Evidence of meeting #13 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gordon W. Walker  Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission
Robert Lambe  Executive Secretary, Great Lakes Fishery Commission
Joe Farwell  Chief Administrative Officer, Grand River Conservation Authority
April Adams-Phillips  Representative, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne and Chiefs of Ontario
Jim Ransom  Director, Tehotiiennawakon, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, and Representative, Chiefs of Ontario

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

I'd like to call our meeting to order.

This is meeting number 13 of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

Today we have appearing before us from the International Joint Commission, Mr. Gordon Walker, acting chair of the Canadian section; and appearing by video conference from Washington, D.C., from the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, Mr. Robert Lambe, executive secretary.

This portion of the committee is scheduled to run until 4:30. We're going to proceed with opening statements, first of all from Mr. Gordon Walker.

Mr. Walker, welcome. We welcome your opening 10-minute statement.

3:30 p.m.

Gordon W. Walker Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Gordon Walker, acting chair of the Canadian section of the International Joint Commission. Two of our staff people are here today, our secretary, Camille Mageau, and Nick Heisler, senior adviser. With your permission, they will answer any questions I can't, which are mostly technical and scientific, I'm sure.

In keeping with the focus of the hearings, I will speak to water quality issues from our unique perspective, and particularly our mandate under the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement.

As many of you will know, the commission is an independent treaty-based organization. Commissioners do not represent the positions of their respective governments. They take an oath on appointment to work in the interests of the people of the two countries. My comments are therefore those of the commission, determined by consensus by past and current commissioners.

The IJC was established by the Boundary Waters Treaty of 1909 as a permanent independent international organization that prevents and resolves water disputes along and across the entire Canada-United States border. In that context of water quality under the treaty, our role is to investigate, alert, report, monitor, and ultimately advise governments.

Under the treaty, there is complete equality between the six commissioners, three from Canada and three from the United States. Even though the U.S. has 10 times the population, there is complete equality.

With respect to the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, there have been some substantial accomplishments. In the 1970s, in 1970 itself, the IJC issued a series of reports on pollution in the Great Lakes, in response to a 1964 request by the governments. The findings of these studies led the two countries to sign the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement in 1972.

This agreement, which was most recently updated in 2012 and entered into force in Canada in 2013, commits the governments to restore the physical, chemical, and biological integrity of the lakes. It's considered to be one of the most enduring and successful environmental agreements in the world. The agreement assigns the IJC roles in monitoring progress, providing advice, and engaging the public and alerting the governments to emerging issues.

With that background, I want to outline our assessment of water quality and what the IJC sees as priorities for the Great Lakes.

There are, as you know, five great lakes, each could fill today's hearings several times over in the allotted time, but I want to focus on some of the problem areas, particularly Lake Erie. In the Great Lakes, one of the most significant and recent priorities for the IJC has been to try and help, and address the crisis facing Lake Erie. The work meets all of your study criteria. It focuses on an area of environmental concern, it reviews efforts under way now, and it recommends best practices.

Government can take action to correct problems. As I noted, in the 1970s Lake Erie was in great distress. The IJC in its reports to Canada and the United States called for action, and they led to that agreement. Within 10 years of the signing of the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement both countries had upgraded and expanded municipal sewage treatment plants, and the phosphorus concentrations in household detergents had been reduced.

By the mid 1980s, Lake Erie phosphorus loadings were reduced by more than half from the 1970s levels, and many of the problems associated with eutrophication had been reduced or eliminated. Around the world it was hailed as a success story, but now, once again, Lake Erie is at risk.

Following the record algal bloom in Lake Erie that covered almost the entire western basin of Lake Erie—some 5,000 square kilometres—in 2011 the commission launched its major effort into the Lake Erie ecosystem priority, also known as LEEP. To address the challenge dozens of scientists from both countries were brought together to examine scientific, socio-economic, and regulatory dimensions of the issues in both countries as part of a comprehensive approach.

The result is a report, which will be released to the public on Thursday this week. It is entitled “A Balanced Diet for Lake Erie: Reducing Phosphorus Loadings and Harmful Algal Blooms”.

The timing of my appearance is fortuitous, as some of you may have been able to participate in the embargoed LEEP webinar we held for Canadian and American federal legislators earlier today.

I'm going to give you a preview today, as IJC has already forwarded the report to the U.S. and Canadian governments. My apologies go to staff on Thursday. I hope I haven't scooped them too much by making some comments today.

To summarize, the LEEP study found that in most years, total phosphorus loadings into Lake Erie have been below the target of 11,000 metric tons per year established under the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement in the 1980s.

