Evidence of meeting #6 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was staff.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Guy Giorno  Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order.

This is meeting six of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi), are to study allegations of interference in access to information requests. Our witness today, from the Office of the Prime Minister, is Mr. Guy Giorno, the chief of staff.

I would like to mention to colleagues that the committee approved certain other agenda items to be dealt with, should there be time at any meeting. I've included them at the end here, but Mr. Giorno will be the first item of business until the committee is prepared to release him and move on.

This morning the commissioner for access to information tabled her report cards on 24 institutions. I think it was a tough but fair report. I'm sure it will come to play in some of the discussions we have with Mr. Giorno.

Sir, I understand you have some brief opening remarks for the committee.

I see that we have a question first from Madam Davidson.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm not going to take up much time here. I just want a clarification, and you partially answered it in your opening remarks. I'm wondering how long Mr. Giorno will be here.

The second thing is on the third item of business on our agenda, a discussion on the appointment process. Just to be clear, that is the process of doing it, and not the appointment itself. Is that correct?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

That's correct.

On the timeframe, Mr. Giorno has come here at our request. We're basically in the hands of the committee. I'm sure the committee will have questions for him. When the committee is finished its work he'll be excused. If there's time left we will be moving on to other agenda items.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Excellent. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Giorno, please.

11:05 a.m.

Guy Giorno Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Merci beaucoup, monsieur le président.

I want to begin by congratulating you on your re-election last month, and by congratulating Mrs. Davidson and Mr. Siksay on their respective elections as vice-chairs. I'd also like to thank the committee for inviting me here today and for accommodating my request to appear at the earliest possible opportunity.

As you and I just discussed, Chairman--I'll share this with the committee members--we met 30 years ago during the 1980 federal election campaign at an all-candidates debate in the riding of Etobicoke Centre, sponsored by my high school, Michael Power. The chair was present as an alumnus candidate. He was running in the neighbouring riding of Mississauga South. I was working my 14-year-old tail off for a candidate named Joe Cruden.

On election night, despite the majority victory for my then party, I was sorely disappointed that both Joe and the chair had lost very close races. But I guess history shows that my support was pretty irrelevant or insignificant, because by the time the chairman had started to rack up his six consecutive victories I had already moved on to the other party. I don't think either of us would have imagined 30 years ago that we'd be meeting again, each of us in our respective roles.

Nonetheless, I am happy to be here today. I'm very pleased and look forward to responding to questions of committee members, particularly those related to my responsibility.

Committee members will appreciate that as an unelected government employee hired under section 128 of the Public Service Employment Act, it's not my place to speak for the entire government. As I often repeat--and some of the committee members will have heard me say this--though I bear the title of the Prime Minister's chief of staff, I'm still merely part of the staff.

The supremacy of Parliament is ensured by the principle of ministerial responsibility, and that is the cornerstone of responsible government. The principle requires that those who exercise the constitutional authority of the crown must be part of Parliament and responsible to Parliament. It is ministers, not officials, who exercise constitutional authority; then it's ministers, not officials, who are responsible to Parliament.

When a government employee appears before a committee to answer questions, as I do today, those answers do not alter the fact that it is ministers, not officials, who are constitutionally responsible for the exercise of authority, and who are responsible to Parliament. Expressed differently, the presence of an official like me and the answers I give can assist in the answerability of ministers to Parliament, but do not sever the responsibility of ministers to Parliament.

On January 23, 2006, Canadians voted for change. They sent a message to all politicians that it was time to turn over a new leaf and change the way business is done in the federal government forever.

The first legislative reform introduced by this government was the Federal Accountability Act, the most sweeping and most comprehensive anti-corruption law in Canadian history. It signalled the government's determination to clean up Ottawa after the sponsorship program. It changed the way federal political parties are financed, with no more big money, no more secret trust funds, and no more corporate and union donations. It cleaned up Ottawa's contracting, advertising, polling, and procurement practices, to ensure that taxpayers' money is well spent. It gave real iron-clad protection to whistle-blowers who come forward with allegations of wrongdoing. It ended the revolving door among ministers' offices, the bureaucracy, and hired-gun lobby firms, and it strengthened the access to information law by nearly doubling the number of entities that are subject to access to information.

As Prime Minister Harper said when the Federal Accountability Act was introduced, and I quote, “We are creating a new culture of accountability that will change the way business is done in Ottawa forever”. The objective was to replace the old culture of entitlement with good clean government, because that's what Canadians voted for on January 23, 2006.

