Evidence of meeting #49 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael J. Emes  Dean, College of Biological Science, University of Guelph
Rene Van Acker  Professor and Associate Dean, Department of Plant Agriculture, University of Guelph
Manish N. Raizada  Associate Professor, International Relations Officer, Department of Plant Agriculture, University of Guelph
Derek Penner  President and General Manager, Monsanto Canada Inc.
Frank Ingratta  President, Ingratta Innovations Inc., As an Individual
Mike McGuire  East Sales, Marketing Lead, Monsanto Canada Inc.
William J. Rowe  President and Chief Executive Officer, Nutrasource Diagnostics Inc.
John Kelly  Vice-President, Erie Innovations, Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers' Association
Steven Rothstein  Professor, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, University of Guelph
Allan Paulson  Associate Scientific Director, Advanced Foods and Materials Network

11:15 a.m.

Dr. Allan Paulson Associate Scientific Director, Advanced Foods and Materials Network

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am the associate scientific director of AFM Net, which is a national network of centres of excellence. The headquarters are here in Guelph. I happen to be a university professor and researcher at Dalhousie University in Halifax. I'm also the director of the Canadian Institute of Fisheries Technology, which is a non-profit R and D facility supporting local industry in the Maritimes. I was also at one time a research scientist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. That's a bit of my background.

What I want to talk about is basically the disconnect, or the two solitudes, between the research challenges faced by industry and the research challenges faced by universities and government. Then I'll talk about how we can bring these areas together to optimize our resources.

From the industry side, the research needs are usually very applied. They're short term and pragmatic—they need an answer now.

Take the food industry. It is typically low margin, high volume. This means that if you're a small or medium-sized enterprise you have limited funds for research. But even large companies have downsized or outsourced their R and D. So there isn't a lot of money in industry for research.

Also the ownership of intellectual property has to be clear. They don't necessarily have to own the IP, but they have to know who does own it.

Finally, confidentiality is essential. First off the mark usually wins.

I'll speak for university researchers, but this applies almost equally to government researchers. University researchers have conflicted demands. They have research versus teaching, pure discovery versus applied research. When you're an industry researcher, you have one focus. You're focusing on research for that company. When you're a university researcher, you have a lot of different hats that you're wearing.

For career advancement, the traditional emphasis is on discovery research rather than applied research. Collaborative research is not as highly valued when you come up for tenure or promotion. University research tends to have a longer timeline. You're expected to have research programs rather than projects per se, projects within programs but still long-term programs. Most of the research is done by graduate students and post-docs, so there's a training element involved. It's difficult to tell a grad student to work on a project and present an answer in a month.

The other thing is that the focus is on publications, not patents. For tenure and promotion, they'll count the publications, but patents don't get the same value, which I think is completely backward. Grad student theses also take time to publish, so it's this whole publish or perish model for profs.

Finally, the IP can be problematic—it's extremely important in industry. Many, if not most, researchers aren't really that interested in IP. A lot of them wouldn't know IP if they were to stumble over it. The value of the IP isn't recognized. The protection of IP is extremely spotty. Most labs do not have rigorous protocols for making sure that everything is documented in lab books. Also, different universities have different policies. A company dealing with universities is not always going to have the same playing field.

Overlaying all this are other challenges. Canada is a vast country. We have a small population. We have scattered expertise and resources. Our research culture is not geared to collaborative, transformative research. The food industry is fragmented nationally, but so is the research community. We have a lot of really good research going on, but it is scattered and not linked.

The upshot of this is that both sides are frustrated. What this means is that there's a loss of opportunities. Canada is great at fundamental research but very poor at application and commercialization of research.

Getting down to the opportunity, so far we haven't done a great job of linking the industry and the different research capabilities. At the Advanced Foods and Materials Network, a nationwide research organization put together to link academia with industry, government, non-government organizations, and international organizations, the infrastructure has been developed. We have a wealth of experience at putting together research teams that are aimed at transformative research and commercialization of research, as well as training highly qualified personnel who are going to be the leaders of tomorrow.