The question is, if that's the case—if it's below the level of 11,000 metric tonnes—why is Lake Erie in trouble? The answer is that phosphorus loads to Lake Erie are not distributed equally across the basin. Between 2003 and 2011, the average loads in the western basin were 64%, while the central and eastern basins of Lake Erie received just 26% and 11% respectively. Loads within each basin also may vary among tributaries for both total phosphorus and dissolved reactive phosphorus, with the largest contributions coming from the Maumee, the Sandusky, and Cuyahoga Rivers in the United States, and the Detroit River through Lake St. Clair to Lake Erie.

Phosphorus enrichment is a binational issue. It is not just from those rivers that I've identified, which happen to be mostly in the United States, but is across the board—across the lake itself and its tributaries. We in Canada contribute as well, but quite a bit less, I might say, than the Detroit, the Maumee, and the Sandusky Rivers do. I'm thinking of the Grand River into Lake Erie and the Thames River into Lake St. Clair. The monitoring initiated through Environment Canada's $16 million Great Lakes nutrient initiative along the north shore of Lake Erie and in the Thames River will complement existing and more intensive monitoring efforts in the Ontario Grand River.

The story, though, gets more interesting and complicated. Recall that the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement originally focused on total phosphorus as a measurement by which Lake Erie eutrophication was to be managed, and that those low targets have generally been met. So this is not the same as the 1970s problem. The real problem, recent research has shown, is that the proportion of dissolved reactive phosphorus—the form of total phosphorus that is highly bioavailable and stimulates algal growth—is increasing.

The LEEP report focuses on the Maumee River watershed in the United States, in Ohio, as the highest priority for remedial action. It recommends a targeted 41% reduction in dissolved reactive phosphorus loadings for the spring period, as compared with the 2007 through 2012 average.

To help achieve this goal, the commission recommends that the States of Michigan and Ohio formally list the waters of western Lake Erie as impaired under the U.S. Clean Water Act. That would trigger development of the total maximum daily load or nutrient reduction plan overseen by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. A complementary plan using both regulatory and non-regulatory measures could also be used to reduce loadings from Ontario watersheds.

To address the complex challenge of nutrient pollution from diffuse agricultural operations, the IJC recommends that governments throughout the watershed refocus agri-environmental management programs to explicitly address dissolved reactive phosphorus.

The commission also specifically recommends that the Province of Ontario and all the U.S. Great Lakes states ban the application of manure, biosolids, and commercial fertilizer containing phosphorus on frozen ground or ground that is covered by snow.

The IJC recommends that all governments work with municipalities to accelerate the use of green infrastructure, such as rain gardens and green walls, in urban stormwater management. In addition, the IJC recommends that the Province of Ontario and the U.S. States of Ohio and Pennsylvania prohibit the sale and use of phosphorus fertilizers for lawn care except in certain circumstances.

Because wetlands both support wildlife and filter pollutants, the IJC recommends that governments, working with non-government partners, commit to a goal of a 10% or 1,000-acre increase in coastal wetland areas in the western basin of Lake Erie by the year 2030. The IJC further recommends enhancing monitoring networks throughout the Lake Erie basin, including the establishment of a monitoring system at the outlet of the Detroit River that measures phosphorus and other critical nutrient parameters.

The IJC offers its analysis and recommendations in its LEEP report in a spirit of cooperation, recognizing that today's challenges to Lake Erie's health are formidable, could be aggravated by climate change for sure, and require the leadership and guidance of the United States and Canadian governments and collaboration by all sectors of society. The IJC believes this teamwork will occur, as citizens and governments care deeply about this lake.

Through such cooperation, the IJC is confident that the recovery of Lake Erie can again become a globally known success story. It is timely to have dwelt on this one subject, Lake Erie, given today's briefings of your colleagues and Thursday's public release. There are, however, many aspects that I could dwell on, but time will not afford me that luxury at this moment during these opening remarks—climate change being one that could take a long time.

But I will mention some aspects. I understand that Environment Canada discussed the areas of concern with you as a committee two weeks ago, so I'm not going to belabour the importance that the IJC places on cleaning up those areas of concern, other than to note that the commission's role in areas of concern is substantial.

It is important to first point out that the governments, along with many public and private partners and agencies, are ultimately responsible for cleanup of hot spots, these “areas of concern”, as they're known. Under the 2012 agreement, the government will consult with the commission if they want to designate new areas of concern. The remedial action plans produced for each site are made available to the commission for review, and governments solicit review and comment from the commission, amongst other agencies, prior to delisting an AOC or designating an area of recovery.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Mr. Walker, we're well beyond your 10 minutes. I'm going to suggest that the committee members quickly read the last two paragraphs. We want to move to our witness as well from Washington D.C.

