Evidence of meeting #8 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was climate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

R. McKitrick  Professor, As an Individual
Haley  Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada
Matthews  Professor, Concordia University and Interim Director, Future Earth Canada, As an Individual
Wallace  Former Member, National Energy Board, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Good morning colleagues. I hope you enjoyed the break week, and I'll put quotes around the word “break”.

Good morning witnesses. Thank you for joining us.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format and is in public. We have witness testimony for the full two hours.

Those in person, please follow the health and safety guidelines for using earpieces, which are written on the cards found on the table.

The committee is resuming its study on the effectiveness, potential improvements and capability of Canada's 2030 emissions reduction plan.

This morning we are meeting with the following witnesses: Professor Ross R. McKitrick, who is appearing via video conference; and from Efficiency Canada, Mr. Brendan Haley, senior director of policy strategy.

We'll go straight to opening remarks and after that to questioning witnesses.

Each witness will have five minutes for their opening statement.

I have this yellow card, which says, “You have one minute left.” After, it says, “Time is up.” That's when the clock stops ticking.

I'll start with Professor Ross McKitrick.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

Ross R. McKitrick Professor, As an Individual

Thank you.

I hold a Ph.D. in economics from the University of British Columbia. Since 1996 I have been a professor of environmental economics at the University of Guelph. In the early 1990s, I developed and published one of the first computable general equilibrium models of the Canadian economy focused on modelling CO2 emissions and climate policy. Since then, I've published over 100 peer-reviewed academic papers and think tank reports on all aspects of climate change.

During the Chrétien government years, I took part in multimodel assessments of the potential impacts of meeting Canada's Kyoto protocol commitments. In those days, there were multiple published cost estimates from a diverse group of modelling teams, including Finance Canada, Natural Resources Canada and Informetrica. Their work was coordinated by a federal entity, the analysis and modelling group. By contrast, the current government has provided no information regarding the costs of meeting the Paris target. Neither Finance Canada nor NRCan have reconstituted the analysis and modelling group. To my knowledge, there are no published official cost estimates for the federal emissions reduction plan, or ERP. The ERP itself simply waives away the cost issue with vague promises of economic benefits from implementing the plan.

I have published quantitative estimates of the costs of the ERP, or at least those elements that the government specified in enough detail to model. For this work, I developed a new and highly detailed computable GE model of the Canadian economy, which I have published in the peer-reviewed Canadian Journal of Economics. I estimate that the plan will get Canadian greenhouse gas emissions down by a little over halfway to the 2030 target, but at a cost of about 6% of Canada's gross domestic product relative to the base case. Note that the economy continues to grow, but at a slower rate.

The carbon price is the cheapest and most effective component of the ERP. I estimate that by 2030, it would have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by about 18% compared with 2019 levels, and it would have reduced GDP growth by only about 0.1% per year. The clean fuel regulation cuts twice as much off the growth rate as the carbon tax and only reduces emissions a third as much, while the remaining regulatory components, such as tightened building energy efficiency codes, the EV mandate and so forth, are three times as costly as the carbon tax while being only about one-eighth as effective at reducing emissions.

As you all know, the first thing Mr. Carney did after getting elected was to eliminate the consumer carbon tax. Whatever emission reduction policies are retained between now and 2030 will be costlier and less effective.

Rather than go into further details about macromodelling results, I would like to turn to a simplified version of something called the “Kaya identity”, which breaks down annual CO2 emissions into three components—the emissions intensity of GDP, or emissions per dollar of output; real GDP per capita; and population. It shows that, to a close approximation, the annual per cent change in CO2 emissions growth is the sum of the annual per cent changes in emissions intensity, income and population.

In a report for the Fraser Institute in 2024, I showed how these three metrics have changed since 2005 and what the outlook is through 2030. In a figure accompanying my remarks, I have updated the numbers from the original sources to 2024. Canada's CO2 emissions changed very little, falling by less than 3% over the past 25 years. On our current trajectory, we are nowhere near meeting either the 2026 or the 2030 target.

Emissions intensity declined by about 40% since 2005. For 20 years it has been falling by about 2% per year. It does not exhibit any apparent sensitivity to government policy. Instead, it is mainly driven by improvements in energy efficiency, which depend on long-term technological change. Real income per capita rose by about 19% over the past 25 years, which is a worrisome trend if your goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but fortunately, government policy succeeded in stopping its growth after 2022. There is little prospect that Canadians' real income will rise again in the foreseeable future. Finally, population growth has accelerated to about 3% annually, three times its historical rate.

Remaining committed to the 2030 Paris target will require an emissions cut of 36% from 2024 levels, so about 6% per year. If population growth goes back to 1% annually and emissions intensity continues to decline at 2% annually, all we require is for the government to ensure that real income per capita declines in Canada by about 5% annually for the rest of the decade. While I believe that outcome is within the capability of the present government, I do not recommend it.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you very much.

We will start the questioning with the Conservative Party and Ms. Anstey for six minutes.

An hon. member

There's a second witness.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

I'm sorry. I guess I needed more rest on my week off. We'll give you an extra couple of seconds for that little error.

