Agriculture Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lawson, would these amendments allow you to adjust your views on the bill or not? I would appreciate a quick answer.

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

As I think we've stated, there are certainly ways in which this bill could be improved. As it is currently written, there are challenges with it that mean we would not be able to support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Demianowicz, I'd like to turn to you.

Of course, this bill is not the first attempt of Parliament to address this issue. Since 2010, three NDP private members’ bills have tried to do the same. I want to give a shout-out to former MP Alex Atamanenko, who represented British Columbia Southern Interior. He was very passionate about this issue and certainly fought for it.

Earlier in this Parliament, I tabled a petition, e-4190, and over 36,000 Canadians signed it. You mentioned in your opening remarks that seven out of 10 Canadians support this initiative. If I were to judge the flood of emails coming in to my inbox as the agriculture critic, it's definitely a top issue for many people.

How has your organization kept tally on the level of support for this initiative? Has it remained consistent over the years, after other private members' bills and so on? I'm wondering if you can provide the committee with a bit more of a deep dive into those figures.

[Ewa Demianowicz]

I would just like to point out that the NDP private members' bills of Alex Atamanenko were addressing the horse slaughter issue. We are here about the live exports. The question is really about welfare during the transport.

I've been involved with HSI Canada for the past decade. I've been working on this issue practically full time for a decade. There is tremendous support, of course, on horse slaughter, but even more, I would say, on live exports of horses for slaughter. The polls that I was citing came out at the beginning of the week, so they are very recent. Yes, an overwhelming majority of Canadians all across the country are in support of these exports. We are not surprised, because we hear from them on a daily basis. We have engagement and interactions with the public, and we're here to represent all of these Canadians who are in support of this bill.

I hope that answers your question.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

There you go, Mr. Chair. It came in under.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Well, I'm going to just take 30 seconds. I have a quick question for Dr. Dodman.

I'll tell you what I struggle with, Dr. Dodman. It's hearing some of the compelling testimony on either side. Is there an ability, in your view, to transport horses by air at all? Is there an ethical way to do that?

[Dr. Nicholas Dodman]

Yes. Sport horses and show horses are transported by air on a regular basis.

I'm sure they have some acclimatization experience and travel with a trainer or other equine experts. I'm sure they travel in special containers. I'm sure there might be two together, but not four together with no partitions.

There might be some ways it could be improved, but one of the big problems is the length of the journey. Lots of the horses flying from the United States to Europe, or flying around in the United States, have journeys of only five or six hours, which is reasonable, especially if they're in those accommodations that are appropriate for a horse, and with proper supervision.

With what's happening at the moment—flying from Canada to Japan with these four horses in the same partition for this hugely long period of time, with no water and no food—and you addressed each one of these issues one by one, it would probably be uneconomical financially and not a deal for the $20-million-a-year industry.

However, that would be the way that it could be made acceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. I appreciate that insight.

Colleagues, thank you. Let me, on your behalf, thank all of the witnesses for being here today and for taking the time to give their testimony to us.

We are going to suspend briefly and turn to our next panel of witnesses. We are going to be quick, because we want to make sure we can get this done by one o'clock.

I'll suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Colleagues, we're going to get started, because we're pressed for time. I would like the folks who are having conversations to either take those outside or not have them.

Today, from Farm Credit Canada, we have Don Anderson, senior vice-president, credit risk management.

From Humane Canada, we have Barbara Cartwright, who is the chief executive officer and is here in person. It's great to see you, Ms. Cartwright.

We also have Brittany Semeniuk, animal welfare specialist, from the Winnipeg Humane Society.

From the Montreal SPCA, we have Erin Martellani, campaign manager for animal advocacy.

Colleagues, you know the deal. We're going to do five minutes for opening remarks from each organization and then go over to questions.

I'm going to start with Farm Credit Canada for up to five minutes.

It's over to you.

[Don Anderson, Senior Vice-President, Credit Risk Management, Farm Credit Canada]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

As noted, I am very pleased to join here today. I'm Don Anderson, senior vice-president of credit risk management at Farm Credit Canada.

As many of you are aware, FCC is a federal Crown corporation, and we're fully committed to the Canadian agriculture and the overall food industry. Through our time, we've served over 102,000 customers across the country from our 103 offices. We provide a full range of financial services, advisory services, software management and knowledge sharing to the entire industry.

FCC provides broad support to customers in the equine industry. As of December 31, 2023, we had approximately 536 customers within our portfolio that had, at that time, a total amount owing to Farm Credit Canada of $198.9 million.

