Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on April 16th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Thank you.

Mr. Bagnell, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Minister, for coming.

As you know, we're supportive of the bill. In fact, I'd be happy to do clause-by-clause right now if we had unanimous consent.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, please do.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I do have a question.

You said we had support right across the country--you just said that--and I'd like to ask the department what surveys, in researching this bill, they have done to ask people across the country about their views on this bill.

[Julie Besner]

I missed the beginning part of your question. What support exists across the country?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes. What surveys have you done, and what mechanisms did you use to determine support or non-support for the bill?

[Julie Besner]

We had an FPT working group studying firearms issues in the development stage of this bill, so it was largely discussed with provincial attorneys and with general representatives across the country. They communicated with their local police agencies to assess their views. Those discussions took place in that kind of an FPT forum.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So it was just attorneys general and police basically?

[Julie Besner]

That's correct.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Has the department had any other feedback, for or against, from citizens, or from any other group?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I indicated that in terms of correspondence and people--but with respect to Monsieur Ménard and Madame Freeman, that's not exactly scientific. It certainly confirms what we believe: that there is widespread support among Canadians. In terms of the provincial attorneys general and their consultation, I think they've got it right on this, that people within their jurisdictions are very supportive of this.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

If this bill had come into place a year ago, roughly how many people over the last year would have been in the position of being before a bail hearing, under the crimes that have been listed?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We can tell you, Mr. Bagnell, how many individuals. Regarding the first part of it, the reverse onus for the eight charges that we're adding, there were 475 cases in Canada.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That was last year?

[Julie Besner]

That would have been in, I believe, 2002-03.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay, that's good.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Regarding the reverse onus for indictable offences involving firearms, there are approximately 8,500 cases. If those were committed while the accused was under a prohibition order, then we're talking about 35,000 individuals who are under a prohibition order.

[Julie Besner]

To add one point with respect to those two statistics, it's not possible to provide an interface between them. In other words, what is known is the number of offences with respect to firearms or other weapons and how many prohibition orders are enforced at a particular time, but not those two combined together. I would just clarify that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Minister, one of the things sort of touched on, from both a question perspective and in response, was the building up of this, the follow-through of this legislation, versus where we are with reverse onus on other issues, such as certain drug trafficking and smuggling offences, which I guess are pretty much based on the same rationale as this legislation. A couple of others include legislation on organized crime in 1997 and the 2001.... The former anti-terrorist act actually had reverse onus.

I wonder if you can speak a little about the basis upon which this legislation is built. Obviously there's a precursor to the direction we're taking. It certainly isn't something new to this government or this country.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think that's a very good point. In the Criminal Code, subsection 515(6) sets out in some detail when a reverse onus would apply. I indicated, in reply to one of the earlier questions, that for some offences that are heard before a Superior Court judge there is a reversal. If you're charged with murder in this country, there is a reverse onus right now. So I believe that what we are doing is perfectly consistent with what's already in the Criminal Code, and it's perfectly consistent with the decisions and analyses of the Supreme Court of Canada. So I think we're on solid ground on both cases.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

As was pointed out by the Bloc in terms of statistics, is it normal in this country, when it comes to dealing with matters of justice, that we only rely on statistics when we determine laws that deal with criminals, that deal with our justice act?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

In many ways it would be a challenge if you couldn't make changes to the Criminal Code unless you could statistically prove people's behaviour one way or another. Our challenge is to update the Criminal Code to make it more responsive and basically to listen to what Canadians are telling us. For instance, I would never be able to come up with statistics to tell you how many Canadians will become disappointed with the Canadian justice system and start to give up on it, in their belief that it may not protect them.

I certainly know what happens in other countries when people lose confidence in the criminal justice system. We can see very clearly what happens to society. But I don't think we'll ever have statistics to say how many thousands or millions of Canadians will lose confidence in the criminal justice system if we don't go ahead with changes to the Criminal Code. We have to trust in the collective wisdom of Canadians, as interpreted by members of Parliament, attorneys general, or other people who have a vital concern and interest in our criminal justice system, that they've got it right. There is no doubt in my mind that, just like other legislation, we've got it right and Canadians want this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, I'd like to ask you a question. I'm not often on justice committees; it's the first time in 13 years. For certain specific offences, the Criminal Code now provides that the accused must remain in custody pending trial. The accused may, however, be released if he or she can show cause that detention is not justified in the circumstances.

For these specific offences, do you or the department have any statistics or percentages on people accused who were released while waiting for their trials?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Are you asking how many people on each offence get detained?