Environment Committee on June 8th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I will call the meeting to order. We are now in public.

Joining us today is Mr. Alan Latourelle, president and CEO of Parks Canada; Ron Hallman, who is director general of National Parks; and Kevin McNamee, who is the director of parks establishment. I welcome all three to the committee.

A point of order, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here to talk about Gwaii Haanas.

Chair, just procedurally, we have approximately 35 minutes. What kind of timeframe are you going to be putting on each of us?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'm going to suggest that we follow our routine motions, which is that we welcome the witnesses to make an opening comment, and then we'll do our rounds. Right now that's based on a first round of seven minutes. If you feel five-minute rounds would be more appropriate, I'm open to the committee's suggestion on it because of time limitations.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay. With that, we have a procedure that we have to respect.

Mr. Latourelle, if you could bring forward your opening comments, I'd appreciate it.

[Alan Latourelle, Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency]

First, thank you very much for being here today. It's a great pleasure and an honour as the CEO of Parks Canada to be here to speak about the legislation or the order in council that's been submitted to your committee.

This has been a long overdue process, from a Parks Canada perspective. We've been working with the Haida Nation for close to two decades now: first in terms of establishing the Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve, and for clearly more than 15 years in trying to establish together a national marine conservation area. This is the result of a collaboration between the federal and provincial governments initially, in terms of the federal-provincial agreement that established the area. We've been working with the Haida Nation and others--the fishing industry, the aboriginal community, and also with the environmental groups and local communities.

From a perspective of what you are asked to consider, it is an expansion of the current protected areas. The national park reserve is 1,500 square kilometres. What we have is a proposed expansion of 3,500 square kilometres, which is the marine component.

It will be subject to cooperative management with the Haida Nation. So we have an agreement among Parks Canada, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and also with the Haida Nation in terms of the overall management of the marine protected area.

In closing, I would say that it is the first national marine conservation area that we bring in the legislative process, following the passing of the bill in 2002. It is a great achievement for our organization, but also for our partnership with the Haida community.

Today, on this International Oceans Day, it is an honour for us to come here to discuss with you and answer your questions on this success by the entire Parks Canada team.

I have with me Mr. Kevin McNamee, Director of Parks Establishment, who has been working closely on that file for the last few years, inside as well as outside the organization, and Mr. Ron Hallman, Director General of National Parks whose contribution was also exceptional.

I shall now be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. Latourelle.

We'll go to the first seven-minute round with Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Mr. Latourelle, thanks for coming, and, gentlemen, thanks for being here.

Mr. Latourelle, as a matter of public record, this is the first time that members of the committee on this side of the House, as the official opposition, have heard anything about this agreement. It was revealed to us very late Friday afternoon. We had no advance notice, no text, no words. We had no explanation, no briefing. None of the official opposition, and to my knowledge no MP on this committee--I can't speak for everyone--was consulted. We hear of massive and detailed consultations going on with thousands of individuals. This process has never been put on the work agenda of this committee. So you'll forgive me if I'm going to bring a certain tone to the questions I ask you; it's not because of your good work or your team's good work.

Can I ask you, first of all, sir, when were you notified about coming here to testify today?

[Alan Latourelle]

I was notified this afternoon.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

At what time was that?

[Alan Latourelle]

Maybe an hour ago.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So after this committee had begun at 3:30 or before?

[Alan Latourelle]

I'm not sure.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Was it 3:30, three o'clock? When were you asked to make yourself available to testify here today?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I have a point of order, Chair.

I sent an e-mail, through staff, about half an hour after this meeting had started, realizing that there was a request for information. It happened after this meeting started.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay. That's not a point of order, but it is information.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So I understand then at about four o'clock.

[Alan Latourelle]

That sounds reasonable.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. I have a couple of substantive questions I would like to ask you, Mr. Latourelle. Canada signed on to the Convention on Biological Diversity. We're now negotiating at the conference of the parties the next iteration of the Convention on Biological Diversity. Can you tell me and tell Canadians whether the two plans, the interim management plan and the zoning plan, are in full conformity with our commitments under the CBD and in anticipated conformity with the new conditions coming under the new and improved CBD that's being negotiated as we speak?

[Alan Latourelle]

What I can tell you is that in terms of the commitment, in terms of moving forward, and in terms of protected areas for the marine programs, for example, internationally, we are in line; we're moving forward. We have several marine conservation areas that we are currently working on. This is one of them. We also have the Lancaster Sound national marine conservation area proposal. We have the Strait of Georgia national marine conservation area proposal. So as we look at the conservation objectives that are in the interim management plan, those are conservation objectives that have been agreed to and worked on by the Haida Nation. For example, the 3% conservation area part of the proposal is something on which we have worked hand in hand with the Haida Nation in coming up with this interim management plan. So this is an interim management plan supported by the Haida Nation and Parks Canada.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I understand that Canada is moving forward on certain fronts to try to make progress on marine protected areas, and I understand that negotiations have occurred with the Haida people, but you can't answer the question of whether this is in conformity with the CBD standards, can you?

[Alan Latourelle]

Different countries are at different levels in terms of standards. I think if you look at Australia, because of their history, they've had several more years in terms of the marine program, so their amount of conservation percentage is greater.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I don't mean percentage standards. I don't mean amount of land or marine protected areas set aside; I mean in conformity with the Convention on Biological Diversity standards on diversity protection, on management plans, on eco-services, on evaluation. There are 25 to 30 categories under the CBD. Can anybody tell me today whether this agreement is in conformity and builds not only on the existing CBD, but anticipates what's coming from the negotiations internationally today?

We have no plan from the government on the CBD that's being negotiated. In fact, we have evidence that the government is actually trying to slow it down. We have no plan in terms of what our government's position is on the Convention on Biological Diversity, which is being negotiated as we go forward. So can you tell me whether or not these two--particularly these--plans, which deal with the interim management plan and the zoning plan, are in full conformity with the Convention on Biological Diversity?

[Kevin McNamee, Director, Parks Establishment, Parks Canada Agency]

Mr. McGuinty, I would add a couple of things in terms of international standards and what we are doing with this national marine conservation area.

First of all, the international community looks at these kinds of protected areas to look at to what degree are you protecting them. With this proposal, under the law there would be no further oil exploration or development in this area for all time.

The second thing is that at the international level there is a lot of emphasis on establishing marine protected areas for the purpose of representing different types of ecosystems. Representation is one of the core elements of the Convention on Biological Diversity and other international commitments. Gwaii Haanas will not only represent one of 29 marine regions; it will represent two. So we, through one marine protected area, are picking up two representative areas, the Queen Charlotte Sound and Hecate Strait.

The third thing is that a lot of these conventions place emphasis on governments working hand in hand with aboriginal people and first nations, and to that degree, this one really illustrates that in particular. We have two agreements with the Haida. one for the land and one for the marine. So there are those different elements that we pick up.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I understand the need to work with indigenous peoples worldwide. I know that's an inherent part of the architecture of the CBD, but I have to say you haven't answered my questions on the CBD. I don't think you're in a position to do so. I don't fault you for it, because I don't think you're experts in comparing this agreement with those requirements.

Let me move on to theme two. Time is very short.

Every NGO I managed to reach last night about this agreement—not seeing any text before an hour and 10 minutes ago—said this is going to be a problem situation for Canada unless there is a continuing financial commitment from the federal government. How much money, to your knowledge, is the federal government going to continue dedicating to this establishment, this park, this region, this marine protected area? Where does the agreement stipulate how much money, over what period of time?