Evidence of meeting #7 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Cosbey  Chair, Commission on Carbon Competitiveness
V. DeMarco  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Leach  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Christie  Chief Economist, Canadian Energy Regulator
Farrell  Chief Executive Officer, Major Projects Office
Timlin  Vice President, System Operations, Canadian Energy Regulator
Labonté  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Jackson  Director, Major Projects Office
Maher  Professional Leader, Environment, Canadian Energy Regulator

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Welcome to meeting number seven of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format and is public. We have witness testimony for the full two hours.

For those attending in person, please follow the health and safety guidelines for using earpieces, which are written on the cards found on the table.

The committee is resuming its study on the effectiveness, potential improvements and capability of Canada's 2030 emissions reduction plan.

This morning we will be meeting with witnesses from 11 a.m. to 12 p.m. Aaron Cosbey from the Commission on Carbon Competitiveness will be with us virtually.

Good morning, Mr. Cosbey. Do you hear us?

Aaron Cosbey Chair, Commission on Carbon Competitiveness

I do. Thanks.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Mr. Jerry V. DeMarco, commissioner of the environment and sustainable development; Ms. Elsa DaCosta, director; and Ms. Kimberley Leach, principal.

Each witness has five minutes for their opening remarks.

We will start with Commissioner Jerry V. DeMarco for up to five minutes.

Jerry V. DeMarco Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Mr. Chair, we're happy to appear before your committee this morning. I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

With me today are Kimberley Leach and Elsa DaCosta, the principal and the director who have conducted much of the audit work on climate change that we have undertaken in recent years.

Since 1990, Canada has set out many plans, measures and targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but no target has been met. According to Environment and Climate Change Canada, national emissions in 2023 were 694 megatonnes. This is 8.5% lower than in 2005 but 14% higher than in 1990. According to the department's most recent projections, Canada will not deliver on its commitment to reduce emissions by 40% to 45% below 2005 levels by 2030. In addition, these projections have not been updated since the government repealed the consumer carbon price.

While Canada's overall emissions have increased since 1990, some sectors have achieved reductions, with the electricity sector leading the pack. With only five years left to meet the 2030 target, a significant shift toward implementing effective actions is needed in certain sectors, such as oil and gas. The time is now to take stock of existing policies and plans and to consider lessons learned from past efforts.

In November of 2021, I provided to Parliament a report that sets out eight lessons learned from Canada's record on climate change. The report is based on three decades of audits focused on Canada's action and inaction on the enduring climate crisis. Given Canada's disappointing track record in addressing climate change, we urged the government to ensure that its plans and actions work to meet its targets. At the time of our 2021 report, we noted that implementing the measures then in place was expected to yield reductions of 36% by 2030.

To help frame discussions on climate change such as this one, the lessons learned report also sets out critical questions for parliamentarians to consider as levers to prompt action against government commitments. We have provided these in an appendix to this statement today for your reference.

Environment and Climate Change Canada’s first progress report under the Canadian Net‑Zero Emissions Accountability Act, issued in 2023, shows that the gap between anticipated results from current measures and meeting the 2030 target persists. This legislation, if implemented diligently, should help establish the accountability and oversight needed to reduce emissions and meet targets.

Since 2021, our office has examined about 40 of the more than 140 measures identified in the 2030 emissions reduction plan or its progress report. Our most recent report on this topic, tabled last fall, highlighted six common themes from our findings, such as delays in the implementation of measures, unreliable estimates of emission reductions, and a lack of transparency.

In our audit work, we have noted that many experts and international bodies agree that a policy package with a range of measures, such as regulations and carbon pricing, can support deep emission reductions if they are stringent enough and applied widely.

The enduring crisis of climate change looms larger than ever. We are at a crossroads, globally and nationally, and we face difficult decisions on how we deal with a changing climate and what kind of a world we want to leave to future generations.

It is clear that new or enhanced measures are needed to put Canada on track to meet the 2030 emission reduction target. In this context, “on track” means three things. First, there needs to be a plan with concrete measures that add up to meeting or exceeding the target. Second, there needs to be reliable modelling of the reductions the plan is expected to deliver. Third, there needs to be an effective implementation of actions resulting in significant year‑over‑year reductions.

This concludes my opening remarks. We are happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you, Commissioner.