I thank you for your comments. Thank you especially for bringing them in written form, because that will help us all to refer back to them.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Gordon W. Walker

It's an appropriate place for me to stop.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

I thought the rest of it was a bit of a summary, so I hope I'm not taking too much licence here. Thank you.

We're going to move now to Mr. Robert Lambe for his opening statements.

Mr. Lambe, welcome.

3:40 p.m.

Robert Lambe Executive Secretary, Great Lakes Fishery Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me today. I thank you for letting me do this via video. Being from Canada and working in Michigan, I would have preferred an opportunity to get back home but the schedule didn't permit it, so thank you for allowing me to do this.

I missed a lot of Commissioner Walker's comments because of the video problems, so hopefully that won't plague my few minutes here.

I'll start with an opening statement, as you suggested. I'm not going to start with some of the superlatives that I normally use to describe the Great Lakes. I'm sure you'll hear a lot of those over the course of the coming weeks. But I will point out a couple of facts. It represents 5% of North America's water. It is home to 30% of Canada's entire population. One that you may not hear otherwise is that it houses a $7 billion trade. These are just some of the things that speak to the significance of the Great Lakes.

They are great. However, urban things like urban development, industrialization, globalization, fishing, habitat alterations have all left an imprint on the basin, and in some cases, a considerable legacy that current and future generations will have to address. So while the lakes are great and large enough for abundant resources, they are indeed fragile and require protection. Canada and the United States have for a long time cooperated; they have a cooperative history on the Great Lakes. For instance, in 1954, Canada and the U.S. agreed to the Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries, which is really what created my organization, the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, as a two-way cooperation for the benefit of...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...to combat the most destructive of invasive species, the sea lamprey.

The Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, first signed in 1972, and updated as recently as 2012, is the very mechanism used to help Canada and the U.S. work together to ensure the physical, chemical, and biological integrity of the Great Lakes Basin.

It is those two things, the Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries and the water quality agreement, that I wanted to focus my comments on today.

First, the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement—I believe Commissioner Walker spoke to that in his opening statement. The water quality agreement, as we mentioned, was revised in 2012 to bring greater attention to the basin's ongoing and emerging issues. I believe the revised agreement in 2012, in my estimation, offers an unprecedented opportunity for the commissions to work with other agencies, governments, first nations, and stakeholders to connect fishery issues to overall Great Lakes priorities. In particular, the Great Lakes Fishery Commission is deeply engaged in a number of annexes addressing such things as lake-wide management, invasive species, habitat, and science.

I just want to spend a few minutes talking about the role that the Great Lakes Fishery Commission is playing on those annexes, which really define the water quality agreement.

First, on annex 2, it focuses on lake-wide management, with a goal of coordinated binational assessment and management of...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...which, due to their nature, are best addressed on a lake-specific basis. Under the Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries, as I mentioned before, my commission is responsible for facilitating...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...arrangements among the fishery management jurisdictions of the Great Lakes Basin. It also went to a non-binding agreement called a joint strategic plan on Great Lakes fisheries. Under the plan the agencies come together to develop, work, and implement fish community objectives, which are shared fishery management goals and environmental objectives that really define the objectives.

Traditionally, and unfortunately, fisheries managers and water quality experts have not worked together as closely as they could have. Annex 2, however, presents a tremendous opportunity for fishery managers to link their objectives to the lake-wide management plan. As such, the Great Lakes Fishery Commission is working to provide an active link between the strategic plan signatories and members of annex 2.

Moving on to annex 6, its focus is on aquatic invasive species, which is our major concern from a water quality perspective. It focuses on invasive species with a goal of preventing new introductions, managing existing invasive species, and conducting scientific risk assessments to improve the understanding of those things. Simply put, invasive species must be addressed.

Annex 6 is particularly promising in that it calls for major efforts to detect new invaders early and to respond quickly upon their discovery. It calls for a ballast water discharge program, whereby Canada and the United States would have either identical or at least harmonized ballast water standards sufficient to protect the Great Lakes ecosystem.

It envisions the immediate implementation of proactive, binational programs to prevent new introductions of invasive species like Asian carp, and it commits the nations to scientific understanding of the risk invasive species represent so that prevention, control, and rapid response measures could be supported.

Great Lakes Fishery Commission knows much about invasive species because, after all, we are charged with sea lamprey control, and I'll discuss that briefly in a minute. The commission sees annex 6 as a fantastic opportunity for both nations to make tremendous progress in mitigating the considerable threats that invasive species pose.

