Evidence of meeting #18 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schreiber.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Elmer MacKay  As an Individual
Karlheinz Schreiber  As an Individual

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order. This is the 18th meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our order of the day is pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the study of the Mulroney Airbus settlement.

Good afternoon, colleagues. I'd first of all like to give you notice that when we finish with our second witness today, I'd like to briefly go in camera to allow sufficient time to deal with the response of Mr. Mulroney to our letter, which was authorized in our meeting of February 14, specifically about the information request related to the international trips.

Our first witness today is appearing by video conference. The Honourable Elmer MacKay is a privy councillor and was a member of Parliament for 21 years, between 1971 and 1993. During this time he served as minister responsible for CMHC and also for ACOA, Minister of Public Works, Minister of National Revenue, Minister of Regional Economic Expansion, and Solicitor General of Canada.

Good afternoon, Mr. MacKay. Can you hear me clearly?

3:15 p.m.

Elmer MacKay As an Individual

I can.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you kindly, and thank you for accepting our invitation to appear before the committee today.

Mr. MacKay, as a privy councillor I expect that you will recall the rules, procedures, and traditions of the House of Commons, and in particular you will recall the general expectation that witnesses appearing before the committee testify in a truthful and complete manner. Do you wish to proceed under this understanding, sir, or would you feel more comfortable being formally sworn in by the Clerk of the Committee?

3:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

It makes no difference to me.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, we will proceed under the understanding. Thank you.

I understand you have a brief opening statement to make to the committee before we go to questions. I invite you now to address the committee.

3:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

Mr. Szabo, members of the committee, it's been about 15 years since I returned to private life. During that time I've had no contact with Parliament, no appointments or contacts whatsoever. Of course, I did refresh myself on the privileges that a witness has when appearing before a committee like this one. As you well know, the main one is that we have the same privilege to freedom of speech as the members do. I intend to exercise that, of course. I also want to make a few preliminary comments.

Now, with the greatest of deference, I have come to the conclusion that there's a growing consensus that this committee has become irrelevant. People are turned off. Some committee members even seem to share this view. These proceedings are now not even carried, I understand, by some of the Quebec media.

In the beginning, there was a lot of reference made to millions of dollars in mysterious commissions perhaps paid to Canadian people, with all sorts of innuendoes about Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Schreiber as far back as the early 1980s. So far, the only hard evidence of any ongoing dispute between Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Schreiber involves, whether you believe it's $300,000 or $225,000, funds paid by Mr. Schreiber from his own funds to Mr. Mulroney in a business arrangement that, while unorthodox or unconventional, has not been shown as illegal--in other words, no speculation of public funds, nothing else of any substance, $300,000 or less, not more than a down payment on the short-term travel expenses of the Senate or the operating budget for the fifth estate.

In this committee process, my name keeps coming up in incongruous ways. Sometime I'd like to use it myself.

For example, Don Newman, in his recent TV show, said, “Elmer MacKay, friend of Schreiber, friend of Mulroney, used to parade around Ottawa with a big piece of steel with bullet holes in it.” Sure, Don--just like I might say you used to parade around Ottawa with a giant microphone with daisies attached. What kind of nonsense is that?

Actually, Mr. Newman may have been thinking about how, many years ago, Mr. Schreiber--when I was present--brought a small piece of metal from the plating of an armoured vehicle to show Prime Minister Mulroney how inadequate it was to protect our troops. Mr. Schreiber was right.

Incidentally, I agree with Marc Lalonde, my colleague, in his assessment of Mr. Schreiber, whom I personally have never seen do anything wrong. I hasten to add that the same is true of Prime Minister Mulroney, who has done so many good things for so many Canadians in every region of Canada.

Then another incident, our so-called wedding reception, was mentioned in the proceedings of this committee. In the fall of 1994, Karlheinz Schreiber and his wife, Barbel, kindly invited Sharon and me to meet them in New York. We hadn't seen them since our wedding. While we were having lunch in the restaurant in the Pierre Hotel, Mr. Mulroney and Fred Doucet arrived. We had no idea they were even in New York. They stayed briefly, and departed, I believe, for the airport. That was the last we saw of them. So that is another huge exaggeration--wedding reception indeed.

In approximately 1999, I went to Switzerland to see Karlheinz Schreiber concerning his pasta business. Parenthetically, we had both invested a considerable sum of money in a U.S. company based in Seattle, called Pallino, which utilized Mr. Schreiber's pasta machines manufactured in his factory. I might also add that I lost a couple of hundred thousand dollars on that deal, but you don't win them all. And Mr. Schreiber also lost money.

This company, just for the interest of the committee, was not a nickel-and-dime company. It had on its board one of Bill Clinton's former cabinet ministers. It had Brian Billick, the coach of the NFL Ravens. It had Danny Ainge, who used to play for the Toronto Blue Jays. I just mention that as a matter of interest.

Mr. Schreiber decided to come back with me to Canada. It was a quick trip, and as far as I knew, he intended to go back to Switzerland. So much for another myth, that I somehow was complicit in rescuing him from German authorities.