Dear colleagues, I have come up with a tool that can help us during all our meetings. It is very easy to understand. This sign means you have one minute to speak. When I flip this sign over, that means the time is up. This is for all members as well as for our guests, witnesses, etc.

I will now turn the floor over to the next witness.

Mr. Cosbey, I see you find that really funny. I'm happy to see that.

11:10 a.m.

Chair, Commission on Carbon Competitiveness

Aaron Cosbey

I welcome the discipline.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

The floor is yours, Mr. Cosbey. Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Chair, Commission on Carbon Competitiveness

Aaron Cosbey

Thank you, and thanks for the opportunity to be with you today. I wish I were there in person, but I'm coming from the traditional territories of the Sinixt and Ktunaxa peoples in the western Kootenays of British Columbia.

I chair the Commission on Carbon Competitiveness. It's a group of 11 experts drawn from different fields. We're devoted to in-depth thinking about the competitiveness of Canadian industry in the context of a decarbonizing world. I'll be presenting some of the findings contained in our first three reports.

First—as a little side trip—why do we focus on industry? In part, it's because it makes up over 40% of our national emissions, and getting those down is critical to achieving our targets for 2030 and beyond. Also, it's because it is the last frontier in climate policy.

We can see the clear paths ahead for electricity, for transportation and even for buildings, but industry is the last on the docket because it is the toughest. In part, it's tough because these are heavily traded sectors, and we don't want our climate policy simply lowering their competitiveness vis-à-vis the producers in less climate-ambitious countries. That's one pillar of the carbon competitiveness angle.

Another pillar is the fact that the markets of the world and the investors of the world increasingly care about the carbon footprint of traded goods. If we don't successfully decarbonize, we lose markets; we lose jobs. Think of the EU CBAM, an example being followed by other countries, or the 100-plus sustainability standards currently in use or being developed in the global steel sector alone. We see carbon competitiveness not even so much as an environmental preoccupation but as an essential ingredient to Canadian prosperity in the years to come.

I'm going to try to distill three key messages from our research to date, the ones I think most relevant for this committee's deliberations.

First, Canada's industrial pricing systems are critical, but they need serious fixing. Second, in the long run, output-based pricing is going to struggle to protect against leakage and loss of competitiveness, so we need to start thinking now about mechanisms like border carbon adjustment. Third, an industrial carbon price is necessary, but it is not sufficient. It needs to be heavily supported by other policies.

I'll go into a little more depth on those three.

First, modelling from the Canadian Climate Institute shows us—and you've heard this from other witnesses—that the potential mitigation from large-emitter trading systems, like the OBPS, is slated to account for up to almost half of the incremental mitigation out to 2030. However, industrial carbon pricing in Canada is in crisis. The sectoral performance standards—that is, the level above which the carbon price is paid—need to be tightened. More important is that they need to be much better tailored to the different sectors. These standards are supposed to protect against the risk of carbon leakage and competitiveness impacts, and our research shows clearly that those risks are vastly different from sector to sector. The current approach is too burdensome for some sectors, and it provides absolutely no incentives for others. Other improvements are also needed: price transparency, stronger rules on equivalency, price floors or contracts for differences, larger markets, and so on. Our key message is the need to treat different sectors differently.

Second, right now, those sectoral standards are working pretty well to stave off the competitiveness and leakage risks, but in the long run, they are not enough. As firms decarbonize over time, there's going to be a need to keep carefully tightening the standards to keep the credit markets in balance. This is a difficult balancing act. Fear of leakage is going to tempt policy-makers to err on the side of caution, undercutting stringency and incentives. We've already seen this dynamic. As we get closer to net zero, we're going to need other mechanisms to reduce the risk of leakage, like border carbon adjustment similar to the EU CBAM. That kind of an instrument is going to be challenging for Canada to implement—for reasons that include wanting to avoid kicking a hornet's nest south of the border—but we need to begin now to explore the viable policy options.

Finally, an industrial carbon price may be necessary, but it is not sufficient. All sectors face barriers that are going to impede their investment in responding to that price. We need sector-specific enabling policies to make the carbon price work. This is true not just in legacy sectors, like steel and aluminum, but also in the up-and-coming sectors of our future. Think carbon fibre from bitumen; think critical minerals and batteries and so on.

