Evidence of meeting #22 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was centres.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Hanson  Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Lagacé  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management Branch & Chief Financial Officer, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Goldstein  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

As usual, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You'll also notice a QR code on the card that links to a short awareness video.

We need to pass the report of the subcommittee. Did everyone get a copy?

Everyone has a copy. Are there any comments?

I guess I need a motion.

Go ahead, MP Chatel.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac—Kitigan Zibi, QC

I'm happy to move a motion to adopt the report from the subcommittee.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

Now we're going to move into camera. It'll take a few minutes to do that.

We'll take a short break of five minutes, and then we'll come back. Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

I'd like to call the meeting back to order.

Before we start, I want to make two announcements.

Regarding the recommendations for the beef and pork study, I'd like to set the submission deadline for Friday the 13th at 4 p.m., end of day. Are folks okay with that?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

Next, the deadline for submissions to the witness list for the science in Canadian agriculture and the closure of research centres study is 4 p.m. today. That's for the secondary list. Is everyone fine with that?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

Okay. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 10, 2026, the committee is commencing its study of science in Canadian agriculture and the closure of research centres.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us and welcome them here today. They are Deputy Minister Lawrence Hanson, associate assistant deputy minister Andrew Goldstein and assistant deputy minister Alain Lagacé.

Hello and welcome back, Deputy Minister. We'll start with your five-minute presentation and then open it up for questions.

Lawrence Hanson Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss actions being taken at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada in the context of the results of the comprehensive expenditure review.

I am joined by Andrew Goldstein, our associate assistant deputy minister of science and technology, and Alain Lagacé, our assistant deputy minister of our corporate management branch.

The comprehensive expenditure review was undertaken to restore government spending to sustainable levels by identifying spending efficiencies and focusing on core mandates. As members will be aware, the outcomes of the review process were outlined in budget 2025.

With regard to AAFC specifically, the department was required to reduce our operational spending, programming and science footprint in order to find $154.7 million in savings by 2028-29. To achieve these savings, we are making reductions across the entire department to reflect the objectives of the review, including finding efficiencies and directing available resources to areas with the greatest impact on core objectives.

In messages to departmental staff on January 22 and 23 of this year, I communicated the impacts of these decisions to our workforce and departmental activities. In the two weeks since, our focus has been on communicating directly with our own employees and our partners who will be affected by these decisions.

Although these reductions are, as I noted, taking place across the entire department, we recognize and understand that the decision to wind down some of our research facilities and research farms has been a matter of specific interest and concern.

I'd like to put these closures in a broader context.

The department has an operating budget of roughly $800 million. Our annual expenditures associated with science and research facilities account for about $300 million of that total. Out of that $300 million, $90 million is spent on corporate support, such as maintenance and utilities. This is not money that goes to science and research but rather to utilities, maintenance and other costs associated with maintaining 20 research development centres and 25 satellite centres. Not surprisingly, with the passage of time, these upkeep expenses go up and are accompanied by ongoing capital rust-out.

Faced with this reality, it was determined that it would be a much more efficient use of funds to consolidate science efforts into fewer facilities and prioritize the science efforts that are most core to the department's mandate, rather than diverting more and more resources to operational costs and upkeep over time. As a consequence, we are closing three of our 20 research and development centres—those in Quebec City, Guelph and Lacombe. We will also close four of our satellite farms—those in Scott, Indian Head, Portage la Prairie and Nappan. We are making every effort to support our affected employees through what is admittedly a challenging period.

I want to emphasize that AAFC will remain the largest agricultural science enterprise in the country, and will continue to advance strategic and high-impact science with a focus on crops and horticulture, animal production, food processing, biodiversity and environmental sustainability.

I will point out that these staffing reductions will result in a limited reduction of the actual number of research scientists working at AAFC. We estimate that the number of research scientists who will not remain in their current location or be offered an equivalent position elsewhere will be about 27. That is a little over 7% of our entire team of scientists.

I will also note that at least half of the reductions in the department, overall, are operational efficiencies, not program or science reductions.

We will continue to invest in science and strengthen collaborations with industry, governments, academia and other key stakeholders in Canada and around the world. We will continue to help producers protect their crops and boost their yields through the minor use pesticide program.

We will continue to support food processing and food safety.

We will continue to be Canada's largest agricultural research organization. With 17 research centres and with research farmland across the country, every province will continue to have at least one AAFC research centre, maintaining a strong national footprint while addressing both regional and national priorities.

