Agriculture Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Dr. Watson, I want to thank you and recognize as well that you were the Canadian nominee that year for the World Veterinary Association's award, and throughout all the countries in the world, you were chosen as one of the six recipients as an animal welfare expert. We thank you very much for your contributions. I'm proud to have you as a Canadian veterinary representative here and around the world.

[Dr. Jonas Watson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Carr.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

Mr. Serrien, you said there was a major difference between your way of transporting animals and transporting animals for slaughter. You spoke of training in particular.

Could you shed some light on the issue, first by telling us what training means, and then by explaining the major differences?

In your opinion, shouldn't the transportation of animals for slaughter be adapted or at least improved?

[Kenneth Serrien]

I'm going to answer in English, because unfortunately my French is not up to standard.

A lot of the show and companion horses that are being transported are handled and have been trained and halter broken for these purposes.

When we have, for example, yearlings, which are horses less than 720 days old, their training and their handling are minimal. In those cases, it's easier to fly them in a group and load them in a group into an air stall so they feel comfortable and safe. It's also a lot better for them, in terms of bringing stress and anxiety down. That's why we ship really, really young horses.

Slaughter horses or horses for fattening are, in our opinion, a different breed. They are a different kind of animal. Their training is also minimal, zero. It's very hard for them to be halter broken because of their posture and their structure. Maybe it would be easier to talk to the people who have the feedlots, but in our opinion it's very, very hard to start training these horses and to start getting them handled and handling them the way we do with companion and sport horses.

That's the difference. I hope that answers your question.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you for these clarifications, Mr. Serrien.

Mr. Wilson, we often hear about transportation conditions. This argument is often used to advocate for the ban on transporting horses for slaughter.

Witnesses repeatedly referred to significant differences between transporting companion or competition animals and transporting an animal for slaughter.

What do you think of these statements?

Are the transportation conditions that different, and wouldn't this be a way to address the issue rather than simply banning air transportation completely?

[Kevin Wilson]

Thank you for the question.

Currently the international standards we abide by are what define transporting horses. Whether they are competition horses or horses going for end use to be fattened in Japan, we pride ourselves on exceeding these standards. You can argue that stress levels are higher or lower among competition horses or fattening horses, but I don't believe there's any metric by which anyone can adequately measure that with a pair of binoculars.

The other point I would like to make is that there have been some claims that these horses are cramped. One witness testified today that there are 40 of these horses loaded on a trailer. Current transport regulations require that we transport horses only on single-deck trailers. No trailer can put 40 of our export horses on it. They don't make one.

Information has been presented that these horses are bandaged because they are safer having bandages on. One of the reasons these horses have bandages on is that they have steel horseshoes on, so it's to protect them from hitting each other.

Currently I don't believe there's a large difference in it. Can we improve and do better? Yes, we always can. We as an industry are continually looking to improve.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Wilson.

In your statement, you referred to pregnant mares' urine production. You're the first witness to talk about this.

Could you explain what this is all about? Could this be a side effect of the bill that hasn't been analyzed?

[Kevin Wilson]

Thank you for the question.

The PMU industry is a vital industry in western Canada. It used to be a vital industry in eastern Canada. In fact, my family had over 400 pregnant mares tied up in the barn.

During a mare's gestation, when she is pregnant, she excretes lot of estrogen in her urine. That urine is then collected and transported through different pharmaceutical companies, and it goes into making hormone replacement therapy for women suffering the debilitating side effects of menopause. It is also an estrogen source for birth control pills, and it is used in a lot of other pharmaceutical products.

The mare has to be pregnant in order to collect this hormone. Canada has some of the best standards of animal care within the PMU industry. We pride ourselves on that. We have other companies looking to come to Canada to secure sources of pregnant mares' urine to refine this hormone. If we lose this market for these foals, the reality is these foals are still going to be bred. They are still going to be raised on these farms for this industry. These growers are under contract.

That is why I think this bill.... We and our members market several of these horses annually.

Bill, do you have anything you would like to add?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Unfortunately, we're out of time, but, Bill, give a very quick comment if you have one.

[William Shore, President, The Canadian Equine Exporters Association]

Yes, I do. I would like talk about the breeders' situation when this bill is in place.

The 2023-born foals are still at the breeders. The contracts with the Japanese state that they will be shipped between April 2025 and March 2026. These mares are going to foal again in April, May and June of this year. The contracts for them to go to Japan are from April 2026 to March 2027. There has been no talk about a transition period for these breeders. Their livelihood and their farms are dependent on this industry, and currently there is no other market for these foals, mares or—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Shore.

I apologize. We're at time, and I have to be able to move on to Mr. MacGregor. Certainly there has been talk, not in the bill but in conversation, about what compensation could look like.

I'll go to Mr. MacGregor. He might have questions on that.

Mr. MacGregor, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's not particularly on that, but I do have a question for Mr. Wilson.

I know that Japan is our primary market for live horse exports. Are there any other countries that accept them as well?

[William Shore]

There has been one shipment to Korea as well.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Just one, okay.

Japan is absolutely 99%.

[William Shore]

Yes, that's correct.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

It's my understanding that they prefer live horses because they are served as a delicacy that is served raw. It's a fairly high-end dish. Am I correct in that?

[William Shore]

It is a high-end dish, as are wagyu steak and other high-end products.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Do they prefer live horses because of the freshness factor?

[William Shore]

They prefer them live. The freshness of the meat is the major factor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Canada does have processing capacity for horses, doesn't it? I think we have roughly two plants. Am I correct?

[William Shore]

There are two currently that are federally licensed. There's one in Alberta, and I've talked to ownership there. That's in the process of being sold so it will not be eliminated.

Ever since Bill C-355 has been discussed, we have tried to contact many, many smaller plants throughout Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan to discuss with them the possibility of processing these horses for overseas export, and 100% of the time we have been turned down, so there is no—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I have a question very much related to that. Do we export horse meat, like horse carcasses, as well, and what, roughly, is the comparison of live horses versus horse meat? Do you have a rough breakdown on the percentages?

[William Shore]

It's nowhere near as much through the carcass.

I don't have those figures in front of me, but I would suggest possibly somewhere in the neighbourhood of 300 horses would be processed to go via meat.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay, so that market does exist beyond Canada's borders.