Evidence of meeting #14 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Denise Benoit  Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé  Assistant Commissioner, Compliance and Advice, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order. This is the 14th meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), are the main estimates 2009-10, vote 15 under Parliament, referred to the committee on Thursday, February 26, 2009.

Our witness today with regard to vote 15 is Commissioner Mary Dawson, from the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

Welcome, Ms. Dawson. Again, it's very good to see you. You have some colleagues with you. I hope you will introduce them to us. You have some opening comments for us, and I know the committee has questions for you.

Without further ado, welcome, and please proceed.

3:35 p.m.

Mary Dawson Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When we met last month on March 2, I gave you a brief overview of the role of my office. In the interim, I forwarded to you a response to the committee's question on how Canada treats sponsored travel for members of Parliament in relation to other jurisdictions. I hope you found the information useful.

I would like to introduce the officials sitting at the table with me today: Denise Benoit, Director, Corporate Management, and Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance.

As you know, I was appointed on July 7, 2007, the same day that the new Conflict of Interest Act for public office holders came into effect. I am responsible for administering the Conflict of Interest Act as well as the Conflict of Interest Code for members of the House of Commons.

When I appeared before this committee this time last year, I referred to my first months in the role of commissioner as a period of transition and learning. Upon my arrival, I faced immediate capacity challenges as I set out to administer a new piece of legislation, a code that had just been substantially revised, and a new mandate for the role of Commissioner of Conflict of Interest and Ethics. In very short order, we needed to be able to communicate clear information to those covered by the act and the MP code to provide fair and consistent interpretations and to develop the internal systems that would allow us to meet the compliance deadlines set out in both the act and the MP code.

In contrast to the first seven months in the position, I would characterize the past year as one of consolidation and strengthening of the foundation. I'm pleased to report that we've achieved the priorities I set for the office in the past year and that we remain committed to ensuring that public office holders are well supported in meeting their obligations. Better and more information is now available to public office holders and the public, our procedures and systems are becoming more efficient, and backlogs and time lags in managing files have been all but eliminated.

I'd like to spend a few minutes explaining the work of my office over the past year, as I believe it provides an important context for understanding the financial forecast for this fiscal year. Whether it's in the management of compliance or in the provision of advice, my focus as commissioner has been, and continues to be, on communication and prevention. In addition to providing one-on-one service to MPs and public office holders, my office has undertaken a variety of activities to ensure that everyone affected by either the MP code or the Conflict of Interest Act for public office holders is aware of and understands their obligations.

We redesigned our corporate website to make it more user friendly. We issued guidelines on gifts and reimbursements relating to trusts. We also issued information notices addressing issues of general interest relating to political activities, as well as post-employment and its links to the Lobbying Act. We also issued a notice clarifying how new tax-free savings accounts, introduced in January 2009, relate to compliance requirements for public office holders.

Over the course of the year, my staff and I met with various groups of public office holders, including heads and members of federal boards and tribunals, and ministers and their staff, to discuss the application of the act to their situations. These sessions are of particular importance for ministers' offices not only because of the relatively frequent changes in staff, but also because of their need to inform potential employees of their obligations under the act. In late November 2008, shortly after the last general election, I did an orientation session for new MPs on their obligations under the MP code. Throughout the year we continued to communicate new information related to the code to MPs through the use of the communiqué e-mail service, such as to announce the newly approved forms for making disclosures and when the registry was made available on our website.

With regard to public awareness and understanding, I accepted a number of opportunities to speak publicly about my role in an effort to increase the overall awareness of the ethics regime for public office holders and MPs. In addition, we improved the public registry for public office holders and MPs to make it more accessible and comprehensible to the general public. As of the end of March, the electronic registry for MPs is also operational, so Canadians now have immediate and convenient access to all the public declarations not only of public office holders, including ministers and parliamentary secretaries, but also of members of Parliament.

Much of our work is operational in nature. We provide ongoing confidential advice to all 308 members of Parliament, as well as to some thousand reporting public office holders, on initial compliance measures relating to assets and liabilities, on outside activities, gifts, invitations to events, post-employment obligations, and other areas where there could be a potential conflict of interest. We also manage a public registry for the necessary public declarations required under the act and under the code.

This past election year created additional workload in that compliance measures had to be completely reviewed or newly established simultaneously for all members of Parliament, as well as for all new cabinet ministers, ministers of state, parliamentary secretaries, and their respective staff. Our advisers have been providing effective and timely services in this regard within the specified timelines.

I'm also pleased to report that in the last year we achieved a notable reduction--and in some cases a complete elimination--of backlogs in various operational areas, particularly in the area of annual reviews of information contained in the confidential reports of reporting public office holders. This has been achieved with new tracking tools, new reporting systems, and more consistent data entry.

The reduction in backlog also allowed us last November to introduce the administrative monetary penalty scheme, as required by the Conflict of Interest Act. As part of the implementation process, we established a system of warning notices in relation to some of the disclosure deadlines outlined in the act. These warning notices have been very effective in promoting compliance. In fact, I haven't had to issue any notices of violation, and we continue to have excellent cooperation from reporting public office holders in meeting the initial compliance deadlines.

