Evidence of meeting #78 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susie Miller  Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
Brian McCauley  Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, meeting number 78. Our orders of the day are pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, January 31, 2013. We continue our study of the agricultural and agrifood products supply chain, the beverage sector.

Joining us today from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada is Susie Miller, director general, sector development and analysis directorate, market and industry services branch. Boy, you have a big business card. From the Canada Revenue Agency, we have Brian McCauley, assistant commissioner, legislative policy and regulatory affairs branch.

I understand, Ms. Miller, that you are going to make an opening statement, and then we'll move to questions.

11:45 a.m.

Susie Miller Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Thank you, Chair.

I would like, first of all, to take this opportunity to thank the committee for inviting us to provide an overview of the Canadian beverage industry and the work that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada does on behalf of the industry.

My colleague, Brian McCauley, is the assistant commissioner of the legislative policy and regulatory affairs branch at CRA. He will undertake to answer questions as they relate to the CRA's role in taxation and regulation of the alcohol industry in Canada. Just to summarize, they're responsible for administering the provisions of the Excise Act, 2001, on spirits and wine, and the Excise Act, on beer. Under these statutes, CRA licenses and regulates the producers of these products, as well as collects and audits the excise duties levied on these products. The CRA is also responsible for the Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act as it interacts with the Excise Act, 2001, and the Excise Act.

What I'd like to do is provide a short presentation in two stages. I'll provide an overview of the Canadian beverage manufacturing industry. Then I'll talk a little about what Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada does in conjunction with the development and the competitiveness of the beverage industry.

We define the beverage manufacturing industry as including alcoholic beverages, but also non-alcoholic beverages, such as soft drinks, juices, bottled water, etc. It includes, of course, from our perspective, the inputs from the producers—grapes, fruit, grain—but it also includes the processors: wineries, breweries, distilleries, malters, bottlers, packers, roasters, and blenders, for example.

Our primary role in the market and industry services branch is to provide support to the industry in the form of market development assistance and trade resolution services, but also to remove barriers to growth and competitiveness in the industry. We proactively work with the industry to identify what their challenges are and see what we can do as government to assist in the resolution.

In terms of the industry itself—and I realize you've received a number of representations—in 2011, our numbers show that it provided direct manufacturing jobs for 25,000 Canadians, so it's not insubstantial. It represented about 17% of the overall food and beverage gross domestic product. Canada supplies 70% of all processed beverage products available in Canada. We're the largest supplier of our own market. The sales of alcoholic beverages were $21 billion. It's a big industry. Beer remains the largest seller within the alcoholic beverages sector, at about $9 billion, followed by wine at $6.5 billion, and spirits at just over $5 billion.

We're also big exporters. Canada's distillery industry exported about $500 million in products in 2012. Those are the distilleries. The beer exports were about $200 million. This is just the beer itself, not the ingredients for beer. For wine it was $41 million.

A lot of these are mature categories, but on the beer side, craft beers have been performing better than the overall beer category. It is expected to provide opportunities for further growth. Wine performed well in 2012, growing in both value and volume sales.

The increase in the number of craft breweries, craft distilleries, and new wineries across the country is evidence of a thriving alcoholic beverage industry in Canada that contributes economically to all regions across the country.

You will see that the larger companies tend to be centrally located or concentrated, but there are a lot of smaller companies that are growing that are adding to the economic impact on a regional basis. That's the alcohol side.

Now, the non-alcoholic side includes soft drinks, juices, bottled water, tea and coffee. The domestic shipments were valued at about $5.5 billion in 2011, and that involved 15,000 employees. Overall, there are 25,000 employees with 15,000 of them in the non-alcoholic beverages and the rest in alcoholic beverages. We're also exporters of non-alcoholic beverages. Interestingly enough, we shipped $500 million of coffee and tea out of Canada, and about $155 million of soft drinks and bottled water products.

Both the alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverage industries are very dynamic. That's probably one of the parts of the food industry where consumer demand changes quickly. We've seen that our industry is responding very well to new consumer demands, new products such as coolers, flavoured spirits, wheat beer, energy drinks, specialty coffees and teas. With the development of calorie-reduced beverages and new products that offer functional properties, the soft drink industry is being more responsive to demands for healthy products.

Although these industries are different in many ways, what we've found is that opportunities and challenges are common no matter what beverages they produce. They also have a lot in common with the food processing industry for non-beverage foods. For example, what we've seen over the last 10 years is a strong Canadian dollar, rising energy and raw material prices, and a more global environment. Packaging and landfill constraints is a big issue that has impacted the beverage industry more than some of the other food processing industries. Consumer demographics are changing as well. These are some of the challenges shared by those in the food processing industry.

