Evidence of meeting #22 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was siksay.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denis Kratchanov  Director and General Counsel, Information Law and Privacy Section, Department of Justice

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number 22 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day--and there are three--are pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi), a study on Access to Information Act reform.

Appearing before us this morning is the Honourable Rob Nicholson, Minister of Justice. He is accompanied by Mr. Denis Kratchanov, director and general counsel, information law and privacy section.

Welcome, gentlemen. I appreciate your taking the time to be with the committee.

Minister, as you know, the committee has been working for some time on the issues of access to information and privacy. In one of the responses the minister gave us, he referred us to a document that was tabled in April 2006 in the House by the then justice minister, who is now the Minister of Public Safety.

That document never did make it to the committee. I wasn't the chair at the time--I don't think many people here were on the committee at the time--it was Tom Wappel. But that document was not referred by the House to the committee, and the committee really didn't become aware of it, but we have subsequently, Mr. Minister. I just want to assure you.

Our researchers have examined the elements of the document. They have concluded that substantively all of the items, at some point or another, have been considered by the committee, first of all in its initial report, and secondly, on the report that was coined the “12 quick fixes”, on which we received the original response from you, sir.

Subsequently we requested additional input on the specific recommendations that were made for the guidance of the committee. That is the reason we're here on both reports. The first item is on access, which is of the most significant interest to the committee.

We're in your hands, sir. I'm sure you have a few opening remarks. I'll leave it to you as to how you address them.

11:05 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you very much.

I'm appearing before this committee again on the topics of access to information and privacy in my capacity as Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

We have been very busy on a number of fronts, particularly with reforms to our justice system. We all have a stake in making sure the system works effectively and our citizens are safe.

We've made it a priority, of course, to tackle the whole question of crime. As you know, I've introduced a number of bills since March, bills that help protect children from online predators; tackle property crime and trafficking in property obtained by crime; impose tougher penalties for drug crimes, particularly in relation to gangs and organized criminal groups; and provide tougher sentences for fraud to help combat white-collar crime.

We are providing more tools for police and prosecutors to prevent and investigate terrorist activities. We're ending the use of house arrest for property and other serious crimes by serious and violent offenders. We are repealing the faint-hope clause that allows murderers to obtain early parole and gives them the opportunity to repeatedly increase their victimization of the families they have so badly affected. We're strengthening the legislation that handles violent and repeat young offenders.

In addition to this important and necessary group, our government has addressed other issues that affect Canadians, such as the Access to Information Act reform. Again, as the chairman pointed out circumstantially, our government has introduced laws that affect access to information. That, of course, is through the Federal Accountability Act, which makes a number of important and necessary improvements to the whole question of access to information.

Among other things, that particular piece of legislation greatly expands the number of entities covered by the act and strengthens it by providing for institutions to assist requesters without regard to their identity.

When the Federal Accountability Act was introduced in 2006, the government also tabled a discussion paper, which the chairman referred to. The paper raised a number of issues for your consideration in relation to the reform proposals of the former Information Commissioner, Mr. John Reid. The paper encouraged this committee to consider these issues and consult widely with interested stakeholders and affected government institutions.

When I appeared before you in 2008 and again in 2009, I urged the committee to take up a full-fledged study of the issues raised in the discussion paper. We believed that further study would provide an opportunity for this committee to shape further access reforms by calling on key witnesses and stakeholders in order to fully understand all views. The important work conducted by this committee on a broader basis would also provide a deeper appreciation of the impacts of possible access reforms.

As I said in a letter forwarded to you on April 29 of this year, I was pleased to note that the discussion paper has been recirculated to all members of this committee and you have conducted research on the contents of the paper.

This government takes seriously the issues of access to information and privacy. I'm here again to discuss the committee's work thus far and the work that, in my opinion, is still needed before further access to information or privacy reforms are made.

As you know, a year ago this committee tabled its report entitled, “The Access to Information Act: First Steps Towards Renewal”. The government reviewed the report with interest and noted that this committee endorsed 12 of Monsieur Marleau's recommendations. As required, the government tabled its response last fall, in October 2009.

It's worth noting that in his introduction to a March 4, 2009, submission to the committee, Monsieur Marleau wrote that “it is recognized that the Act is sound in terms of its concept and balance”. Mr. Marleau then went on to say that his recommendations addressed only the most pressing matters. This last point suggested to some that his recommendations could be quickly and easily implemented, which the government takes some issue with.