A centrepiece of our anti-corruption law was strengthening access to information. The Honourable John Baird explained thusly on April 25, 2006: “Canadians deserve better access to government information. The Government of Canada belongs to the people and the government should not unnecessarily obstruct access to information”. Access to information is the public's right. Subject to the Access to Information Act, every Canadian citizen and every permanent resident “has a right to and shall, on request, be given access to any record under the control of a government institution”.

All ministers have delegated their responsibilities under the Access to Information Act to specifically named public servants, and it is those specifically named public servants, pursuant to delegations of authority, who are responsible for all decisions under the act. No political staff member has received a delegation of authority under the act, and therefore no political staff member has authority to make access to information decisions.

The new Treasury Board policy on access to information, which replaced the weaker policy of the previous government, provides as follows, and refers to a delegation order, in section 6.1.2: “Once an order is signed, the powers, duties or functions that have been delegated may only be exercised or performed by the head of the institution or by the named officer(s) or employee(s)”.

So to repeat, no political staff member has received a delegation of authority under the act, and therefore no political staff member has authority to make access to information decisions. Political staff members are subject to the instructions issued under the authority of the Prime Minister in a book called Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Secretaries of State. That book states,

in section 6.1, on page 37:

Exempt staff do not have the authority to give direction to public servants, but they can ask for information or transmit the minister's instructions, normally through the deputy minister.

Adherence to accountable government is a condition of continued employment for members of the political staff. In each department, it is public servants, not political staff members, who compile the records in response to an access request, who decide on and give notice of time extensions, who decide which mandatory and discretionary exemptions apply to any records, and who decide whether or not to invoke or apply a discretionary exemption.

I cannot speak for the practice of all departments, but in the Prime Minister's department—that is, the Privy Council Office—after an access decision is made and prior to release, the minister's office—that is, the PMO—is informed of the fact that an access decision has been made and there will be release. The legitimate purposes of this advance notice, which in our case I understand usually occurs approximately four days prior to release, include: to brief our minister on the content, to prepare to respond to questions in question period or from the news media, and to explain the content to anyone who might ask.

The purposes of this advance notice do not include, and must not include: to alter the decision, to vet the content, or to delay, deny, or withhold access. However, this advance notice is entirely consistent with the constitutional responsibility of each minister for the operation of his or her department. An advance notice does not alter the fact that decisions about release, time extensions, and invoking exemptions are made by non-partisan public servants pursuant to delegations of authority.

I'll simply close by pointing out that staff training has covered these points. It covered these points prior to my arrival. After my arrival in 2008, Accountable Government, which covers these points, has been reissued. More recently, I've taken specific steps to reinforce these rules, including the rule that the Access to Information Act must be upheld and the rule that it's improper for a political staff member to instruct public servants in the exercise of their authority. Those rules were confirmed and re-communicated as recently as this year. They've been reissued and re-communicated, so there can be no possibility of confusion.

Chairman, I thank you and members of the committee for your indulgence. I now look forward to answering any questions that members may have.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Just for clarification, in the document referred to, the Prime Minister's code of conduct for ministers, ministers of state, public office holders, who is the person responsible for determining whether or not there is a breach?

11:15 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

I'm referring to the document Accountable Government, Chairman. It's issued by the Privy Council Office under the authority of the Prime Minister. Questions about interpretation and application are usually answered by the Privy Council Office. In the case of ministers, though, the Prime Minister is ultimately responsible for ensuring that a minister has or has not complied with it. In the case of members of the political staff, it would be each individual minister who is responsible for ensuring that his or her employees comply with it, or for dealing with any cases of non-compliance.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you for the clarification.

We're going to go right to questions. Mr. Valeriote, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Giorno, thank you very much for coming before the committee today.

Coincidentally, you're probably aware that there was just a press conference by the interim information commissioner, Suzanne Legault. Are you aware of that press conference?

11:15 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

I'm aware that it took place. I'm not aware of the content of her report.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Okay. Well, I'm somewhat surprised that on the tail of that report and on the tail of that conference, where it was nothing short of a scathing indictment of this government's compliance with the Access to Information Act, you would come in here and say that the record of your party should be met with approval of some sort.

