Evidence of meeting #8 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Is it also true that the reforms introduced by this Conservative government expanded the act to cover organizations like the CBC and the Wheat Board?
4:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Yes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Given the actions taken by this government in just over three years, would it not be fair to say that we are following the recommendation that Parliament review the Access to Information Act by developing the Federal Accountability Act and expanding your mandate to cover more organizations?
4:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's not expanding my mandate to cover more organizations, because I deal with complaints; now I have more organizations who can complain.
But in response, in terms of the recommendations I'm making today, I would say that while it's true the scope of the act was expanded, and that while it's true Parliament acted in a proactive way to increase the reach for more transparency, we've created a bigger problem. Now we have these many more agencies who essentially have the same kinds of issues to deal with--paper-based, extensions, lack of resources, not enough trained individuals in the system. As a matter of fact, the crown corporations cherry-pick some of the best away from the public service, including from my office, in order to get up to speed.
So while it was well-intended in terms of scope, if we don't fix some of the structure and some of the mechanics, we just create a bigger problem.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Could I intervene?
I'm sorry, I think we're getting some mixed signals over here on the government side. On the one hand, we're being told to expand access and make it applicable to a larger number of agencies. On the other hand, when you discuss the fact that we have done exactly that, you point out that it only causes the problems that are associated with ATI generally to be applicable to a larger number of agencies.
So what is the overriding recommendation--more access or less?
4:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Well, sir, I can say that I was not one of those who were calling for more access back in 2006 as the Federal Accountability Act came forward. On the record are the views of my predecessor, the previous commissioner, on the merits of that statute. I need not go there again.
What I'm saying to you today is that it is laudable that the scope of the act was extended. I have no problems with that. Maybe it didn't go far enough. There are other institutions who could..... But the structural issues that I've been reporting on for two years were there before the FAA. They're still there. Unless there's the political will to invest and change and bring the statute into the 21st century, we're just.... If you expand it some more, you're just expanding some of the structural issues.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Finally, I just want to address this issue of the increased number of complaints. You have said that those complaints do not resolve from the sweeping expansion of the Access to Information Act that the government brought in, but that there are other factors. You might be right that there are other factors, but again, one new institution that we added to the act is responsible for half of all of the new complaints. You might say that was a particularity of that agency, but it continues to be a reality that those 500 complaints are counted as part of the 1,000 new complaints that you cite in your report and are therefore responsible in large degree for the increased number of complaints. It's not that the government is doing a poorer job; it's just that there are a larger number of agencies against which complaints can be made, and therefore there are a larger number of complaints.
4:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
That is partially true in that the more there are, the more complaints there can be. My numbers over one year went up 81%. That includes CBC. That's coming down. We're still going to stay around the 2,100--let's say--margin. CBC this year is down to about 250 over the previous year. It should flatten out in terms of any one institution.
The other component is the reduced period, which came in with the Federal Accountability Act. I don't think that's a bad thing since having a one-year timeline was a bit long. Having 60 days focuses the mind, both for the requester and for the departments.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
What percentage of the new complaints would you attribute to that change, if you had to estimate?
4:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
If I had to estimate, I'd say 40% to 50%.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So there you have half of the new complaints coming from one agency that was newly added to the act, and the other, roughly, half attributable to the changes in the complaint period. In reality there is not a real increase in the number of complaints, according to the numbers you've shared with us today and in your report.
4:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I can tell you that I had 1,560. I now have 2,350. To me the difference is real and concrete.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Okay. This will be an important area for committee members to examine, I'm sure. We have to really understand whether there is a problem, and if there is a problem, how it is fixed. I'm pretty sure Mr. Marleau said a number of times at the press conference and so on that the increase in the number of complaints is not proportionate to the extension of the time. Really, the extension of the time issue is something I think we have to examine a little more fully, but I'm sure we'll get on to that.
Because I've just been taking people as they've arrived, I have Mr. Siksay followed by Madam Thi Lac, and any other member who has a pressing need to pop in before we move on to our last item.
Mr. Siksay, please.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Chair, before Mrs. Block or Mr. Poilievre fall over from patting themselves on the back so hard about this, I just want to point out that the Conservative Party made a very extensive platform commitment around freedom of information and access to information in 2006, and they've actually failed miserably to implement almost anything related to that campaign promise, including enacting former Commissioner Reid's recommendations in a draft bill that he put forward, which the current Information Commissioner has said a number of times is still very important to move forward. So I think the self-congratulation needs to be limited slightly--and I don't normally want to be that partisan in a meeting here.
Commissioner, one of the big issues around access to information is the requirement to keep appropriate records. There's been a very significant concern among folks who are interested in this that the government isn't doing that. I don't see it specifically in your recommendation. I think there's something in former Commissioner Reid's recommendations, but does that go far enough? Will former Commissioner Reid's recommendation address the problems around the requirement to keep records?
5 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
My recollection on the duty to keep records is that the position of the former commissioner is mine as well. It does not belong in this statute. It belongs, I think, in the National Archives of Canada Act.
The duty to keep records and the concept of access to those records are two principles. It should be the responsibility of the archivist to articulate what is necessary and should be kept for preservation over the long term and what should be kept in a temporary timeframe, so that the history of policy development is in a framework that the archives, at the end of the day, will require.
Now, on the duty to keep records, you will get into the definition of what a record is and whether it is a handwritten Post-it note. It gets complex from there onward.
My responsibility is to ensure access rights to those records that exist. Of course, I have to be an advocate for them to exist, but I believe it belongs in the National Archives of Canada Act.
5 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Do you know if there have been any suggestions for changes specifically that would, in your opinion, improve the record keeping?
5 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I remember reading the debate around the Federal Accountability Act. There was some debate around creating the responsibility of a duty to record, and the debate ranged from whether it should be a criminal offence, at one end of the scale, for deliberately not keeping a record that should be kept, to the usual administrative or disciplinary measures for non-performance.
5 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
I think I asked you this the other day. There are still government organizations that are not covered by our Access to Information Act, even with the changes that have been made since the Conservatives came to power. Is there anything in Mr. Reid's recommendations or your recommendations that would see all government agencies, for instance, and all government departments covered by the act?
5 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I said in my testimony last week that our default position is to follow the dollar. If the taxpayer is paying for it, it should be accessible.
5 p.m.
NDP
5 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
In part, but it in fact does not quite go as far as following the dollar.
5 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
How would you put “follow the dollar” in a piece of legislation or a legislative recommendation?
5 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
On the issue, for instance, of covering the Senate, the general administration of the Senate is paid for by the taxpayer and is not within the reach of the Access to Information Act right now. Certain grants made outright to organizations with contractual obligations to Her Majesty might be another area.
Following the dollar can take you quite far, but the principle that should apply is that if the taxpayers have paid for it, they should have access to it.