The funding for this network is going to cease as of March 31 of this year. Having this infrastructure in place, having the expertise and experience in place, is an opportunity to take this and overlay it as a research manager for the disparate sections across Canada in both industry and academia. It's a central portal to put together industry and researchers, NGOs, etc.

I'll stop there and answer any questions.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much.

We'll now move into questions.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

A point of order?

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Very briefly, Mr. Chair.

The clerk has circulated Mr. Rowe's document. You know the committee rule about French and English, the two official languages. The French document is completely unintelligible. So I am asking the clerk not to circulate a document when it is like that. It is not just a matter of two or three mistakes in the French. The document was probably translated by computer and, for me, it might as well be in Chinese. My anglophone colleagues can understand what they have been given, but I can't. I want to remind witnesses that they can submit their documents to the clerk in the language of their choice, English or French, and we can have them translated. The document I'm talking about is not in French, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Obviously my French isn't very good. I looked at it. It is in French. If there's a problem with the quality of the French, I suggest you take that up with—

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

It is not a matter of quality. The document is made up of a series of French words placed one after another, but it is completely unintelligible. That is what I want to tell you. It has to be clear.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Maybe “quality” was the wrong word. Again, I think you've made your point with the presenters.

Mr. Rowe.

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Nutrasource Diagnostics Inc.

William J. Rowe

For Mr. Bellevance's understanding, it was not done by machine. It was done by one of my staff who is certified in bilingualism. I apologize.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

It was done with good intentions.

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Nutrasource Diagnostics Inc.

William J. Rowe

It was definitely done with good intentions. I apologize for whatever communication—

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I do not want to get into a long debate about this, but your employee...

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Neither do I.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes, but the rule is clear. This document should not have been circulated. That is all I mean. I don't want to hear about good intentions.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

The rules are that it be in both languages, and in my opinion, from what I'm hearing, the French is not good. Mr. Rowe has apologized. I don't know what else we can do, other than all learn from it.

Mr. Valeriote, seven minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Gentlemen, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to come to us today to share your thoughts on issues the committee is dealing with in biotechnology. Of course, our impulse is to assume that transgenics is the issue, but it obviously isn't; it is only part of a much broader biotech industry.

John, you really brought that home in discussing biofuels, the environment, plastics, and any number of other things. The committee has had an opportunity to see evidence of all of that this week, having been in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

We talked about transgenics earlier this morning, and at this juncture we're talking about commercialization. I agree, and it's something I think we're all noticing, that we have great innovation. We're exporting all our great innovation like we're exporting our natural resources.

There's a lot of infrastructure out there right now to help with commercialization, such as, AFMNet. There is MARS in Toronto. We're trying to develop a mini-MARS here in Guelph. There's one in Ottawa.

I'm wondering if you think the government should direct greater energy and resources, not just financial resources but create a department of commercialization to help people adapt, identify where the infrastructure is, support it where it exists, and maybe replicate it where it doesn't exist. Only through that effort do I think the minds, the money, and the people with the entrepreneurial skills will actually come together and keep all of our wonderful innovation from being exported.

Steven, you mentioned a report, which you said you wouldn't refer to at length, about how poor our funding is in basic research compared to other countries. You seemed to have some statistics to back that up. Could you provide that to the clerk at another point in time?

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, University of Guelph

Dr. Steven Rothstein

I don't have a report, but I could certainly get you the statistics.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

You could get us the statistics.

When we were at Olds College yesterday, I heard them say we're losing a lot of our researchers. They're not staying in Canada. We thought something quite different earlier, that our researchers were staying.

I'd like you to address the commercialization question and what's needed to hold on to our researchers. If there's time, I'd like to speak to you specifically about AFMNet's loss of funding.

11:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Erie Innovations, Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers' Association

Dr. John Kelly

I would be happy to talk about that.

Do we need a department of commercialization? I think we have much better success when we put commercialization into the hands of people who can actually commercialize. That's why I'm supportive of organizations like BioEnterprise, for example. Their mandate is to help organizations commercialize. They also have the ability to work with a lot of people within the sector.

We need to find ways to support those who have the experience in doing commercialization. It may not be another government department, but certainly working within the current infrastructure of Industry Canada and working with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, in particular, because that's what BioEnterprise's mandate is, will be very important.