The commission has long been involved in invasive species policy and sees annex 6 as a tremendous opportunity for great collaboration and action. By integrating invasive species into the water quality agreement and by demanding swift and aggressive action, the commission, other government agencies, and stakeholders throughout the region have the chance to make real and lasting progress in this area. So we're quite committed to annex 6.

Annex 7 focuses on preventing further loss of critical habitat and native species that contribute so much to the overall integrity of the Great Lakes. The link between quality habitat and thriving fisheries is, of course, strong. Without spawning habitat, for instance, self-sustaining fish populations and the billions of dollars in economic benefit they provide would not be possible. Annex 7 is critical in that it establishes tight timeframes and affords the development and implementation of lake-wide strategies to prevent habitat loss and aid in the restoration of native species.

Annex 10 seeks to establish efficiencies and effectiveness in Great Lakes science. The Great Lakes Fishery Commission has always believed that science is essential to manage the resources effectively and to justify the expenditures of public resources. Not only will science indicate how, why, and where to expend resources, it will also inform about progress in achieving objectives. One really important point about annex 10 is that it commits Canada and the U.S. to the development of and adherence to science-based indicators of success. That informs about the health of the Great Lakes and helps direct policies.

Under the Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries, the commission is charged with facilitating the generation of fisheries science. So indeed since the commission was created in 1956, it's led the way in identifying science priorities and native species recovery. To that extent annex 10 really provides the commission with great opportunities to connect its resource priorities with those of the larger priorities of water quality agreement from a water quality perspective.

I'm going to conclude by speaking briefly to sea lamprey because it does speak to invasive species issues in a large way. Sea lamprey is a tremendous threat to the sustainability of the Great Lakes fishery. Sea lamprey is without question the most destructive of the invasive species that we've ever faced. It's a non-native species, has no predators, and attaches itself to fish using its large suction cup mouth. A typical sea lamprey will consume about 20 kilograms of fish during its lifetime. Sea lamprey caused unprecedented ecological and economic harm to the Great Lakes. The Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries, 1954, called upon the commission to implement a border-blind, sea lamprey control program. The commission works with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and agencies in the U.S. to deliver sea lamprey control.

The program has been extremely successful. Over the years, we've been able to reduce the population by 90% of what it was in its problematic days of the early 1960s. Now we have a thriving fishery that was once destroyed. The fishery at present is worth $7 billion. So the news is good. We have the technology to control it. But as we've seen a couple of times in the past, when we relaxed control these predators do respond and rebound quickly and start to have the same devastating effect on the fishery.

Canadian currently contributes $8 million to this program, the U.S. in excess of $20 million. Even with the equitable distribution of the formula that was developed for funding this program, Canada still falls short. In fiscal year 2014, it should be contributing about $11 million; it's contributing $8 million. A report last year by the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans lauded the sea lamprey control program and recommended that it be fully funded. So I hope that the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development will follow suit and join the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans in recognizing the significance of funding this program fully.

In the interest of time, Mr. Chair, I'll stop there and try to answer any questions. Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you very much, Mr. Lambe, for your commitment to being with us by video conference.

We're going to move now to the questioning rounds. We'll start off with Mr. Carrie and Mr. Sopuck for a seven-minute round.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I'd like to get right to the questions.

The first is for Mr. Lambe.

I was wondering if you could comment on the 2013 Great Lakes summit, the outcomes that followed, and the importance of that.

3:55 p.m.

Executive Secretary, Great Lakes Fishery Commission

Robert Lambe

You're talking about the governors' and premiers' summit?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Executive Secretary, Great Lakes Fishery Commission

Robert Lambe

I thought it was a great summit overall. The one thing that we were particularly pleased with was the resolution to establish a mutual aid agreement amongst the provinces and the states. The Council of Great Lakes Governors actually came to the commission to establish that. We have worked collaboratively with the eight states and the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and the federal governments as well as those with tribal responsibilities. I believe the agreement will be signed in April when they meet again.

So it will be an important construct of an important framework for all the agencies that have responsibilities under that very complex governance model that we have for Great Lakes resource management. It will be one of the first constructs we've had that really help those agencies and entities identify how they can collaborate, share resources, identify when an emergency is imminent, and be able to respond more quickly with particular emphasis on important invasive species that we're trying to stay ahead of. That was one very significant outcome.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

I think with the presentations today we see how important the cooperation is.

My next question would be to Mr. Walker, but of course, Mr. Lambe, you could comment as well.

The reality is our government and the U.S amended the Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement in 2012.

I was wondering, Mr. Walker, could you start and tell the committee what this says about the importance being placed on the Great Lakes remediation, because you brought up the whole issue of phosphorous and the algal blooms. I was wondering if you could give your insight to the committee on that issue.