An important aspect of my mandate is to conduct investigations and make reports on allegations that a member or a public office holder has breached his or her obligations under the MP code or the act, as the case may be. Since last April I considered a total of eight requests from members of Parliament to carry out investigations. Six were related to the MP code, and two requests were related to public office holders under the act.

Between April 1, 2008, and March 31, 2009, I reported findings on four investigations. One investigation that I began in this past fiscal year is still ongoing.

In the cases where I decide not to proceed with an investigation, the decision is based on my assessment of whether the alleged contravention relates clearly to provisions of the MP code or the act and whether there is enough information to provide reasonable grounds to believe the breach may have occurred. The MP code sets out a strict process that includes a specific period of time for the respondent to present me with his or her perspective before I take a decision. There are no deadlines under the act, but I attempt to follow a similar process under the act as well.

The reasons for a decision not to proceed are shared with the parties concerned, but I cannot make them public.

Last year I considered whether to pursue, on my own initiative, a number of requests from members of the general public to undertake investigations of members and public office holders. While I have no obligation to act on requests from anyone other than members of Parliament—and this was recently confirmed in a Federal Court of Appeal decision in a challenge launched by Democracy Watch—I feel that it's important to consider these requests carefully if there appears to be a potential issue that's within my mandate. Under both the act and the MP code, I have the power to self-initiate investigations where I have reason to believe that either has been breached. Requests from the public are reviewed to see whether there is enough sound information to support the allegation. Most allegations from the public do not meet that test.

Only in one instance this year did I choose to self-initiate an investigation under the act on the basis of information provided by someone other than an MP or a senator. That examination, as I mentioned earlier, is still ongoing.

As I mentioned during my appearance before this committee on March 2, 2009, I made a number of organizational changes last year to better reflect the needs of the office and make better use of our human and financial resources. I may still need to make a few more modifications in the operations, but I feel we are close to having the kind of structure that will best support the mandate of the office now.

As part of our organizational changes, the office completed a full review of all job descriptions at every level, ensuring that the classifications were sound and well aligned throughout the organization. We also updated our internal policies for good financial and human resources management.

I've been fortunate in retaining a number of employees from the previous Ethics Commissioner; however, staff turnover remains a challenge for my office. Although we were successful in bringing in new employees through various means, including competitive processes and Interchange Canada assignments, we continue to lose employees to the federal public service, which offers more career advancement opportunities. I believe this is typical for small organizations such as my office.

We are finding that competitions for positions as compliance advisers are more successful when open to the public, but this results in longer staffing processes. As of March 31, I had a total of eight vacant positions, representing 17% of our workforce. This, along with the fact that a number of positions were staffed late in the year, explains the budget lapse of approximately $900,000 in my salary envelope. I'm still confident that my full salary budget of $4.5 million is required to support my organization structure once all the positions are staffed.

An important portion of my non-salary budget of $1.8 million is spent covering the cost of administrative services received under MOUs from the House of Commons, the Library of Parliament, and Public Works and Government Services Canada. The balance is used for normal operating costs, as well as the costs of investigations under the MP code and the act. It includes a reserve to cover such potential situations as an abnormally high demand for inquiries or examinations and to cover special projects.

As I've said before, I'm very impressed with the dedication to the public interest that I've seen on the part of public officials, whether elected or appointed. A continuing priority for me in this new fiscal year will be to support and facilitate their compliance with the code and the act through continued education and outreach efforts. We're in the process of developing a strategic communications and outreach plan to ensure that we focus our educational activities on the needs of those subject to the code and the act as well as on the public at large and other stakeholders. We will continue to enhance and improve the information on the act and the code found on our website.

We attempt to keep in touch with other jurisdictions in relation to their conflict of interest regimes to learn about each other's practices and issues. This outreach includes the Canadian Conflict of Interest Network, which is a federal-provincial group; the OECD's expert group on conflict of interest; and the Council on Governmental Ethics Laws, COGEL, which is a U.S.-based organization of government practitioners in ethics, including conflict of interest.

As you may be aware, I am currently working with a recently established subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on the rules relating to gifts for members. We have already established guidelines for public office holders; these guidelines can be found on our website.

In my upcoming annual report on the Conflict of Interest Act, I intend to refer to some of the challenges I have faced in interpreting and applying the act. My annual report will automatically be referred to your committee for review, so I look forward to further discussions on that with you.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that I think we have really strengthened the foundations of the office in the past year. While we still face some challenges with staffing that have meant that we have not fully used our salary budget this past year, we have developed a good team and are meeting the demands that have been placed before us so far.

While there are still improvements to be made, and no doubt new challenges that will arise, I feel that we have a sound organization with which to undertake them.

Thank you for your attention. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you. I'd be happy to answer questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you very much.