Finally, there is the e-mail I sent to Mr. Schreiber a couple of years ago, in 2006. Although Mr. Schreiber and Mr. Mulroney had good lawyers, they continued to call me very frequently—that is, Schreiber and Mulroney, not their lawyers—each with a litany of complaints against the other's conduct or lack of understanding. At some point, I suggested a truce or an apology so they could resume their former cordial relationship and settle their legal problems.

Mr. Schreiber asked for a draft, which he subsequently, apparently, used to write a more comprehensive letter. I had no ulterior motives nor in any way promoted any interventions in Mr. Schreiber's extradition proceedings, which were, and still are, before the courts.

I want to deal at this point, Mr. Chairman, with what I consider a fairly serious matter for me, and it involves you.

Pursuant to my appearance here today, originally scheduled for February 12, I made preparations to come. I received the following message from the committee, which I transcribed from my message machine: “Good afternoon, Mr. MacKay. This is Erica Pereira. I'm calling from the ethics committee. I spoke to you last week regarding an appearance I believe we had scheduled February 12 from 3:30 to 5:30. I was just calling because I'm trying to jiggle a bunch of other witnesses' schedules, and I was wondering if there was any possibility that you would be available, instead of the 12th, for the 14th of February, at the same time, 3:30 to 5:30. I have openings on the 14th of February and the 7th. They're both Thursdays, from 3:30 to 5:30. If there is any way you could change your schedule to another day, I would really super appreciate it. My phone number”--and she gives her phone number--“If you would give me a call back as soon as possible, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much.”

I agreed, but before changing my arrangements again, I contacted the clerk of your committee, Mr. Rumas, and asked, since others were doing it, could I appear by teleconference. He was very nice. He indicated that he thought it was a reasonable request. I waited in vain for any contact from the committee--not a very good way to run a committee or to help witnesses.

Anyway, I'm coming to the point. I rearranged my affairs, and while doing some chores to prepare for my absence from home, which, because of travel arrangements and logistics, would be at least two days, I had a bad fall. My wife immediately called the committee.

While I was getting some medical attention, I received another message on my answering machine, this time from a well-known journalist, Stephen Maher, and I'm going to read what he said: “Mr. MacKay, it's Steve Maher calling from The Chronicle Herald. I was talking to Mr. Szabo today, chairman of the ethics committee, and he said, how can I put it...he said that you've had a fall—and I'm sorry to hear that—and you're not going to be able to make it here for testimony.” He also said: “He made a joke about rehearsal time, as if he suspects you're rehearsing your testimony or something. If you care to talk to me about that or tell me what you think about that, give me a call.”

The next morning Mr. Szabo was prominently displayed in The Chronicle Herald, Atlantic Canada's largest newspaper. Mr. Maher wrote the following story, prominently displayed:

Elmer MacKay can't take stand; Tumble halts planned testimony.

I'm not going to read this story--it's fairly lengthy--but I'm going to read some of it:

Mr. MacKay's wife called the committee Tuesday night to tell them that her husband, a longtime friend of Brian Mulroney and Karlheinz Schreiber, recently took a tumble and had to go to the emergency room, Liberal MP Paul Szabo said Wednesday.

“He's not in good enough shape to fly to Ottawa tomorrow, nor to go to Halifax for a video conference”...

As he was telling reporters about the news, Mr. Szabo rolled his eyes, suggesting he was suspicious of Mr. MacKay's story. Asked about that, he joked, “I just said it's unfortunate. I mean, rehearsal time. You know.

It goes on to say:

Mr. MacKay was the key minister in the Mulroney cabinet pushing the armoured car...

and so on. Mr. Szabo went on, further in the story:

...he doesn't have reason to believe witnesses are getting together to get their stories straight, in spite of his joke about Mr. MacKay.

“I'm not going to speculate”, he said. “Anything's possible, and the way this thing is shaping up is...he said, she said. The lines are drawn...”

and so on.

Last is this:

West Nova MP Robert Thibault, a Liberal member of the committee, said he wouldn't be surprised if witnesses friendly to Mr. Mulroney are discussing their testimony, since Mr. Mulroney's legal and public relations team has mounted a campaign to influence the process.

Well, I can assure you, Mr. Szabo, that there's been no coaching or rehearsing here. But when this story appeared my phone began to ring off the wall--many outraged calls demanding to know what was going on. What was Mr. Szabo suggesting?

So, sir, my question to you is, just what were you suggesting? And how can you, as chairman of the ethics committee, commit such a breach of ethics and procedure in mocking and undermining a witness who is scheduled to appear and to give testimony?

I happen to have been able to come before a lot of committees in my over twenty years in Parliament, and I've never experienced anything like this. There is no doubt in my mind, Mr. Szabo, as far as I'm concerned, you should recuse yourself from taking part in any of these proceedings when I'm giving evidence here today. And I make that request to you very respectfully.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

That's the end of your statement, sir?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

That's the end of my statement.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. MacKay, I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience that you have been caused during all this process of trying to get you to appear before us. I guess we have learned a lesson, that we should maybe be a little more sensitive to people's needs.

