Evidence of meeting #4 for Subcommittee on the Automotive Industry in Canada in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chrysler.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Reid Bigland  President and Chief Executive Officer, Chrysler Canada Inc.
Thomas LaSorda  Vice Chairman and President, Chrysler LLC
Percy Ostroff  Partner, Doucet McBride LLP
Dennis DesRosiers  President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.
Peter Frise  Chief Executive Officer and Scientific Director, AUTO21 Network of Centres of Excellence, Auto21 Inc.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I just want to make the point about recapturing the market. There is a bigger debate on how to do that. But I do want to get to a subject I haven't had a chance to ask anyone.

I had a chance to be in New Zealand briefly for a couple of days, and they bring in a lot of their used autos from Japan. What type of percentage do Canadians and North Americans get from overseas used vehicles coming into our markets out of Asia and Europe? How many used vehicles from North America end up in Japan? I think Japan even has a restriction that after seven years they're supposed to take a vehicle off the road, and then they export it.

8:45 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

The amount of used vehicle trade internationally among Canada-U.S.-Mexico and overseas is so small you can't calculate it by two or three percentage points. It's thousands of units. It just doesn't happen on used.

Where the Japan used vehicle trade comes in is that it goes into all those ASEAN countries. It is the direct result of their scrappage program. There are no vehicles on the roads in Japan over eight years old. Most Canadians would love to have an eight-year-old Camry. So that vehicle is still valid. They inspect it off the road in Japan, which keeps the demand going and the environment clean, and they export it to Australia, New Zealand, and the ASEAN countries. That's where it comes from.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I know it's not a huge number, but does it make sense in terms of a policy to allow used vehicles into our market that are environmentally more significant than a new vehicle in North America, wherever it's built? And there are safety issues as well. We're not putting used vehicles into the Japanese market. Does it make sense to continue that policy?

8:45 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

I would cut that off in a heartbeat through a rigorous inspection program.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay.

8:50 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

A vehicle has to meet the regulatory criteria of today or you wouldn't get it in.

8:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Could you provide the committee with some numbers in the future about how many used vehicles are trading around the world? I haven't seen too much work done on this.

8:50 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

There is very little work done on it globally. You can go into the Statistics Canada used vehicle statistics; they do track it. The last time I looked, it was fewer than 20,000 units.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Mr. DesRosiers and Mr. Masse.

Ms. Hall Findlay.

8:50 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We keep hearing two streams in this conversation, most of it dealing with the auto sector and what is needed. We've heard this for the last few sessions. Mr. DesRosiers has been talking about the ultimate health of the auto sector with a very positive long-term outlook. But what seems to be missing to a great extent, and one of the main reasons we're here, is this: is it right for the government to be helping two specific companies?

If we accept that Canadians and Americans will continue to buy cars, which sounds right but perhaps in reduced quantities, if we keep hearing about the need for competitiveness and productivity.... I will note the interesting challenge when you talk about whether we want U.S.-owned companies. Mr. Frise asked if we wanted North American or foreign. We're in Canada, and I will note that the companies are foreign-owned because they are American-owned. The global auto sector has been evolving, and from a Canadian perspective we understand the need and opportunities to help the auto sector, but the fundamental question is--and I would really like to ask Mr. Ostroff for some commentary on this too--is it appropriate? Should the government at this point be providing a significant amount of money to two companies as opposed to looking at the auto sector as a whole?

Mr. DesRosiers, perhaps you could comment on that please.

8:50 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

If you want GM and Chrysler in Canada, you have no choice.

8:50 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

But with respect, that's not my question. You can have all sorts of reasons for wanting GM and Chrysler, but if we pull back from the names and identities of those companies in terms of demand, in terms of jobs, in terms of assembly jobs as opposed to parts jobs, is it appropriate to choose because you happen to want those two companies? Or is the government's job to encourage the auto sector as a whole?

8:50 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

If you go into my paper, you'll see that I actually paint both of those scenarios. You can build a very strong case for why you would want to help these two companies. But you also have a lot of complicating factors. Most of those complicating factors are very difficult to get your head around and to actually become comfortable with.