She reviewed 24 different ministries, and a majority of them failed. If you look at the record, indeed there are some that she marked with an “F”. Environment Canada and Foreign Affairs and International Trade were off the chart and given a red alert. She said the delays are tantamount to censorship.

You said in your opening remarks that, really, there's no interference by ministers, none whatsoever, that the decision, really, is by the access to information officer. Yet on page 52 of her report, under Natural Resources of Canada, she says:

The combination of staffing instability, a diffuse delegation of authority and senior officials being inappropriately involved in approvals resulted in an unacceptable level of access to information compliance at NRCan in 2008 and 2009. The deemed refusal rate doubled from 2007 to 2008.

That indictment is endemic in a number of other institutions, a number of the other ministries she reported on. We need to know, by what authority do these ministers interfere? You said yourself, it's the ministers and not the staff who are responsible. By what authority do they interfere? Is it convention or legislation? I can't find the exceptions in the Access to Information Act that would, by my estimation, allow this kind of interference.

11:15 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

Thank you, Chairman and members of the committee.

The position of the government is clear. The government expects that the act will be upheld and that there will be full compliance. The act requires that decisions about access be communicated in a timely fashion, and if not, there is a process under the act for time extensions. Then there's a process for right of appeal, as you know, to the information commissioner. So it's the government's expectation that there will be full compliance with the act.

Now, the member's question relates to delegations, and in his preamble he suggested that all those delegations might be to ATIP officers. That in fact is not the case. Each minister has issued a different delegation. The names of the employees to whom functions have been delegated are in the delegation orders. Every department puts those delegation orders on its website.

The member will notice that different departments have different delegations. Some delegations are ATIP coordinators, some are delegated to directors general, and in some departments the minister has delegated some functions under the act to some levels of employees and some to others. So I can't comment on the range of delegations across the system--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Giorno, let me ask this, then. When a request comes in, are certain requests other than the normal requests flagged in some way and sent to PCO or the PMO?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

I can only speak for the Prime Minister's department. In the Prime Minister's department—Privy Council Office—there is no amber-lighting or red-flagging—whatever you want to call it—system. There was one, and it was well documented, under the previous government. and that has been eliminated.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Okay. If they're looking at a request and are making a decision as to what will be released and what won't be released, can you talk to us about the criteria or parameters, whether written or unwritten, within which a decision is made to partially or completely prohibit the release of information?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

Chairman, I'm a bit confused by the question. The criteria are in the act. Those who exercise the delegated authority are to comply with the act and to uphold the act. Political staff members do not have authority to be making those decisions, to be interpreting and applying the act.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Then let's speak to Mr. Sparrow's conduct specifically, which gave rise to the motion by Mr. Easter to have you appear before the committee. By what authority did he act to prevent the release of that information?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

First of all, it's important, Chairman, to get the facts clear. The case to which the member refers was not a case involving an access to information request. It involved the ordinary intercourse between members of the news media and officials in the government. It was as a response to a reporter's request.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Giorno, can you tell me what the unit known as the issues management wing is?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

Do you mean in the Prime Minister's Office, or in ministers' offices generally?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

I mean in the Prime Minister's Office.

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

There are a number of functions in the Prime Minister's Office, as there have been in all prime ministers' offices. The issues management staff is responsible for preparing the Prime Minister for question period, for assisting the preparation of other ministers for question period. And because the House of Commons does not meet every day, but Canadians have a right to expect that questions are answered, and reporters have questions on a seven-day, 24-hour basis, even when the House is not sitting and there's no question period, they're helping to ensure the Prime Minister has answers and that ministers answer those questions.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Giorno, there is a report in The Hill Times, a story on March 1 by Jeff Davis, saying that the PMO issues management wing routinely gives verbal directions to slow down, delay, or stop ATIP altogether, or to transfer ATIP to the centre. Is this true?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Staff, Office of the Prime Minister

Guy Giorno

I will say the following. The rules are clear. My expectations are crystal clear. Political staff members are not to give direction to public servants, and the Access to Information Act is to be upheld.

Chairman, the member refers to an article in a newspaper quoting anonymous sources. I'm here today. I'm here appearing on the record. I'm here appearing before a televised audience in addition to committee members. I'm speaking in my own name. I stand by what I say. I will not indulge in anonymous gossip from sources who lack the certainty or the conviction to put their own names behind what they say. If the committee chooses to indulge that, the committee has the tools and the ability to chase it down, but I will not indulge anonymous gossip.