We work proactively with these industries to see what we can do to help them improve their competitiveness. For example, we provide sector support and expertise on the farm inputs and manufacturing components that will ultimately benefit wineries, breweries, and distilleries. As an example of the kinds of things we undertake, last November Minister Ritz held an Agri-Processors/Producers' Summit in Toronto to facilitate discussion between the producers and the processors about approaches to enhance innovation and efficiency along the Canadian supply chain. Among the recommendations coming from that dialogue between processors and producers are specific supply chain activities to enhance competitiveness, including the incorporation of more Canadian agricultural inputs for processors, but having the dialogue to ensure that the producers are actually able to deliver what the processors need.

We're looking forward to the conclusion of your study and the recommendations you might make to improve competitiveness, particularly in the beer and spirits sector.

I appeared before you last year to talk about the value chain round tables and the work that we do there. There are two of them that I'd like to mention in reference to the beverage industry: the Horticulture Value Chain Roundtable and the Food Processing Industry Roundtable. Each of those works on specific issues that have impacts on the beverage industry, one from the fruit and vegetable production and processing side on the horticulture, and the other one more generally on the food processing side.

Each of these round tables is committed to examining challenges affecting the growth of the industry and proactively putting measures in place not only to identify opportunities, but also to undertake actions to address the competitiveness issues.

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada also has research support in two ways. One is through the Wine Grape Research Network at the Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre in the Okanagan Valley. It's connected with the Cool Climate Oenology and Viticulture Institute. They do work on arid viticulture, vineyard ecology and terroir, crop protection, oenology, and wine sensory quality to assist the wine industry.

We're also a supporter, through our program funding, of the Canadian Malting Barley Technical Centre, which provides technical services to the beer industry on the utilization of Canadian malt, including the evaluation of new varieties and technical assistance on how best to use this to get the best product.

We also have a regulatory role. The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has the responsibility to ensure adherence to the ministerial order for the issuance of age and origin certificates for distilled spirits. In plain language, that means, for example, shippers crossing over into the U.S. actually need certification from a government body to indicate that the product is Canadian whisky, because it is a protected designation, and that it really is 20 years old, 8 years old, or 10 years old. The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has the responsibility for ensuring that's done and for the requirements of the Spirit Drinks Trade Act, which basically says there are certain liquor, alcohol, or spirit products that can only originate from a particular country, such as grappa from Italy. He also provides input and advice to the Minister of Industry on the protection of wine and spirit drinks under the Trade-marks Act.

We're also co-leaders on the international stage of the World Wine Trade Group, which is an organization of non-European winemakers, such as Australia, the U.S., and Argentina, etc, who collaborate on issues related to international wine trade.

We also contribute to the committee on internal trade in Canada, toward resolving issues on internal trade and movement of products across Canada.

We also work with our colleagues at CRA, Finance, International Trade, etc, in either a formal or an informal way to address specific issues across departments.

With the implementation of Growing Forward 2, there was certainly a lot of investment to the wine and beverage industry. Many of these programs have been retained. We're now in the process of receiving applications and reviewing them, and decisions will be made sometime in the next three or four months.

We have retained the AgriMarketing program, and Minister Ritz announced the AgriInnovation program in November, I believe. The industry organizations and associations, plus individual companies, have access to those programs, and with the signing of the cost-shared agreements with the provinces and territories, what we have seen is a greater interest in moving beyond, and inclusion of the food processing industry, including the beverage sector.

Essentially, these programs are available to ensure that industry and government can work together for investments in the development of technology that will continue to keep the competitiveness of the beverage industry in Canada at the forefront among the agriculture and food sectors.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your time today.

My colleague and I would be pleased to answer any questions that may arise.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Brosseau.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses today. I'm sorry, but with votes, things can change at the last minute.

I just want to touch on buying Canadian. When I'm out in my riding and I do my shopping, I find more and more Canadians want to buy products from Canada. What we've seen from the wine industry is that statistics show that 30% of the market share is Canadian wine and 70% is imported.

Is the government doing something to help support Canadian businesses to make more of a buy local effort? What is the government doing to help Canadian businesses thrive?

11:55 a.m.

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

In response to your question, what we have within Growing Forward 2 programming are two components that we believe will help the industries.

First of all, we have had a lot of investment over the years in international marketing, but recognizing that the Canadian market is part of the global marketplace, those kinds of marketing activities can be extended to the Canadian level as well.

In addition, we have seen more interest in the provinces and territories in using cost-shared Growing Forward 2 money to assist their industry. At this point in time, not all the agreements have been signed and not all the provinces and territories have announced their programs, so we can't provide an exact identification, but we can say that there's more significant interest in assisting the industry to take it's proper place within the domestic market as well.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

In budget 2012, there were changes to the container sizes, a deregulation of these containers. We've heard a lot of pushback, with industry saying that these changes could negatively affect their businesses and that there may be job losses. To your knowledge, was there any consultation done before this was put in budget 2012?

Noon

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

I can't answer that.

I can answer about the consultations going on currently, because—

Noon

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

After the fact.