Is it fair? That's a subjective view. I could work that on both sides. I have supported aid. I think at some point you need to get a trade lawyer involved, and maybe we have to help here, because there are likely WTO challenges coming in Europe, with their assistance. All of this may be a huge spanner in the works, because it all may be illegal. We don't know, but it all could be illegal.

8:50 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Right, and that's going a little bit off my question. I really want to know, given the circumstance, given your questions about whether all of these different factors...I mean, you're pretty negative about a lot of the factors. I guess the question is, from your perspective and your knowledge of the industry, if Chrysler and GM came to you right now and asked you for a combined $10 billion, given their burn rates, given their market share, all of that, would you actually give it to them?

I know it's putting you on the spot, but that's the question our government is having to ask itself.

8:50 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

Your government and the U.S. government are forcing them to go through a very vigorous evaluation process. If they answer those questions and can prove proper answers to those questions, absolutely I would do it.

8:55 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay.

Just so that I have the opportunity, I'd like to ask Mr. Ostroff a question.

There has been a lot of talk in all of this about either the two companies' being bailed out or our losing 500,000 jobs. People talk about dealers, people talk about the supply chain. Can you just talk briefly about what happens to things in a restructuring, in a CCAA? I'm not asking this specifically with regard to the auto sector, so I'm not putting you on the spot, but just in general terms. In a CCAA, what happens with supply contracts, assets, in an environment where there are competitors?

8:55 p.m.

Partner, Doucet McBride LLP

Percy Ostroff

I'll try to answer you in as general a way as I can.

What effectively happens is that certain contracts can be abolished or terminated in a CCAA restructuring and certain of them can't. It largely depends on the circumstances and what types of contracts you're talking about. Some contracts are more sacrosanct than others, among them collective bargaining agreements. Things like commercial leases of property tend to be easier to disclaim or terminate in a restructuring. It very much depends on the type of contract.

From a broader perspective, though, what happens in a CCAA, or what's intended to happen in a pristine restructuring, is that the company--in a streamlined version, but the same company with the same employment force--goes forward having shed some debt that it couldn't deal with. Of course, the exception is always the rule. What you get as you try to do the restructuring is an attempt at cherry-picking the contracts that will work and the contracts that won't. Sometimes contracts even get put on the table that maybe the company didn't like to begin with, five years before, but there wasn't an opportunity until now. Now they do, because the restructuring opens everything up to negotiation.

But in its pure form, the company should go forward with as much of the workforce as possible. What happens in the real world, though, is that that's a business choice, and the due diligence people, when they're doing the lending and when they're doing the restructuring, will sharpen their pencils and say, “This is where we have to cut.” And you never know where the cuts are going to be without looking at the individual cases--on the workforce side or on the debt side.

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Mr. Ostroff.

I believe Mr. Frise had a brief comment, and then we'll go to Mr. Watson.

8:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Scientific Director, AUTO21 Network of Centres of Excellence, Auto21 Inc.

Dr. Peter Frise

I just want to make sure that we're clear, Ms. Hall Findlay, that when I talked about the Canadian companies we work with, I wasn't speaking about the automakers and making any differentiation between one group and the other. I was talking about the parts companies. In the main, the parts companies with which we work certainly all have Canadian operations, but they are also Canadian-headquartered, Canadian-owned companies.

8:55 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I appreciate the clarification. Thank you.

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Madam Hall Findlay.

Thank you, Mr. Frise.

Mr. Watson.

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DesRosiers, thank you for dumbing down your presentation so I can understand it. I'm still trying to remove the knife from my back.

Thank you to all of our panellists, obviously, for being here tonight. It's always a pleasure.

I do want to direct some questions at Mr. DesRosiers.

You talk about a long-term trend with respect to the Detroit three's declining market share in North America. I'm going to ask a very obvious question, one I have my own opinions about. Were the Detroit three companies late to restructure?

8:55 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

Yes, I talked about the 15-year-old denial.

8:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

In your opinion, when was it realistic for them to know that they should have started restructuring sooner?

8:55 p.m.

President, DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc.

Dennis DesRosiers

I believe it was in 2002. Rick Wagoner stood up at a podium and he became really serious. That, in my mind, was the defining moment. I would have liked to see that perhaps a decade earlier. He would have known; he should have known.