As stated in its response to the committee's report, it is the government's opinion that the nature of Mr. Marleau's proposals would require and should require extensive consultation with stakeholders.

For example, one recommendation would involve increasing the powers and mandate of the Information Commissioner to include reviewing legislative proposals and making decisions regarding requests for time extensions beyond 60 days. These proposed reforms would create a shift in the nature of the Information Commissioner's office from an ombudsman model towards a quasi-judicial model, which would not be consistent with other agents of Parliament. The government's view remains that implementing the proposals recommended in the committee's report would be neither quick nor easy.

Furthermore, several of Mr. Marleau's proposals could have cost implications, which in the current climate cannot be ignored. Although the economy is improving through sound fiscal management as set out in the economic action plan under the guidance of my colleague Minister Flaherty, we are in a period of fiscal restraint. So we must always be careful.

Turning now to privacy issues, about a year ago, this committee tabled its report “The Privacy Act: First Steps Towards Renewal”. As you know, this report provides the committee's recommendations regarding the Privacy Commissioner's 12 proposals for reform. The commissioner herself describes these as “quick fixes”. This committee's report supported five proposals and offered qualified support for one other. The committee also indicated that four of the 12 recommendations required further study.

Finally, you stated that the committee did not consider it a top priority to enshrine in the Privacy Act a requirement for government institutions to assess privacy impacts of new programs or systems. This is a cautious approach to the Privacy Act. The issues involved in privacy are complex and, more importantly, they require the balancing of the interests that are crucial for our democratic society.

For example, the Government of Canada must strike the right balance between national security and Canada's international obligations while respecting the privacy of Canadians. Indeed, the government alluded to this complexity in its response to the committee's report on the commissioner's tenth proposal, which recommended the strengthening of the provisions of the Privacy Act governing the disclosure of personal information by the Canadian government to foreign states.

As you know, a number of the Privacy Commissioner's recommendations proposed to enshrine current policy in law. In its response dated October 29, 2009, the government pointed out that policies have certain advantages over law. For example, the Treasury Board Secretariat issued a new directive on privacy protection and a renewed directive on social insurance numbers that clarifies accountabilities with respect to the management of personal information.

Since the government's response, and as I stated in my letter to this committee on April 29, the President of the Treasury Board has issued three new directives on privacy. They are: the directive on privacy requests and correction of personal information; the directive on privacy practices; and the directive on privacy impact assessment.

These directives provide detailed guidance and best practices for the day-to-day administration of the Privacy Act. They also represent an important development that ensures the privacy of Canadians continues to be adequately protected.

To conclude, it's the government's hope that this committee will continue to consider access and privacy reforms, bearing in mind the complexities they raise, and consult extensively with all relevant stakeholders in order to achieve the best possible results for Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If there are any questions, I would be pleased to take them, and I am pleased to be joined by a true expert in this area for any of the technical aspects of both pieces of legislation, Mr. Denis Kratchanov.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Minister.

I should also say that in 2006 the government proposed to implement the John Reid draft of the Access to Information Act, which I think gave the committee and Canadians the feeling that in fact changes were necessary, and now we've gone through a process since that time. I am little concerned that maybe the process or the responsibility has kind of flipped on its head, and that the onus on updating legislation has been placed on this committee rather than the department of which you are the head.

I should just simply ask whether or not you, as the Minister of Justice, in your responsibilities for both those acts, have any plans whatsoever at this time to update the legislation--either the Access to Information Act or the Privacy Act.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Well, again for clarification purposes, although I did not have direct responsibility for the Federal Accountability Act in my capacity initially as the government House leader, I was a big supporter and a very big fan of the changes. That act made a number of changes and increased the public's access to important information, so I viewed that as... I mean, as you'll remember, it was a difficult piece of legislation to get through, and I remember that very well in my capacity as government House leader. But again, I think this was a significant reform, a significant step forward, expanding the number of institutions to which the act applies.

With respect to any further changes, I would look forward to your consultations with stakeholders to take up that challenge and the request that I have made on previous occasions to have a look at this. I always look for input from members of Parliament.

