power says, “Look, I don't mind where that's going.”

But you're saying more that there has to be a subsidy or something on the power rates--that will trigger the rest--instead of the money there for technology. Or do you think it needs both: helping the farmer with the technology and also having the subsidy on the grid? Is that what you're thinking--both, or...?

[Cedric MacLeod]

When you develop a feed-in tariff policy and you focus on the price of electricity, that means everybody gets to play. If you put money out there then you've only got a set cost, and only so many projects are going to go forward. A feed-in tariff policy potentially allows everybody to get in. If you've got a viable project, you can go forward.

You're absolutely right, you're going to have to sell that somehow. There's the greenhouse gas benefit to this, which has an economic value, which would be another way to support this. If we had a federal gas reduction carbon market, then all of a sudden that carbon price becomes intrinsic to our power values and now you can justify 3¢, or whatever it is, to carbon.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Do I another half a minute?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

No, you're actually out of town--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

--or out of time; sorry.

Just on that, Cedric, I farm in Ontario. Mr. McGuinty has brought in the Green Energy Act. The opposition out there, especially on wind power, and the way he's brought it in....

I've always been a supporter of alternative energy, including wind. I'll tell you, it has divided communities unbelievably. It's some of the same people who over the years have been pushing governments to say we need to go with more green energy, but when they bring the rules in, they don't like it.

I just bring that up to point out the obstacles out there. It's not as accepted by the community as you would think it would be when it comes down to it. It's the “We want it, but not in our backyard” kind of deal.

Before we move on to Ms. Bonsant, Mr. VanOord has just joined us.

[Richard VanOord, Agricultural Alliance of New Brunswick]

I apologize, Mr. Chair, but a friend of ours hit a deer right in front of us on the way here. We had to stop for a half an hour until the police arrived, and so on and so forth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

No apology is necessary. I understand. We have deer problems at this time of year in our area.

Would five minutes or so be enough for your opening remarks?

[Richard VanOord]

Yes, although I don't know what has been spoken about so far.

My name is Richard VanOord. I'm a dairy farmer. We purchased the farm in 2001 from my parents. My wife and I both own 50% of the shares.

I'm here on behalf of the alliance. I am an alliance director, voted in this past spring.

I have a few thoughts to share with you. I don't know where you guys are coming from and what you guys hope to get out of this meeting as far as information is concerned. But one of a few things that have come up provincially, as well as federally, is the profitability in the agriculture commodities. There seem to be a difficulty in a lot of commodities. I don't think it's the next generation coming through that's the problem; I think the problem is profitability. If we can show the next generation, if we can show people out there, that there is profitability in the agriculture sector, we will have a future there.

I haven't seen the latest statistics, but about eight years ago, in seven out of eight provinces, the number one industry was agriculture and agrifood. I don't know if that's changed, but that's something we have to keep in the forefront. That is essential for rural Canada, which is still 50% or so of the population. Again, in seven out of the ten provinces, the number one industry is agriculture and agrifood. I hope that hasn't changed. I hope it's actually increased to eight or more provinces.

I was at the dentist not that long ago. I got some teeth work done. It cost $400 or $500. I thought, you know what? The dentist had done a marvellous job of keeping up with inflation. Fifteen or twenty years ago, it would have cost you 2% or 3% or 5% of your income to pay for a dentist. Well, today it still costs you about 5% or 6% of your income, whatever it is, to pay for the dentist.

Twenty years ago, it used to cost 20% to 25% of your income for food, and now we're down below 8%. In some places it's 7%. We have this cheap food policy, which is nice for the consumers, but it's extremely difficult sometimes for the producers.

What have we done wrong in the past not to have kept up with inflation like the dentists or the automakers have? Why is that? Why is there that struggle there? That's a question I have. I think those dentists are very wise and very smart. They know you need your teeth fixed, so they know they have you. Well, people need to eat too. There are other countries in the world that still spend 25% to 50% of their incomes on food.

So I guess profitability is the number one concern in this province, at least that I've heard. We have the land, we have a lot of things, but we just have to make sure they can pay for what they have.

Imports are coming in. They won't stop, but do they have the same safety criteria we have here in Canada? That's an ongoing concern. I know you guys have heard it before, but I'll express it again. Those foods that are coming in should have the same standards, and there should be the same responsibilities for the people of this country, just like we have when it comes to putting things in our food.

If you drink apple juice, it will say right on the carton, “Packaged in Canada”. But who knows where the juice comes from?

It's more a provincial thing than a federal thing, but we need to have funding available. I know Farm Credit is a federal thing, but here in this province we have the Agricultural Development Board. I think I was the last person in dairy who actually signed up for it, and that was in 2001. So I know they're revamping the program, but that's something we need to look at.

Employees or staffing is a constant thing. We were without somebody on our farm and we actually were going to look to another country to find workers. That's an ongoing concern.

Those are the major points I have today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you, Richard. I'm sure you'll get some time to respond to questions.

Ms. Bonsant, for seven minutes.