Evidence of meeting #7 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was institutions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Legault  Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Josée Villeneuve  Director, Systemic Issues, Policy and Parliamentary Relations, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order, please. This is the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 32(5), are as follows: the special report of the Interim Information Commissioner, entitled “Out of Time: Report Cards 2008-2009 and Systemic Issues Affecting Access to Information in Canada”. This was referred to the committee on Tuesday, April 13, 2010.

This morning our witnesses are from the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada: Suzanne Legault, Interim Information Commissioner; Andrea Neill, assistant commissioner for complaints resolution and compliance; and Josée Villeneuve, director of systemic issues, policy and parliamentary relations.

Thank you kindly for accepting our invitation to appear, Commissioner. I understand that you have some opening remarks. We will welcome your comments now.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, please.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Bezan.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

I have just a quick point of order based on Tuesday's meeting. There was one time that I tried to intervene on a point of order and you wouldn't recognize me. I believe that is a violation of my own rights and privileges here at the House. I'm not going to go into any great detail here, but under Standing Order 19 and on pages 632 and 633 in O'Brien and Bosc, your role as chair is to recognize points of order, and then to determine whether or not it's a point of order and rule on that point of order.

So I do ask that during this meeting, if there are going to be any points of order made by any member here, you respect the rights and privileges that we enjoy as members to be recognized, not be censored.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

In that meeting, we had another couple of points of order. We were in a questioning thing, and there was some debate going on. First of all, the chair has the discretion to wait until an appropriate time to hear a point of order, but I felt at the time that the problem we were facing, and that caused you to express your concern by calling for a point of order, actually resolved itself.

But I do understand. The role of the chair is to try to keep the good order in the meeting and to keep it going. I understand your point. I know that you don't do these frivolously, that you've done your homework, and I appreciate that. I will try to be a little more vigilant or clear on my actions.

We also were in a position where we were down to the last dregs of time and trying to be fair to all members to get through, and the chair, maybe in his haste to try to keep the questioning going, probably used his discretion not to your advantage.

But I understand your point and I appreciate it.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

It does go to the matter of how we function as a committee, Mr. Chair. If you're going to have order and decorum and you're going to do your job of directing debate, then you need to recognize points of order. Otherwise, it's just going to be anarchy. I just ask that you respect the right of all members here to raise points of order.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay. Anarchy is not a good thing. Let's not do that. Thank you very much for raising this.

Madam Legault, please.

11:05 a.m.

Suzanne Legault Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm very thankful for the opportunity to discuss with you in greater detail this year's special report, which provides an assessment of delays and examines the compliance of federal institutions with the Access to Information Act.

The purpose of the report cards is not to chastise institutions. This process is a tool at my disposal to affect greater compliance with the requirements of the act. It allows me to see compliance issues in their full context and to recommend meaningful solutions.

This year's report concludes that, although timeliness is the cornerstone of the act, chronic delays continue to be its Achilles heel. In 2008-09, only 57% of all requests received across the federal government were responded to within 30 days. Almost half of the complaints my office received in the same period dealt with delays, and three out of four of these complaints completed with a finding were resolved with merit.

Clearly, this is not what the legislators had envisioned when they established 30 days as the appropriate length of time to respond to a request. It is now imperative to tackle this issue head-on. This is why the Three-Year Plan I announced last summer focuses on assessing the root causes of delays so that solutions can be found. This year's report cards are the first step under this plan.

To obtain a sound, fact-based assessment, I expanded this year's sample from 10 to 24 institutions. These 24 institutions received 88% of all access requests. The assessment therefore provides a reliable picture of the overall situation. We rated the institutions globally: we assessed not only their statistical compliance with statutory timelines but also looked at practices and policies that impact on their performance. For individual institutions, I have made recommendations that are tailored to their unique situations and challenges. In addition, I am making recommendations to the Treasury Board Secretariat as the central agency responsible for the administration of the Act.

With the evidence collected during the process, we have confirmed the continued presence of system-wide issues that we identified last year. These include: lack of leadership; inappropriate use of time extensions; time-consuming consultations; insufficient resources; and deficiencies in records management.