Our most recent report, published with The Transition Accelerator, pushes for a game-changing new Canadian industrial strategy. We need to apply the lessons of successful industrial policy, choosing a small number of sectors or technologies and pushing hard on them. We're not going to get breakthroughs without that kind of active policy support.

To wrap up, achieving Canada's climate targets has to be more than an environmental achievement. It has to also be a nation-building effort that, to use an analogy, sees us skating to where the puck is going and finding success and prosperity in the burgeoning low-carbon markets of the future.

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to questions.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you, Mr. Cosbey, for your opening remarks.

I will commence with Mr. Bexte from the Conservative Party.

You have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to speak.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today. I appreciate it.

Commissioner, at Monday's committee meeting, Dr. Exner-Pirot of the Macdonald-Laurier Institute indicated that the ECCC's modelling of oil and gas production declines under the emissions cap was based on data that was unproven or overly ambitious. It has not played out as expected. The predictive force is unproven.

Given that, and given your own report finding that emissions reduction estimates are often unreliable and not transparent, why is the department still relying on unproven data to guide these climate policies? How do you ensure that ECCC models in the future will be more accurate?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

Thank you for the question.

It has been a source of some frustration for our office in the sense that we've had to recommend and re-recommend, not just in my tenure but with previous commissioners as well, the need for more transparency and more accurate modelling. Why has it been such a tough nut to crack by Environment and Climate Change Canada? I don't know. That would be a good question to ask them when you have them before you as witnesses.

I am in agreement that, to date, the quality of the modelling and the assumptions going into them have not been up to standard, and neither has the degree of transparency with respect to that. I would add that improving the transparency could also lead to more accurate modelling, because other third parties would be able to use the data and run models and do their own work, as is common in scientific fora.

Improving transparency and accuracy is something that we've recommended several times. You would have to ask the department why they are not progressing as far as we'd like and you'd like.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you.

Have you been able to at least establish some error bars on the output of the modelling or establish the uncertainty?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

We don't do that sort of thing, but the department does.

Ms. Leach may be able to expand on that.

Kimberley Leach Principal, Office of the Auditor General

Yes, it is something that we have recommended—that they more transparently report the uncertainty bars, the barriers. It's been a recommendation that we have made, yes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you.

Commissioner, your most recent audit report found that Environment and Climate Change hasn't identified which measures are actually key to meeting the target. Similar concerns were raised in the 2023 report, so this is repeated. They are not improving or changing their behaviour.

How can Canadians have confidence that the plan is on track if we can't say which measures are more effective or not?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

I don't believe Canadians should have confidence that the plan is on track, because the plan is not on track.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

What would the government need to do to get it on track? What are specific examples?

11:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

The three things I mentioned at the closing of my opening statement are what I would formulate as the key elements of being on track. I won't repeat them, but if they do those things, then you would be seeing year-over-year decreases that, if extrapolated, would get us to the 2026 objective, the 2030 target, the 2035 target and the 2050 target, but we haven't been seeing that.

That's on the results side in terms of emissions. On the plan side, we don't even have a plan that adds up to the necessary reductions to get there. It's not a big surprise that we're not seeing the results when we don't even have a plan that adds up.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Could you speculate on the impact of reducing the consumer carbon tax or eliminating the consumer carbon tax and what the impact is on emissions?

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

As I mentioned before this committee in the session last December, the plan as it was then, in ECCC's estimation, added up to only 36% reductions instead of 40% to 45%. We didn't believe that number was accurate. It was something below 36% because of the assumptions and so on that we just spoke about.

Now that they've removed that measure, it's something even lower. It's something in the twenties, likely, but we haven't recalculated yet because we want to see what their projections are. We audit their work. We don't do their work for them.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

You don't replicate the work, but you would estimate it's in that range.

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

We'll audit their work, but they haven't updated their projections since the removal of that measure.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Are they going to? Have they indicated when might you expect them to update that work?

11:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Jerry V. DeMarco

I hope it will be in the progress report that's due under the act. You will have to ask them specifically.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Fair enough.

Your report shows that the department hasn't set clear milestones or timetables for most of the 149 measures. There are just six years left. How can we, as parliamentarians, hold the government to account if there's no clear schedule?