Mr. Brendan Haley, the floor is yours for five minutes.

Thank you.

Brendan Haley Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Thank you.

Given the topic of the committee, I first want to say that improving energy efficiency reduces greenhouse gas emissions. A Dunsky energy and climate consultants study estimated it could contribute 25% to 35% of Canada's 2030 goals. A study of energy efficiency's potential by the International Energy Agency showed that it could contribute 40% to Canada's energy needs in 2050 and make a similar percentage contribution to a net-zero reduction goal.

What I most want to talk to you about today is all of the other benefits of energy efficiency, particularly when it comes to a more productive and self-reliant economy. Saving energy can do the same thing as building a power plant, and it often does it at a lower cost. For example, Hydro-Québec recently published that it would cost about 4¢ to save a kilowatt hour of electricity versus supply-side costs of 13¢.

The Prime Minister's mandate letter calls for nation-building projects, and the discussion so far is focused on more physical infrastructure, like pipelines and transmission lines. I want to give you five reasons why I think adding energy efficiency to Canada's portfolio of nation-building projects would be a good idea.

First, it directly improves productivity. It means more GDP for every unit of energy consumed in Canada, with estimates of a four-dollar to seven-dollar increase in GDP for every dollar invested.

Second, it can produce results in one to two years. That's faster than any megaproject I know of. It's also highly adaptable, so unlike a power plant, which has very fixed processes and rigid supply chains, it's possible to save energy across all sectors using multiple technologies. We also use engineering expertise, which can navigate around potential supply chain challenges.

Third, it supports Canadian businesses and innovators. Energy efficiency is a very made-in-Canada energy option. It's found within our borders and in our homes and industries, but when we look at some of the materials used—things like insulation and fresh air equipment—they're largely manufactured in Canada. We have Canadian companies building internationally competitive businesses and innovating in areas like smart thermostats, pump and motor systems, natural refrigerants, carbon sequestering insulation and heat exchange.

With respect to intellectual property, industrial energy efficiency is the largest category of clean technology patenting in Canada. Building energy efficiency is the fourth-largest category. It can also be a very tariff-proof and cost-cutting solution for industry. If we look at energy management systems, for instance, they use data to optimize industrial operations and they can often extend the life of existing equipment. This can prevent a business from having to make an emergency equipment purchase, which is quite attractive right now.

Fourth, energy efficiency is regionally fair. Energy savings are found throughout the country.

Fifth, and finally, energy efficiency directly supports people in their homes and their businesses. One way we can improve energy efficiency is by making the choice, instead of paying for power plants, to pay people to improve their efficiency to use less energy. Again, that's often a lower cost than power plants and transmission lines. I would rather pay people than power plants.

My recommendation is to incorporate energy productivity and affordability into Canada's climate plan by making energy efficiency a nation-building project that can be defined based on two goals. The first is an energy productivity goal to double the pace of efficiency improvement, which would be measured by the amount of energy used to produce a unit of GDP. The second is an affordability goal, which should eliminate energy poverty along with achieving net-zero emissions.

These goals would define a nation-building agenda based on self-reliance, affordability and productivity. It would use local knowledge and local businesses, and it would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Thanks.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you very much.

You were one minute short of the time allocated. That's great. You'll have more time for the members to ask questions.

The floor is yours, Ms. Anstey, for six minutes.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Ross McKitrick, for your opening statement. There was a lot of technical language in there, but there's a point you made at the end of your opening remarks that I think is really important for Canadians to understand.

What I was thinking about as you were talking about your position is a term I like to use in business: the juice is just not worth the squeeze. You pointed out that measures like the emissions cap and others reduce emissions by only about 2.3% annually, yet there's a serious cost to our economy and to household incomes. Can you expand a bit on what that trade-off means for Canadians in their everyday lives?

11:10 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

Yes. That is an important point that I tried to get across: different policies have different cost and effectiveness ratios. Unfortunately, in the way the emissions reduction plan was put together, the government listed I believe 140 different measures. What they didn't do, though, was provide any cost information on those measures. They're leaving Canadians in the dark.

They all sound good on paper, but when we engage in this kind of analysis and modelling work, it does become very clear that some of them are going to end up being extremely costly and largely ineffective at reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We could look at the clean fuel regulations, which would be an example where, if the government that implemented the carbon tax had really understood the logic of the carbon tax, it also would have realized that there was no reason to bring in the clean fuel regulations on top of it.

The economic logic of the carbon tax is such that you don't need these other regulations if you really believe in the measure. What you end up doing is just trying to micromanage businesses and households across the country, and it's a temptation on the part of government.

One of the overarching points that I was trying to make is that this government has really left people in the dark about the costs of what they're proposing. It is nothing like back in the days of Kyoto. As I mentioned, there were three different independent modelling groups in the federal government working on detailed cost information. Nothing like that has happened. We're just asking Canadians to trust government policy proposals, with no information about the impact on household budgets and businesses.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Thank you.