Again, all good ideas don't have to originate in the Department of Justice. Heaven knows that they've had many excellent ideas, and I'm very grateful for all of that, but they don't all have to come from the Department of Justice. That is why, on a bill that various individuals have recognized is complex—and it's a question of balancing a number of interests—I certainly would look forward to your study and your input on that.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Well, thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure the committee will want to continue to consider matters that may come before us for study. We will assume that at this point there are no plans from the Minister of Justice to make any changes to either of those acts at this time. Correct?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Again, I never make any announcements before I make any announcements--

11:15 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, fair enough.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

--but again, I am giving you that challenge.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

All right. Let's go to the members. I'm sure they have many questions for you, Minister.

I'm going to start with Ms. Foote, and then we'll go to Ms. Freeman, Mr. Siksay, and Madam Block.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here as a witness this morning. We appreciate the time you're giving us, but I do understand that we only have you for an hour.

Is that right, Mr. Chair, or do we have him for longer than that?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I'm sure the minister is flexible. We'll see how she goes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

All right. I wanted to make that point because obviously the length of your answers is going to be important in terms of the amount of time we have with you this morning.

I want to make reference to a letter that you sent to the chair of the committee, dated April 29, in which you said, “Let me begin by assuring you that the Government is deeply committed to upholding the principles of the Access to Information Act”.

I want to go to that because I want to ask you, then, as the minister responsible for the act, are you aware of the provisions of section 67.1(1) of the act? It states that:

No person shall, with intent to deny a right of access under this Act,

(a) destroy...or alter a record;

(b) falsify...or make a false record;

(c) conceal a record; or

(d) direct, propose, counsel or cause any person in any manner to do anything mentioned...[above].

Are you familiar with that section of the act, Minister?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm familiar with the whole act, Ms. Foote.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you.

I'm sure you're aware, because it's been in the media, that we had Mr. Togneri in front of us in this committee. Do you believe that the actions of Mr. Togneri in interfering in the ATIP process, despite having no delegated authority, in ordering a report to be unreleased, violated the provisions of the Access to Information Act?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I think you're asking me to make a quasi-judicial decision, and it's very interesting.

With respect to the provisions and the policy within my department and my responsibilities as Minister of Justice and Attorney General, the powers with respect to ATIP are delegated by me to public servants, who then make those decisions in accordance with the Access to Information Act.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

So I guess, then, the question I'm asking again is, given the criteria under the act, and given Mr. Togneri's actions—which, by the way, he admitted to in front of this committee—do you believe that he in fact violated the provisions of the act?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm not in a position to start taking evidence, if that's what you're asking me—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Absolutely not. I'll repeat what Mr. Togneri said in front of the committee—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I guess if you're asking me what my position is with respect to the Access to Information Act, again, if you're asking me what I do, it's a delegated authority to the minister, and of course I do that to public servants. I believe that is as it should be.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Let's get back to ministerial accountability, then. Under oath here, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, according to Mr. Togneri, had given him informal authority to do what the Prime Minister's chief of staff told our committee repeatedly—in fact he said so nine times—was strictly forbidden.

So my question again is, given that there was no authority under the act for exempt staff to do these types of things, do we in fact have a situation here where a minister has not taken responsibility for what they're saying he has responsibility for?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Excuse me, Madam Foote. I apologize. A point of order has been put forward.

Please, make sure it's a point of order, okay?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I believe it is.

Can you ask the member to stick to the topic at hand? She's asking the minister to speculate on something that would be inappropriate for any of us to speculate on, and that's the problem. Members across the floor have speculated and accused people of doing things without any proof. So I would ask that she get back to the work at hand.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I must admit I somewhat anticipated that there would be some leakage to other subject matters. I think the minister is quite capable of responding as to what is proper to address. I find it very difficult being in the chair's spot to be able to anticipate where a member may be going, notwithstanding all of the preamble.

Normally it is the case--and I've learned this lesson very well during the Mulroney-Schreiber hearings--that it is really in fact up to the witness to advise the committee as to whether or not they can comment or answer a question for due reason. The minister is quite capable of dealing with this. If the member is going to use their time going where the minister can't answer, that's the member's choice. Okay?

All right. Carry on. You have three and a half minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, as the minister responsible for the act, these questions clearly would fall under your purview in terms of responding to them.

We have had an exempt staff in the person of Mr. Togneri, under oath in front of this committee, say that he in fact broke the law. And my question, of course, is that if that in fact was the case, and you're the minister responsible for the act, how is it that Mr. Togneri is still employed with this government?

The minister responsible, Mr. Paradis, gave him informal authority when, according to the chief of staff of the Prime Minister, that was not to happen. How is it that we still have a minister who has not been held accountable if in fact this government says there is ministerial accountability for their actions?