Evidence of meeting #19 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was personal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Stoddart  Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Heather Black  Assistant Commissioner (PIPEDA), Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

5:05 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

You may remember that in the submission we made last fall to the special parliamentary review panel, and we met with your committee two weeks ago on our budget, a good part of the increase in the budget was because we realized that we were not resourced and able to meet the public education challenge. We have been since April 1. I gave you some examples of the increase, then, in our outreach and our visibility, notably through the media and through the website.

For the past, Mr. Rosenberg, who you're citing, is correct, but we are aware of this and we're taking steps as fast as we can in order to increase knowledge and awareness of PIPEDA.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you.

You initiated a consultation process, and you've told us about it. I just want to know to what extent you received contributions and feedback in that consultation process from private sector organizations, as distinct from government and the usual suspects, if I could put it that way—specifically private sector.

I think somewhere around 70 people or 70 organizations responded to you, something like that. Of those, how many would have been private sector organizations?

5:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

We had 63 respond, 42 from a group—it's kind of a big group—of law firms, financial institutions, unions, universities, industry and professional associations. It's not really broken down as to private and public sector, but I think we have a good response, just looking at them. I would say it's 50% or more from the private sector, clearly. I don't know.

5:10 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner (PIPEDA), Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Heather Black

I think it would be higher than that.

5:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Yes, there was quite an interest.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you.

I also understand that you were a former privacy commissioner in Quebec. Given that you were, and I think that regime has order-making power, does it not, we were talking about this earlier, and you've asked not to have order-making power. So I'm curious. Given that you were the privacy commissioner in a jurisdiction where you had order-making power, so you've had a taste of it, if I could put it that way, how is it that you've come over to the side that says “No, I don't want that power; I'm happy with what I have”?

5:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify, I'm not saying that to have an efficient privacy regime you should never have order-making power. I'm just saying at this point I think that the wisest thing Parliament could do is let the office go on with the powers in its act, because it hasn't finished using those powers, rather than turning everything upside-down by trying to.... You'd have to completely redraw the legislation.

My experience is that tribunals have their own challenges, notably the challenge of managing the delays of parties. If they're not properly resourced, you have to manage the parties, the availability of those who decide, the presentations of the decisions, and so on. Perhaps for people who haven't worked in tribunals, it seems very quick, a case of we'll just make an order. If you can't rule on damages in order to get your order enforced, then usually one of the parties has to go on to the Superior Court of the local jurisdiction. It's not because you have binding order-making power. It may depend on the legislation that it's necessarily enforced, so you have no damages. You may also be in a very long, drawn-out process, because one of the parties may take you to judicial review during the hearing.

Before this is seen as the panacea in all situations, we should look at exactly what happens in those tribunals, what is their assortment of powers, what elements make them efficient or not. Certainly the ability for us to go to the Federal Court I think is a great advantage. The Federal Court is a prestigious court whose orders will be obeyed and that has the means of enforcing its orders, unlike many administrative tribunals, depending on their design.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Peterson, did you have a question?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

It's basically the question you just asked, Mr. Chairman.

What is your sense of how the Quebec and the British Columbia commissions are operating? They have order-making power. Do you think they're hampered by having order-making power?

5:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

No, I don't think they're hampered. I know when I was in Quebec that Quebec is very proud it had the first private sector legislation.

You have a law that's set up with order-making power in the cases of those two provinces. I think it's working well in those two provinces within that constituency. I think it's one thing to say it's working well there; it's another thing to take a law that hasn't yet been fully applied and to say, well, after five years let's start again. And that is what I am saying.

You must also be mindful, or doubtless you know, Mr. Chairman, that the model of the ombudsman was chosen because that is the model with which the Privacy Commissioner enforces public sector legislation. It is also the model for the Information Commissioner and for the Commissioner of Official Languages. Because it is this unique federal model, that is why it was chosen for PIPEDA. It was the available model. To change it at this point I think would be very detrimental to the enforcement of private sector privacy in Canada.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Have you ever had a case in which you just couldn't get the results you wanted in a timely manner, and therefore you would have wanted to have that order-making power?

5:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

Not for the last year and a half, roughly, when I decided that from now on people complied with our opinions or we met in court--no, with the one exception of the case that's now before the court. There are things like the Blood Tribe case, where we say we don't agree, and we go to court, fine. We each have got a level of court to agree with us, and it's on. But no, not since I've started doing that. I think the issue is how fast we can push through the investigations.

Most of our cases are settled, Mr. Chairman. If you look at our statistics, they're mostly settled. Those that aren't, we'll sit down to discuss it, but if we think we're right, we're prepared to back our word. We haven't had many challenges.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Mr. Tilson.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We talked about the order-making powers. Listening to your experience as the Quebec commissioner, are there other areas that you think could be used in the federal legislation that are not currently in the federal legislation?

5:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

I haven't really looked. I'd have to go back and—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Go back in time.

5:15 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Jennifer Stoddart

—look and see if there were any aspects. The laws are fairly similar.

The Quebec legislation now is at the disadvantage of being the first legislation that was written. There are things, I think, that are clearer in PIPEDA now, and clearer in the B.C. and Alberta legislation, and the two laws are substantially similar. So I can't really think of any advantage.

Of course, it's a different model. It's a model. It's an administrative tribunal model, so everything.... Once it goes to court, there is a role. Of course all the observers and experts look at the role and see who's on the role, but that comes with the model.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, Madam Commissioner.

You are in a very unique position, because you have been able to sit in both chairs with different powers. So if something does come to you before your next appearance before us, we'd certainly appreciate it if you quantified it for us and gave us the benefit of that dual experience, which I don't think anyone else has.

Thank you very much for coming today. We certainly appreciate it.

I want to remind committee members that there will be a meeting on Wednesday from 3:30, and the steering committee will meet next week at some point, to discuss the number of witnesses and a work plan with a finite end to it.

Once again, thank you so much for coming today.

The meeting is adjourned.