I'm going to exercise some chairman's discretion because it might help us in our discussion. Did you bring with you information about the actual expenditures in the last two complete fiscal years?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Yes, we have some. Denise Benoit has some information.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

About two-thirds of your budget is for human resources direct costs, under the line “personnel”. In the 2007-08 year, personnel cost was $3.6 million. Can you tell me what the actual cost was?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Can I turn that over to you, Denise?

3:50 p.m.

Denise Benoit Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Absolutely.

Although the expenditures for this fiscal year are still not final, what we have--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I'm talking about 2007-08.

3:50 p.m.

Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Denise Benoit

Oh, you meant for 2007-08. I'm sorry. I do have that information.

The actual cost for 2007-08 was $3.9 million, and that included the employee benefits plan.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I believe this would as well.

So you were 10% over in 2007-08. Now, what are your actual costs for 2008-09?

3:50 p.m.

Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Denise Benoit

Although we are waiting for the final numbers to come in, we are expecting to lapse $900,000. I think what we would spend would be $3.6 million, plus the--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Is it $4.4 million?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Right now we have $3.3 million of expenditures and we're expecting another $300,000, so that's $3.6 million. If we add the employee benefits plan to that, which is $800,000, we're at $4.4 million--but that doesn't make sense, because we're lapsing $900,000, so it's $4.5 million.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, it's $4.4 million or $4.5 million.

For the last fiscal year, 2008-09, you mentioned that you're currently expecting a 17% shortfall in your human resources complement.

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Given how quickly people can get trained and on side, etc., how much of that do you expect could be dealt with in the upcoming fiscal year?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

We have now had some competitions, and there are four who will shortly come on strength.

Can you add to that, Denise?

3:50 p.m.

Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Denise Benoit

That's pretty much it. These employees are actually starting in the coming week, so at least four will come in shortly.

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

It's a full complement.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Then we would expect some lapse, since you are already behind.

Go ahead, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome once again, Commissioner.

Judging by the number of tanned MPs after this two-week break, and just as all MPs enjoy to travel.... When we read the Conflict of Interest Act, subsection 11(1) states:

No public office holder or member of his or her family shall accept any gift or other advantage, including from a trust, that might reasonably be seen to have been given to influence the public office holder in the exercise of an official power, duty or function.

A second part talks about forfeiture. You're not allowed to accept gifts of over $1,000 in value.

It also lists exceptions, and there are three types. One deals with the Canada Elections Act, so that would be donations during election campaigns. Family and friends are excepted, and also something that is a normal expression of courtesy or protocol. However, we allow unlimited acceptance of gifts of travel for MPs.

There seems to be a disconnect between the two. I believe the act has valid concerns that it addresses in section 11. It sets a very clear limit and it provides exceptions. Travel isn't one of those exceptions. You can't accept any gifts over $1,000, and it references why we should not accept gifts of over $1,000. It says it could be used to influence public office holders in their exercise of official power.

Now, when I check your report, I see that in one case one MP accepted almost $30,000 of trips. All we list are MPs; from what I can tell, we don't list the family members, spouses, and children who sometimes go on these trips. There just seems to be a gaping hole in how we approach this.

Do you have any comments?

3:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

The drafters of the code, who are the MPs, chose to allow sponsored travel. The only comment I can make is that at least it has to be disclosed. I find disclosure is very important in any kind of a conflict of interest regime. At least you can see what the MPs are doing in the annual disclosure.

It's true, there's quite a difference between the code and the act. As a matter of fact, as you have seen—I think it was you who requested the sponsored travel information—none of the provinces have a specific provision for sponsored travel. It just falls into the gift provisions. Frankly, I don't know what the background of the policy for that was, because we're not privy to the discussions that led to the development of the code.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

For you as the commissioner, this seems to be a problematic area, especially when you take a look at other jurisdictions that have covered this off. You tend to report within the parameters of what's asked of you--the numbers, etc. Other commissioners often in their reports will also provide recommendations and policy recommendations. You're considered the Ethics Commissioner, and people turn towards you not just to provide the raw numbers, and raw numbers based on self-reporting, but we and the public we all serve look to you to provide policy recommendations.

How much time and effort does your department expend—and we're looking at your budget—on policy review, on other jurisdictions, and in situations like the one I've mentioned in providing recommendations to committee so that we can become more ethical in the way we conduct ourselves?

3:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

That's an increasing priority. I have to say that in the first year I came into office my entire effort had to be put to getting the office staffed up and to make sure the mechanisms we had in there for information were accurate.

The other thing about the first year in your mandate is that it's probably not the year to come out very quickly with all sorts of objections to the materials you're administering. In my annual reports that are coming up in a couple of months, you'll see more in the way of at least observations on problems in the act. As I mentioned, I'm currently working with the procedures committee. They've established a subcommittee, and I'm looking at improvements on the gift provisions in there.

We're well aware of the benefits of making observations. Of course, we're the ones who see the instances, but there are lots of different things you have to set in place before you start suggesting what should change. We're at that turning point now, I think.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Perhaps in the next year we might see some recommendations in regards to policy and changes.