As well, AAFC's commitment to science excellence and sector partnership has not changed. We will continue to work with provinces, territories, universities, colleges, producers and private sector innovators. We can pool our talents and resources to drive cutting-edge research, science and innovation, to avoid duplication with academia and the private sector, and to gear resources towards science as opposed to operational costs.

The decisions taken, difficult as they have been, do not diminish the department's commitment to supporting a growing agriculture sector through science and innovation. Rather, they ensure that resources are directed where they can have the greatest impact in that mission. In every province across Canada, we will maintain and grow our collaborations with industry, academia and international networks.

We will continue to look for new opportunities to leverage our shared resources, here at home and around the world. At Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, we will continue to work with producers, partners and our diverse stakeholders to chart the best way forward for the sector.

Again, I want to thank the chair for this opportunity. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer your questions.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Michael Coteau

Thank you very much.

Mr. Scheer has the floor first, for six minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am here to fight for the Indian Head research farm, a facility that employs approximately 30 people full time and many more workers during summer months or part time. There's clearly no industry group that thinks it is a good idea to shut this facility down. That has become overwhelmingly apparent.

I'd like to get right into some detailed questions.

Can you tell me what the department claims it will save by shutting down the Indian Head research farm?

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

Yes, I have the number.

Alain, I don't know if you have it immediately in front of you. I know I have it in another document of our operational costs. If you can just allow me one moment to bring that up....

Alain, do you have it handy?

Alain Lagacé Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management Branch & Chief Financial Officer, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Yes, the total operating costs last year for Indian Head were $3.8 million.

However, I just want to caution that there's some relocation of science. There are some costs that we will continue to incur, because, as you probably know, the divestiture of such a site will take years. That $3.8 million is the total operating costs.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Did you look at any kind of assessment for how potentially upgrading key pieces of equipment or infrastructure at the site could result in year-over-year savings? For example, if you replace a heating system, you don't have to repair it as often. Was any kind of assessment done at the centre to look for ways of reducing operating costs without closing down the farm?

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

With regard to the member's question, even if we were to reduce our operating costs at that specific site, there would still be savings to be gained from seeking to do further consolidation, including moving some of this work to Saskatoon.

I will note that there were two research scientists on site at Indian Head, and one of them will, in fact, be moving to our R and D centre in Saskatoon.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Was that a no? There was no assessment done to see if costs could have been reduced while maintaining the overall viability of the site.

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

I don't think the overall viability of the site becomes a matter of—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

If the answer is no—

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

—whether you can further invest. The answer is that we have decided that the greatest level of savings and efficiency could come from consolidating our efforts elsewhere.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

It says in the briefing note that some of the research will be moved to, for example, Outlook, Saskatchewan. Are you aware of the difference in soil conditions between Indian Head and Outlook, Saskatchewan?

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

We are aware that there are some variations in soil from place to place, but we are convinced that we can continue our science capacity even with slight variations in soil conditions.

I would also note that we fund science done by others, which can continue to be focused in specific areas.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

It's not just slight variances. We're talking about major differences in the quality of soil, the pH balance and especially the moisture. Indian Head is in a very special place in Saskatchewan. It is class one soil, and it consistently outperforms other regions on a consistent basis in terms of moisture.

The reason why that's important is that when you were doing multi-year studies on seed varieties, yields and responses to various conditions, having that kind of stability, knowing that you won't have to worry about a drought in year three or an early frost in year five...that's the type of benefit that having a site like Indian Head has.

I have spoken to so many people. Nobody believes that you can replicate those types of conditions over multi-year periods at Outlook. Was there any kind of assessment in terms of the scientific integrity that will be lost by relocating research from Indian Head to a place like Outlook?

12:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Lawrence Hanson

I'll ask my colleague, Andrew, if he wants to add anything, but I will say that we have sought to find these savings in a way that is most consistent with maximizing our science capacity and having it remain in place. Also, where there are specific issues, we will be continuing to work with our partners and others to do research.

Andrew, if you have anything to add, please....

Andrew Goldstein Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Every site does offer its unique properties, but we will still maintain four different sites across Saskatchewan. We believe that can generate sufficient diversity to continue our programs.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

I only have a couple of minutes left so I have to move very quickly.

It looks like there will have to be capital investments at places like Outlook to create more storage facilities. Have you done any kind of assessment of the extra costs that you'll incur by this relocation? Because if we're talking about a savings of $3.8 million and if you have to spend millions more just to move to another location, there is not much savings, at the end of the day, to the taxpayer.