Evidence of meeting #7 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
One of my concerns was that when I looked at some of these issues from a complaints perspective, because that's what we receive, I felt that certain users—and you've had a certain reaction to that sheet I gave you about the volume users—were clogging the system outside and inside my shop. So we've introduced an early resolution unit that does some triage. I didn't want, for instance, the 500 CBC complaints blocking the whole investigative process in my shop. So we've done some triage, and that seems to be working well. I didn't want the little old lady from Moose Jaw who is using the act for the first time to be told, “You're number 2,185; we'll see you in two years”.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Would you know if the ten users you're referring to are ten users who have been making requests for more than five years, say, or are they recent users?
4:40 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
They're experienced users.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Marleau, I want to go back to that list of issues I was raising earlier just to ask if, in your time as commissioner, you've seen the government take any action on any of these issues. Has there been any effort to oblige public officials to create the records necessary to document their actions and decisions?
4:40 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Other than the standing policy directives from Treasury Board, nothing statutory.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Has a general public interest override for all exemptions been provided so that the public interest is put before the secrecy of the government?
4:40 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
No, and I think that's a recommendation in the open government statute proposal.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Have all exemptions from the disclosure of government information been justified only on the basis of the harm or injury that would result from disclosure, not from blanket exemption rules?
4:40 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I think I'd say, subject to being corrected by my assistant commissioner, that the body of our investigation would show there is abuse of exemptions.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Have the disclosure requirements of the Access to Information Act.... Has there been any move to prevent their circumvention by secrecy provisions and other federal acts, while respecting the confidentiality of national security and the privacy of personal information?
4:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
There is a body of statutes out there that exempt various institution programs from access to information. It's a creeping phenomenon.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Chair, I just want to say that the issues I've been reading might be familiar to my colleagues across the table. They're the commitments the Conservative Party made in its platform in 2006 on strengthening access to information legislation. So it seems there is still quite a way to go in terms of meeting those commitments.
Mr. Marleau, on this question of number of users, number of complaints, and number of requests they're filing, is it possible that the kind of specialized experience that's necessary to have a successful ATI request filed and followed through on has necessitated the development of experienced users who provide that service to other people who are trying to access information from the federal government? Does that explain some of the concentration of those requests?
4:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The general answer to that would be yes. I think there is a legitimate role for what I would call “data brokers”, who know the system and can serve a client fairly quickly by using the statute more effectively. There are also people outside the country, who don't have the right to make an access to information request and need a data broker.
That's a recommendation I'm making, which should be dealt with. Anyone should be able to have access without using a broker if they so choose. There are also people who want anonymity, for whatever reason, and they use the services of these experienced individuals.
So it's provided for in the statute.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
That might offer an explanation as to why there are some folks who seem to be making requests so often.
4:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's difficult for me; I'm not allowed to impute motive. When I get a frequent user who is asking for a body of information and has a complaint, that's a complaint.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
But there might be other explanations, other than what seems to be immediately apparent to some folks around the table.
You mentioned that funding is a serious issue. I heard you say your budget was $8 million a year and that you're going to the body that looks at the budget requests of parliamentary officers. Can you give us any scoop on what you need to do your job appropriately? It's very clear from your language in the report that you don't have that ability now. It sounds like the whole operation is in jeopardy, partially because of funding issues.
4:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I made that case last year that we needed to look at it but I didn't want to just throw money at it.
Parliament graciously provided money for us to do a fundamental study. We got $100,000 in the estimates last year to do what's called an A-base review. We've done that. We've negotiated with Treasury Board. I believe at this hour we have agreement on a proposal to the parliamentary panel, which will review it next week. If we get the amount of money we're requesting, we'll be making up the lost ground of the 1990s and early 2000s in trying to meet the service standards Canadians should expect from my office.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you.
Just to clarify, the advisory panel does not approve your request. I'm on the advisory panel. I don't want to be the reason you're not doing your job. In fact it's collaboration with Treasury Board, and the panel will look forward to seeing you next week when you come.
Mr. McTeague, please.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
If you don't mind, I'll split my time with Ms. Martha Hall Findlay. I only have one question.
Monsieur Marleau, Madame Legault, it's good to see both of you here. Thank you for being here.
Monsieur Marleau, I'd like to recognize that you have lost a good friend in Monsieur Gilbert Parent, who you worked with in the past. Condolences to you as well. We commend you for being such a good worker with him over the years, for all of us.
Monsieur Marleau, I want to go very quickly to Mr. Reid's reports and recommendations, some of which have been crystallized into a private member's bill.
On the ten recommendations you put forward, are they the same as, different from...? Do they in fact provide you with the litmus test you need to provide greater teeth? I'm referring, for instance, to recommendation nine, where you actually talk about removing “for the purposes of access within 60 days for extension”. You're suggesting forfeiture of the fees charged. That doesn't sound like something that would give a whole lot of bite to what you're trying to accomplish.
I also recognize the “access to the court”. In your view, would that not provide a greater stampede to the courts, given the preponderance of cases?
4:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The answer to the first part of your question is that some of these are in the Reid open government proposal and some are not. We approached it from a perspective of trying to reinforce the compliance model and dealing with some of the issues of effectiveness of the commissioner.
To your question about recommendation nine, if a government department has to come to me for approval of a further extension, that creates a discipline in the system. While it might not be as sharp as a shark's tooth, they have to come to the commissioner to explain why they need more than 60 days. In Alberta, that's what's happening, and it works. They don't want to explain; they want to get it done. And that's the idea.
In terms of the direct access to the courts, I explained earlier that many requesters asked for this in the consultations we did, but there are costs. If I go to the Federal Court with a requester, there are no costs. So I wouldn't see a stampede through the courts. But those who choose to do so would have that freedom. I've been told by some requesters to get out of the way: your investigations are in the way; we just want to get to the court with this.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Yes.
Could you just comment on how your recommendations here differ from those of John Reid, the previous commissioner?
4:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Well, one of them is the hybrid order-making power. That would be a significant one.
Many of the provinces--B.C., Alberta, Quebec, and Ontario--have full order-making powers. I'm recommending that Parliament, through statute, give order-making powers to the commissioner on administrative complaints--the fees, preparation and search, all of those costs. While it may not seem like much, if the commissioner gets a complaint on, say, fees, and goes in and says “Sorry, that's an abuse, and you forfeit your fees”, that will create a discipline in the system.