I am fully open and happy to answer questions that you have during this period to the best of my ability. I appreciate your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Thank you for being here today.

From Humane Canada, we have Ms. Cartwright. It's over to you for up to five minutes.

[Barbara Cartwright, Chief Executive Officer, Humane Canada]

We represent humane societies and SPCAs in every province and two territories and in very rural and very urban locations, many of which enforce animal protection laws. We are proud to share our time with our members—Winnipeg Humane Society and Montreal SPCA.

Humane Canada works collaboratively with industry to improve the standards of care for farmed animals. Farmed animals must be protected from physical and psychological suffering from birth to death.

A humane death is not only when animals are killed in such a manner that they die instantly without panic or pain or are rendered unconscious until death occurs; it is also when the handling methods, equipment and facilities used leading up to that moment are such that they reduce the levels of fear, anxiety and pain in the animals and these are kept to an absolute minimum prior to and during killing. Of course, this includes transportation to slaughter.

The methods in the process of shipping live horses via air for slaughter overseas raise many animal welfare concerns on which the committee has already received ample testimony. This means that the practice cannot meet the above-mentioned requirements for a humane death and therefore should be banned.

I want to take my brief time today to speak to the testimony that the committee has heard regarding the current standards and systems in place.

Canada's codes of practice have been referred to, even today, as some of the highest animal welfare standards. As the founder of these codes more than 40 years ago, as well as a founder of the national farm animal welfare council that required our participation in all codes, including equine, I would say more accurately that the codes are the result of years of negotiation between many different parties, all with conflicting views and interests, and that the codes often represent the minimum, not the highest, standards of care. In addition, they are not legally binding across most of the country.

With regard to transport regulations, while recent amendments do mark a vast improvement, they do not reflect the gold standard of animal welfare, nor were they developed in a vacuum, free from external pressures. We saw a 2017 ATIP request reveal that concerns from the meat industry about negative economic impacts pressured the CFIA to shift from an animal welfare science position, in which shorter transport times of between eight to 12 hours were ideal for the animals, to an economic decision of significantly increasing allowable transport times for most livestock species.

Humane Canada is not calling for a ban on horsemeat or an end to the industry in Canada. We do not support the assertion that this bill is the slippery slope that's going to try to end the meat industry, as some over-emotional arguments claim.

More than 800 million animals are slaughtered every year in Canada. We're discussing approximately 25 horses whose welfare is at risk because they are uniquely shipped by air to the other side of the world to be killed, which does not ensure that the animals' fear, anxiety and pain are kept to an absolute minimum prior to that killing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

We'll now turn to the Montreal SPCA.

[Barbara Cartwright]

I'm sorry, Mr. Blois. It goes over to Winnipeg Humane Society.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm sorry. You have about a minute and a half left.

We'll go over to the Winnipeg Humane Society.

[Brittany Semeniuk, Animal Welfare Specialist, Winnipeg Humane Society, Humane Canada]

Thank you.

I speak today as a veterinary technologist and as an animal welfare specialist for the Winnipeg Humane Society.

This committee has heard much testimony on research published globally in veterinary literature about horses experiencing negative states of welfare. Testimony has been presented by expert professionals on the different shipping methods when moving valuable performance horses. Some witnesses have claimed that the live horse export industry should have its regulations enhanced in lieu of total prohibition. I suggest that such an approach will not work. Reducing health and welfare risks associated with shipping large quantities of horses overseas would require a total overhaul of the transportation process to an extent that the industry would cease to be feasible or profitable.

Such costly improvements would include enhanced padding and head clearance for horses, multiple veterinarian attendants per shipment, reduced numbers of horses per shipment, intervention capabilities, alternate handling techniques during loading processes and auditory distress mitigation. The slippery slope argument that putting an end to live horse exports will lead to ending other animal agricultural industries is nothing more than repetitive fearmongering.

What we are doing is a great disservice to the Canadian public—who elect politicians to office—by ignoring contemporary societal values towards animals in the law-making process, especially in relation to draft horses, which were relied upon so heavily to build the infrastructure of what is now known as Canada.

Decisions, including position statements established by the CVMA, are influenced as much by societal values and ethics as they are by scientific inquiry. We also see this with animal agricultural industries that revise standard practices based not solely on science but on demands from a more humane and conscientious public. It is not the only factor, but it is a factor that horses do hold a different status for Canadian constituents when compared to other livestock.