I want to bring this specifically to a sector that's important to me—I talk about it a lot in this committee—and that is the Newfoundland and Labrador offshore, but the western Canadian energy sector also is of huge benefit to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

As an economist, do you think the Liberals, when they develop and propose these policies, have overlooked how Newfoundland and Labrador economically benefits not just from western Canada's energy industry but also from the offshore?

11:15 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

By “offshore”, are you referring to offshore oil and gas?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Yes.

11:15 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

Like the western energy sector, the offshore oil and gas sector in Canada requires a stable investing environment, and it requires commitments on permitting. It also requires an environment that makes it possible to have a predictable profit profile for these significant investments.

By the government moving towards a much more regulation-intensive approach rather than—in this case—a predictable carbon price approach, it's a disservice to the east coast energy sector but really to all kinds of sectors in Canada that have to engage in long-term multidecadal planning intervals.

During the past election, there was a lot of talk about the fact that we just don't see these projects being proposed. Even when the government set up this new office for nation-building projects, they didn't have a lot of interest coming from the private sector. This is because the long-term planning environment in Canada is so unfavourable because of this regulation-intensive approach and also the lack of information from the government about the costs of the regulations.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Yes. I have one quick point on that, then. Would you agree that this emissions cap that is meant to implement these targets risks stalling the economic development and merits a full rethink because it compromises our competitiveness?

11:15 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

Yes, I think that's true.

To single out one sector and say that we're going to put a specific cap on that sector but not other sectors guarantees that whatever you achieve in emissions reduction will be at a higher cost than it otherwise needs to be.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Based on your experience as an economist, do you believe that this proposed emissions cap is more likely to cause harm than benefit?

11:15 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

Yes.

I would quote the government's own figures on its estimated social cost of carbon. In the research I've done, it shows that this element of the regulatory structure is far costlier than the government's own estimate of the benefits.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you.

I'm sorry. Time is up.

Mr. St‑Pierre, you have the floor for six minutes.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Haley, your organization, Efficiency Canada, produces an energy efficiency scorecard of the provinces. Can you provide this committee with the most recent scorecard?

In the latest scorecard, some provinces—such as B.C. or P.E.I.—scored highly, and other provinces—such as Alberta—were on the lower end.

Can you speak briefly about the role of provincial governments in meeting our 2030 targets or how it helps to reduce emissions to meet our targets?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

As you said, we do this every couple of years. We do a very comprehensive analysis of energy efficiency policies at the provincial level. Provinces have the ability to implement building codes. They usually run things called demand-side management programs, which make the decisions, essentially, about whether to build a power plant or a transmission line, or whether it makes more sense to do energy efficiency and save energy instead.

One of the provinces that are high on that scorecard would be, as mentioned, British Columbia. It has a building code that is moving towards net-zero energy in a very predictable timeline. P.E.I. is another example. It is a big leader in low-income energy efficiency programs to tackle energy poverty, and I spoke briefly to that in my remarks. I can definitely provide the committee with that.

The other thing we do is look at those provincial policy systems and then think about how the federal government can play a truly value-added role. A good example of that is a recent federal program for low-income energy efficiency called the Canada greener homes affordability program. We look at what the provinces are doing, what they are not doing and where they could use extra help. They could use extra help in things like deeper energy savings, fuel switching, upgrading and, if they have asbestos or mould, dealing with those issues because an energy efficiency program at the utility level often cannot deal with that.

I think that's a good example of the federal government being able to play a value-added role and being able to do things that the provincial level can't.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I have a quick follow-up question.

Your organization also provided a sign-on letter to the federal government about the greener homes loan program. Can you provide a copy of that letter to this committee? Can you also speak to the importance of this letter or the Canada greener homes loan program?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

Thanks. I'm happy to provide a copy of that letter.

The Canada greener homes loan program was a loan that provided zero-interest loans. It was the main way for middle-income households to improve their energy efficiency and improve their greenhouse gas emissions reductions. As I said, there's this low-income program, which deals with specific barriers, but if you're middle income, a zero-interest loan works quite well.

Unfortunately, that program was shut down, or the intake was closed on October 1. The letter that you're mentioning was a letter written months before that, saying that this is a good program to recapitalize, especially because the start-stop nature of a program like that is very disruptive for the people who do the work—the businesses that have developed business plans around a loan program like that. It also doesn't really help consumers because consumers should be taking advantage of that loan when it makes the most sense for them, for example, when their furnace dies or when they're replacing their siding. They should not be chasing government grants because they know they are going to go away.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

That's great. Thank you.

Dr. McKitrick, in 2002, you wrote a book called Taken by Storm. In chapter 10, you write that underneath the global warming issue is a general question of how to make good when the science is uncertain.

Number one, can you provide a copy of that book to this committee? Number two, do you still believe that the science of climate change is uncertain?

11:20 a.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Ross R. McKitrick

On the first question, I think I can. It's been out of print for a while, but I will see.

On the second question, it's a very large issue. I guess I'd need you to specify. I've published on a lot of aspects of climate change, including some of the statistical issues involved. Yes, the journals are full of uncertain issues on climate change. I'd need you to be a bit more specific.

Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I'm running low on time.

There's “An Evangelical Declaration on Global Warming” from 2009. Did you sign on to that declaration?