Then on the second item, with regard to the comment, sir, I admit to having made those comments. I apologize for the inconvenience those caused you. But I can affirm to you, sir, that the issue with regard to contacting witnesses and potentially influencing or interfering with witnesses has been a matter the committee has been aware of. I apologize, but this issue was on the floor before, sir, and--

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

We discussed that once.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Yes, I know. Okay, thank you.

Mr. MacKay, all I can say to you, sir, is that we do understand the reality of what happens when you have two sides working and they want to be absolutely sure that facts are correct and that their consultation with witnesses is a normal practice, a normal course of business.

I don't have any evidence that there has been any interference. I can tell you and I can assure you that I did immediately, when we found the couple of examples of this, consult with the parliamentary law clerk to determine whether or not there was a basis, particularly with regard to Mr. Spector, that there was a communication that was published and in the media with regard to his appearance and why he shouldn't be doing what he was proposing to do.

The conclusion at that time from the parliamentary law clerk was that at that time there did not appear to be a clear case of interference with witnesses but that we would continue to monitor the situation.

I'm in no way trying to diminish the fact that I made the comment you said. I apologize for that, sir.

If you have anything further you'd like to say, I'd welcome it now, or we could move to questions.

3:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

I certainly have a few more things I'd like to say, Mr. Szabo.

I note that you have what I would suggest are some pretty good lawyers on your committee, and I would be astounded if they would permit a witness to come into a tribunal or before a judge who made the disparaging and demeaning comments you made about me before I even had a chance to appear, rolling your eyes and making a joke. The inference was clear: I was faking a fall and I was waiting for time to rehearse. You made that very clear.

I am very, very reluctant.... In fact, I've almost come to the conclusion I will not give testimony with you in the chair. I've seen some of your rulings. You're a very interventionist chairman. You've just proved it again with Mr. Tilson.

I want you to take my request seriously. I want you to recuse yourself from your position before I give any evidence.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. MacKay, I have a great deal of respect for you and for your service to Canada. I have no intention of interfering with the work of the committee. As a consequence, I'm going to ask Mr. Tilson to take the chair during your examination by the members, and I will take a seat at the table and listen.

Would that be all right, sir?

3:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

That would be very acceptable to me, and I thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay. Thank you kindly.

Mr. Tilson, please.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Thibault, seven minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Welcome, Mr. MacKay, a fellow Nova Scotian.

I have a couple of comments I'd like to make before I start the questions.

First, you quoted from an interview with Steve Maher. That interview was rather lengthy. One of the points that I did mention to him when he was doing that interview was that I hoped your injury wasn't serious and that you'd recover quickly. I maintain that; I hope we find you well today.

Second, you referred to the fact that our proceedings aren't televised nationally. I think you'll remember from your days in Parliament that very few committee proceedings are televised nationally, other than through CPAC. That doesn't diminish their importance.

The question I would like to begin with is the question you raised about your correspondence with Mr. Schreiber and the draft of a letter by Mr. Schreiber to Mr. Harper. Who asked you, if anybody, to draft that letter? I'm sorry, that was a letter from Mr. Schreiber to Mr. Mulroney, which we heard later was to be presented to Mr. Harper.

3:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

I'm a little confused, Mr. Thibault. Let me go back.

I had numerous conversations between these two men, both of whom are my friends. It was very distressing to see how acrimonious they became and how their relationship deteriorated. It culminated with Mr. Schreiber's appearance on the fifth estate. Mr. Mulroney was absolutely furious. He called me and said so. Mr. Schreiber also called me. Despite this, there was the suggestion that they could still work together. Mr. Mulroney indicated that there was no way he could be in any way supportive or helpful while this was on the record.

At some point during these acrimonious conversations—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. MacKay, excuse me, you're saying “supportive or helpful”. Could you qualify that? Supportive or helpful for what?

3:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

Well, settle their legal problems, speak publicly, as he did on Brian Stewart's show. I have no idea. Those are my phrases, not Mr. Mulroney's.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

No, but you said that Mr. Mulroney told you he could not be supportive or helpful until it was settled. Right?

3:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

Mr. Mulroney indicated it would be very hard for him to in any way be helpful to Mr. Schreiber when this was on the record.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

In what respect would he be helpful to Mr. Schreiber?

3:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Elmer MacKay

I have no idea, Mr. Thibault.

But Mr. Schreiber continued to suggest that Mr. Mulroney and he were both victims of this abortive Airbus investigation and they should work together. Finally, my mind was numb; I felt like a quidnunc. I suggested—I don't know whose initiative it was—that they get together, get on the same page, and settle their differences. Mr. Schreiber at one point asked me to assist him or suggest some sort of way to do this in letter form. So I sent him that memo.

Some time later, I note, he took that short memo and incorporated it into a much longer one. After that they were on their own. I have no idea what was in their minds.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

You suggested that Mr. Mulroney's presence in New York was not related to a reception being held for you and your wife on the occasion of your marriage.