I get a little worried that by creating another department it just becomes another organization that is doing what is currently being done but is not being done effectively. We know that in Canada we are really poor at commercialization. The U of T business school studies have shown that. I would suggest that we need to fund organizations that actually are on the ground doing the commercialization.

With regard to losing researchers, we're in exactly the same boat in the fruit and vegetable sector for a different reason. Researchers are hitting retirement age. That's a key issue for us because we don't have a plan for what's going to happen in the future. When Adam Dale and Alan McKeown retire from the Simcoe Research Station, who's going to do the berry research and some of the small crop genomics-type research that we need to have done?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Steven.

11:30 a.m.

Professor, Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology, University of Guelph

Dr. Steven Rothstein

I'd like to address a couple of things. On the commercialization front, there are two things I want to say. With regard to my own personal area of research, what we really need is to be really, really good at some things that we're not quite good enough at if we want to attract companies and additional commercialization. I couldn't emphasize that too much. You can just look at the high-tech industries, where Waterloo is really good at certain things, and you see the commercialization that comes from that. I don't want to get into that in more detail at this point, but I'd be happy to if someone has the question.

The second thing is, I've been involved with some small companies, and in comparison with our neighbours to the south, we're not very good at supporting small business with regard to research. I couldn't emphasize enough how important the SBIR--small business innovation research--grants are in the U.S., as opposed to the way we do things here, which always involves matching grants and a lot of bureaucracy. There, people write grants, they get the funding, they start. Here, you need to get some matching money and you have a bureaucrat following you every month asking you where you've spent the money. I think that's a big difference.

With regard to maintaining our researchers here, we clearly have some problems right now. The university funding is not growing. That means we're not hiring new faculty members. We haven't hired for a few years. We won't hire for another three or four years. That's not unique to us. On top of that, the sorts of opportunities we could create, if we did get really good at some things and attracted commercial ventures here, would have an enormous impact, I think.

That's all I really want to say, I guess.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

If I could, Allan, AFMNet has lost its funding, and then shortly thereafter we learned that NSERC has withdrawn from its priorities--food research--which is of grave concern to a lot of people. I've had people write to me--Maple Leaf, for instance. Just two days ago, Dr. Jill Hobbs and Mark Wartman in Saskatchewan expressed grave concern about AFMNet.

Can you tell us what needs to be done? If NSERC won't fund you, and you need it, tell us why you need it, the benefit of it, and what we might do to help you.

11:35 a.m.

Associate Scientific Director, Advanced Foods and Materials Network

Dr. Allan Paulson

AFMNet as an entity right now functions both as a facilitator, a trainer of highly qualified people, and as a granting agency. Now, the way I see AFMNet's most important role isn't necessarily as a granting agency, although that is something that is extremely important because of the cutback in NSERC funds, but being able to facilitate the putting together of researchers, bridging that death valley between the laboratory bench and being able to take a product and commercialize it....

The biggest loss for me, though, is in HQP training, training students, training technicians and post-doctorals to be entrepreneurs. We have a strong multi-disciplinary, multi-sectoral training program. Eighty per cent of the research funding to AFMNet goes to support graduate students, undergraduates, post-doctorals, etc. We give them a training opportunity that is far and away more diverse, more varied than any other graduate student is going to get. This opportunity is going to be lost.

Two weeks ago we had a professional development school, which we have annually, and as usual we had rave reviews. We had entrepreneurs. We had people there basically asking how to prepare resumés. It's things like this that these students get that they won't get if they're chained to a laboratory bench, and it's going to be gone. So there must be some way in order to continue.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you.

Mr. Hoback, seven minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for coming here this morning. It's great to listen to the people in the field, and it's always great to get out of Ottawa, even to come to Guelph. It's great.

I think I'm going to continue down the road that Frank started on, on what the University of Saskatchewan called “the valley of death”. Their interpretation of the valley of death was when you had an idea and you actually were able to develop it to a certain phase, and then you hit the valley of death when you went to commercialize it.

John, do you have any ideas on how we can bridge that valley of death?