3:55 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Gordon W. Walker

Certainly, Mr. Carrie, the renewed agreement, the updated agreement, which in many respects has a number of changes, reflects a much more modern approach to be taken. The IJC has a number of responsibilities that flow from the actual Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, particularly the annexes: the areas of concern, the lake-wide management, discharge from vessels, and science generally. There are special responsibilities for the IJC that flow from that.

I think what it reflects is a determination on the part of the two governments to cause these pristine lakes to be as pristine as possible. They were once the most magnificent lakes, and there has been some deterioration as a result of public involvement with them and the growth of population around them, and the fact that 44 million people I think live within the basin and make use of Great Lakes water. We all probably.... Well, at least I come from southwestern Ontario and some others here do as well, and you've been drinking that water for a long time.

It's very important to us, and I think both governments have recognized that. Really, beginning in 1972 with the agreement, and with the number of revisions that were made to reflect the modern day, I think it's a testimony to both governments and indeed to the eight states that border the Great Lakes and the two provinces that are involved with the Great Lakes, Ontario particularly. I think it shows a very strong commitment on their part to make these lakes the best possible thing they can be.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Mr. Sopuck, you have three minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thanks.

Mr. Lambe, from the Great Lakes Fishery Commission's standpoint in terms of invasive fish species, the rainbow trout, the coho salmon, and the chinook salmon are all introduced species, but they are not captured under the rubric of invasive species. They seem to have settled into that ecosystem very nicely and have formed the basis of very important fisheries. Those species, probably, you would consider to be welcome additions to the Great Lakes. Is that a fair assessment?

4 p.m.

Executive Secretary, Great Lakes Fishery Commission

Robert Lambe

Yes. It's a very good point that you make. Those are probably the three best examples of species that technically would be called invasive; however, we have found a balance with them in the ecosystem. They've become prized sport fisheries as well. We have other examples of introductions such as alewives, for example, that have become fisheries as well, but unlike the ones you mention, alewives continue to be problematic, in that they attack the forage base. They just continue to be a nuisance as competitors with our native species.

Those are probably the three exceptions. The invaders we typically have, such as alewives, zebra mussels, the spiny waterflea, and the sea lamprey, are ones that have continued to be our nemeses, because they compete with or attack our native species that are so valuable to the ecosystem.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I agree with that, but I think it's important to have it on the record that there is a distinction between those salmonid species and the rest you named.

Mr. Walker, you talked about how one of the goals of one of the projects was to increase the number of wetland acres to a thousand acres in a certain area. Specifically how do you plan on doing that?

4 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Gordon W. Walker

Well, that's not our job. I think we sort of say that we suggest they put—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

That's the main goal.

4 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

4 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Can you tell me what the mechanism might be?

4 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Gordon W. Walker

This is like putting the ship in the bottle, but it's up to you to put the ship in the bottle. We believe that it's possible to do. In fact, we're very strong on all of the Great Lakes having more wetland acres. We're going to be strong on that in the future. In other areas, we're going to be calling on it, and certainly with Lake Huron and Lake Erie, it's feasible for governments to do that and just to reserve areas and make them better for wetlands.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you for that, Mr. Sopuck, Mr. Carrie, and Mr. Walker.

We'll move now to Mr. Choquette.

4 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who are participating in this meeting by videoconference, directly from Washington.

Mr. Walker, you talked about wetlands, as did Mr. Sopuck. We went on a tour as part of the National Conservation Plan, and wetlands were a very important element of that plan. The organization Ducks Unlimited Canada even asked us to intervene so that wetlands would be added to Budget 2014. Unfortunately, unless I have misread the budget, I see that no financial resources have been committed to wetlands.

Do you think increasing the surface area of wetlands in the Great Lakes Basin is an urgent need?

4 p.m.

Acting Chair, Canadian Section, International Joint Commission

Gordon W. Walker

Wetlands are something of a canary in the mine shaft. The wetlands are able to produce the kinds of water species, the kinds of growing species—flora and fauna—that are important to restore the shoreline and also to restore and replenish the birds, to restore and replenish the animals, to restore and replenish the growing fauna. All of this is extremely important for a good and balanced system. If it doesn't have the balance, the problem can be exacerbated and gets out of whack. When that happens, it presents problems and shows a problem in the entire watershed.

It doesn't affect just the edge of the water. It doesn't affect even just the water. It affects the basin that comes and feeds it entirely, and the basin is very huge. The Great Lakes Basin is bigger than all of Europe put together, so it's a pretty substantial basin.