Thank you. I am happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, and I am sorry for the confusion.

We'll now head to the Montreal SPCA, please.

[Erin Martellani, Campaign Manager, Animal Advocacy, Montreal SPCA]

Thank you very much for giving the Montreal SPCA, Canada's very first animal welfare organization, the opportunity to speak to this very important issue today.

The SPCA is the most active and influential animal protection organization in Quebec, and it strongly opposes the export of horses from Canada for slaughter. We fully support Bill C‑355, as do 18,000 of our supporters in Quebec who have also told their MPs they support this legislative initiative.

Attitudes have changed in Quebec in recent years. Nowadays, horses are considered noble animals, true companions. As of February 10, 2024, they're protected by brand-new provincial safety and welfare regulations that also apply to pets. The practice we're discussing today goes against Quebec society's progressive values and severely undermines progress Quebec has made with respect to horses and other animals. Ever since 2015, the Quebec Civil Code has recognized animals as sentient beings. It's high time that the practices approved by the federal government reflect the values of Quebeckers in this regard.

During the study of this bill, a number of MPs and committee members have asked whether the solution to this practice might be to improve regulations governing the conditions under which horses are transported, rather than simply putting an end to the export of horses for slaughter. However, scientific evidence indicates that, due to the physiological peculiarities that make horses very ill-suited to this type of transport, they endure anxiety, pain, fear, exhaustion, thirst, hunger and panic during their long journey by cargo plane from Canada to Japan. As a result, the SPCA believes that it's impossible to export them for slaughter without causing them pain. The practice is irremediable and must be banned.

Some MPs have criticized the fact that Bill C‑355 targets only horses. It's completely understandable that they're also concerned about the conditions under which all animals are transported. However, supporting a ban on the export of horses for slaughter does not preclude these members calling on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency to improve current regulations for all animals transported domestically and exported abroad. We would welcome such an initiative, of course. In fact, a previous witness, animal transport auditor Jennifer Woods, even conceded that current transportation standards could be improved. However, Bill C‑355 gives us an opportunity in the near future to at least help these horses, thousands of which continue to suffer during arduous trips overseas.

I was supposed to be accompanied today by Dr. Louis Kamus, a veterinarian who has unfortunately been called to perform surgery, but I was told that I could read part of his speech. He is an equine veterinarian and assistant professor of equine surgery in the faculty of veterinary medicine at the Université de Montréal and has been working with horses for over 10 years.

In his speech, he said that he was initially surprised because he wasn't aware of the Canadian industry that exports horses to Asia for slaughter. He raised the matter with several equine veterinary colleagues in Quebec, both in the field and at the hospital, and many of them expressed surprise and outrage when they found out about the export of live horses for slaughter.

Horses are unique among domestic animals. They are fragile creatures of habit that adapt poorly to changes in their environment and in their herd. Any change in their routine causes stress that impacts their health and welfare in various ways. Dr. Kamus and his colleagues often observe this phenomenon in horses that are transported to and hospitalized at the faculty, and they always take it into account in their treatment plans. In addition, a large proportion of hospital emergencies, such as digestive problems and trauma, are associated with stress.

Because of these characteristics, horses are ill-suited for transportation, especially long-distance transportation. They need to be trained and have special requirements to ensure proper transport. Long-distance transportation has also been associated with the development of severe dehydration, pleuropneumonia, and colic. That's why sport horses are subjected to shorter journeys with rest periods under conditions that are completely different from those under which horses for slaughter are currently transported. No effort is spared to mitigate the impact of transportation on sport horses.

Overseas transport of live horses for slaughter from Canadian farms causes significant stress and impacts horses' health and welfare. Therefore, it is not ethically possible to continue this practice.

I would be happy to answer any questions the members may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

We're going to do that right away.

I'm going to start with Mr. Steinley. You have up to six minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have some questions for FCC.

Mr. Anderson, you started talking about how much money is out there right now when it comes to the horse industry. Am I correct in saying that there's $198 million outstanding in loans to the horse industry in Canada?

[Don Anderson]

Within FCC's portfolio, that is the correct amount in the entire equine industry that we finance.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Is there any way to take out how much of that would be attributed to people raising horses that are shipped either overseas or even to the United States for meat?

[Don Anderson]

Within our portfolio, we do not track what the sales channels are for our customers, so there's no way that we can break it down to that level.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Would we be able to say that there's a substantial amount of money in loans to people who raise horses for that particular destination?