Noon

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

After the fact.... That is including a number of formal consultations held last year, a series of formal meetings, including with Minister Ritz, in the fall period. We are embarking, as of next week, on another round of discussions with the industry, which we hope to have concluded. By “we”, I mean the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. The beverage manufacturers, including those for juice and wine, are high on the list of priorities to undertake those discussions.

Noon

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Perfect.

We've heard from some witnesses, especially those from the spirit industry, that they want a clearer regulation. I was wondering if the government is undertaking a process to update or define liquor, beer, wine, and spirits...a clear definition.

Noon

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

Could you provide more precision on what kind of updating? There are many regulations that cover these. Are these standards that you're requesting?

Noon

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Yes, standards, like a clear definition of what a beer consists of, and what is a wine, and what is a whisky.

May 2nd, 2013 / noon

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

In the current work that's ongoing, we have been working with the industry on a standard for icewine, which is critical, both for us in Canada and internationally.

In addition, although I can't speak on behalf of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, they are undertaking a regulatory review for the implementation of regulations under the Safe Food for Canadians Act. Within that, I believe there are plans and opportunities to discuss the standards for identity of various products.

From our perspective at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, we work with many of the agriculture and food industries to identify what their regulatory objectives are. We would certainly be pleased to do that with the beer and spirits industry. We have regular dialogue with them.

Noon

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

The Canadian wine industry has asked for an excise tax for blended wines. What do you think of that?

Noon

Brian McCauley Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

As you know, that's a tax policy question. From a CRA perspective, we're really indifferent as to the level of tax; it's having the tax properly applied.... We're indifferent as to what the rate would be.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Lemieux.

Noon

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I would like to discuss some of the issues in regard to the movement of alcohol between provinces. Certainly, this agriculture committee travelled across Canada a few years ago, and we met with the wine industry. There was great frustration, in that our Canadian wine industry is very competitive, but it's easier for them to sell their product internationally than it is to sell it interprovincially to other Canadians.

In the course of this study, we've had the same types of challenges raised, a little less so by the wine industry now, because Dan Albas had his private member's bill, which was supported by the grape industry and the wine industry in terms of being able to sell their product more easily through the removal of barriers to interprovincial trade.

We've had representatives from the beer industry, for example, and representatives from the spirits industry, who also made reference to the fact that there are barriers—and some of them are federal barriers—to the movement of spirits and beer between provinces. I have an example in my own riding, where a very successful microbrewery is penetrating the U.S. before it will penetrate a neighbouring province. Because of all the hurdles in penetrating the neighbouring provinces, it's actually easier and probably more cost-effective for them to go into the States.

Brian, I'd like to ask you this, because I think some of these things are overseen by the Revenue Canada. Can you tell us what regulations of a federal nature there are right now that inhibit the transfer or sale of spirits and beer among provinces? Why don't we start with that?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Brian McCauley

You are quite right. Last year, a private member's bill amended the Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act to remove from the act what was a technical legal barrier to the importation from province to province of wine by an individual, and it's probably good to describe that amendment.

Essentially, it removed the federal prohibition and provided an exception for personal consumption, that people could import. It removed the federal impediment but still left all provincial authorities to regulate and to do whatever they wished in the management of liquor, alcohol, and wine within the province. So, in essence, with respect to the federal government, before, under the act, there was a prohibition, but now it's neutral. It says we aren't in that playing field.

If you wanted that same scenario for beer and spirits, it would be a similar type of amendment to the Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Right. I think witnesses who came before this committee would greatly appreciate that.

Both on the reg side and on the Revenue Canada side, what impact do you think that would have on the spirits industry and on the liquor industry? Would there be a positive outcome from those types of changes?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Brian McCauley

I'll speak narrowly to the tax issue because Susie is probably better to speak to the market issue.

To a large degree, it would likely depend on how the provinces would respond, but certainly it would mean there would be no federal disincentive left in place. It would open the market a bit from that perspective.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

From a tax perspective, I would imagine an open market is a good thing in that if companies have that greater latitude to sell their products into a wider marketplace, their sales go up and our tax revenues go up.

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Brian McCauley

That is one theory. I say that only because the federal excise levy is levied at the manufacturer or at the winery level. That would be true if there were additional consumption induced of domestically grown product, which could be a consequence of the open market.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

How about on the agriculture side, in the interaction with the industry and what you're hearing from them?

12:05 p.m.

Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Susie Miller

Regarding the potential impact if this law were changed regarding spirits and beer, we have not done the analysis to date. What we have learned from undertaking the analysis on the wine side is that, generally speaking, it assists many small and medium-sized businesses, because the large businesses already have their distribution systems in place, and it's the smaller and medium-sized companies that are more likely to interact directly with the consumer.

It's a big assumption, but based on our assessment on the wine, we would expect to find positive benefits for that particular group.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I'm not surprised to hear it, because that's what we heard in committee from the proponents of those industries.