Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on Dec. 13th, 2010

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

And Mr. Brown, thank you very much for appearing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Del Mastro.

We'll now move to the second round of questioning.

Mr. Garneau, five minutes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm trying to understand the issue here. My impression is that nobody would have any problems with teachers going and getting whatever is the best material, especially with more and more material being available. I don't think anybody has any objections to teachers going and getting the best material for teaching purposes.

My sense is that the issue here ultimately is about money. That's my impression. I don't think there's any law that prevents anybody from going and getting any material they want. At the moment, they may have to pay for it, but nobody is saying you can't have it. Copyright doesn't say you can't have it. Copyright says you can have it if you pay for it.

Am I understanding the issue here? Is it ultimately an issue related to money? On the one hand, there are those who feel they're not being paid, but on the other hand, there is a strained school board system. Is that how you see it?

[John Staple]

From our perspective, it's clarity. It's ensuring that the act clarifies what teachers and students are able to do with material that is publicly available to them on the Internet, and also what they can do with respect to accessing print material under fair dealing provisions that are clearly within the scope of the act.

Now, if there are fees that are relative to that, which are negotiated with Copyright Canada, for photocopying purposes and so on, that's a secondary issue. That's an aside.

So from our perspective, it's the clarity, ensuring that when teachers use materials in a way that would be a normal way to use them for classrooms, they're not breaking copyright.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes, and you gave a good example: how many copies can you make?

[John Staple]

Yes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I'm still not quite there, though, in terms of understanding it. You can make things very clear--things are very clear at the moment--without Bill C-32. They're clear.

But as I understand it--

[John Staple]

They're restrictive.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Well, they're restrictive depending on your point of view. You have to pay for certain materials.

With Bill C-32 there is the proposed exemption of education, which I understand you favour.

[John Staple]

Yes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Okay. But that's an issue, as I understand it, about money rather than about access to materials.

You say it's restrictive, but in which way?

[John Staple]

The Internet amendment applies only to material that is publicly available on the Internet. We're not talking about copyright material. If it's copyrighted, and it's there...we're not talking about that stuff. We understand that if it's copyrighted, you have to pay for it.

We're talking about material that's publicly available on the Internet. Under the copyright legislation, as an individual I can use that in certain ways. But as a teacher I can't use it in certain ways for my class. But it's publicly available. They can all, as individuals, go and get it and use it. But if I, as a teacher, use it in certain ways that are relevant to my role as a teacher in teaching that class, I am violating copyright.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Are you saying that you can't use it...? But what if you were to pay for it? This is what I'm asking.

[John Staple]

But it's not copyrighted: nobody has to pay for it. What I'm saying is that as an individual--

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Well, then, is there an issue here?

[John Staple]

The issue is that if I, as a teacher, made multiple copies of something for a class, I could be violating copyright law. If they all, separately, went and made the same copy, they wouldn't be violating copyright.

There needs to be clarity given in terms of the ability to use the material.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I agree with the clarity part. I'm not quite there on some of the fundamentals.

You indicated 60 pages per student. Can you break that number out for me? I assume that's primary and secondary, on average, per student, per year. Do you have any idea of how many different sources it would be?

[John Staple]

It's six pages a month per student, over all courses.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Is that six different projects?

[John Staple]

No, no, it's just raw numbers: 60 copies per student, per year, over all courses. That's what the study found.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I'm just trying to get an idea of how many sources this comes from. The 60 pages could be from one source or it could be from 30 sources. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Do you have those numbers?

[John Staple]

No, I don't, I just have the total numbers. I know there are 60 pages per student, and it works out to six pages a month per student, but I don't know where they're from, no.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Turning now to education, a lot of people have suggested that maybe we need to tighten up what “education” means.

Would you, from your federation, be prepared to propose to us what you understand to be education as it's conceived here? When we talk about an education exemption, can you give us your input?

I don't mean to put you on the spot here. Perhaps you could send something in to say what you understand to be education, because different people have said, “Well, what does education mean?”

[John Staple]

Yes, we can certainly do that.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

That would be much appreciated.