We have also discovered that flawed or ill-enforced delegation orders within institutions may constitute another significant obstacle to timely access to information. A leading cause of delay is the extensive or inappropriate use of time extensions. In fact, institutions' use of time extensions account for 31% of complaints to my office.

I also want to emphasize that frequent and lengthy consultations between institutions represent a major problem. Federal institutions often consult other institutions before determining whether to exempt, exclude, or disclose information.

The time needed to complete the consultation then also depends on the efficiency and goodwill of the institution being consulted, yet only the consulting institution is responsible under the act for completing the request within the statutory timelines. For some institutions, such as Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the Department of Justice, and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, these mandatory consultations represent more than half of their workload.

Although a persistent issue, there is little known about the impact of these mandatory consultations because there are no statistics or no studies available to assess their impact. I am concerned that this lack of data fails to assign responsibility where it belongs. Despite previous warnings and recommendations, our findings show that little progress has been achieved to remedy delays across the system. Of the 24 institutions assessed this year, 13 performed below average or worse. These poor performers accounted for 27% of the requests made to the federal government in 2008-09, which represents roughly 9,000 requests.

In terms of deemed refusals, nine institutions present rates ranging from 20% to 60%. The average time to complete requests varies between 34 days for Citizenship and Immigration to 163 days for Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

However, there is a silver lining in this year's special report. Two institutions, Citizenship and Immigration and the Department of Justice, achieved an outstanding score due to senior management's ongoing support for a compliance-prone culture. Since last year's assessment, we have also witnessed some very impressive results at the Canada Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Public Works and Government Services.

These institutions have adopted a strategic approach to their access to information program and have therefore substantially improved service delivery to Canadians. This is proof that the system is not irrevocably broken.

We need to look more closely at the challenges that impede the performance of the institutions that did not perform well. I also believe that the Treasury Board Secretariat must establish strong standards to guide institutions and collect more detailed statistics to adequately monitor and measure institutional compliance. I think these measures are crucial to strengthen institutions' accountability pending legislative reform.

Mr. Chairman, I want to acknowledge the collaboration of the subject institutions and particularly from the access coordinators and their staff in this process.

Before closing, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to clarify my office's activities in relation to recent allegations of political interference.

As I announced on March 2, my office is conducting three priority investigations into complaints we received over specific allegations of political interference with requests made under the Access to Information Act. My objective is to conclude these investigations promptly.

In addition to these investigations, my office will undertake a systemic investigation into delays and time extensions, as announced in the three-year plan published last July. The scope and focus of this systemic investigation will be expanded to examine whether there is interference, political or otherwise, in the processing of access requests and whether this is a cause of delay or it unduly restricts disclosure under the act. My goal is to complete that investigation within 18 months.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We are now ready to answer your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you very much.

We'll move right to questions.

Ms. Foote, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you.

Welcome back as witnesses before this committee.

On page 10 of your report, you mention recent “high-profile complaints” concerning the interference of political staff in the access to information process. Are you aware of any other instances that have not yet been made public of where political staff have interfered in the ATIP process?

11:15 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I am not aware of any, Mr. Chairman. I only have these three complaints. I am going to do the systemic investigation and we'll look at whether there is any evidence.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

In reading your report, it's clear that in several instances.... I look at the natural resources department, where it says,“All but the most routine requests are held up in the minister's office”.

Now, on Tuesday, we had the PMO chief of staff, Mr. Giorno, before this committee, and he stated quite clearly that when ministers' offices receive information on ATIP requests it is for information purposes only. However, if you look at the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, it clearly states, “All records on topics of great public interest had to be approved by the president...”. But Giorno said it was for information purposes only, so what's your understanding of the situation?

11:15 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

The reason I mentioned the delegation of authority in the special report this year is that there were these few instances where we received testimony of such occurrences as part of our research in doing the report cards. At this stage, I do not have any documentary evidence, aside from the testimonial evidence we gathered through the special report, but I was sufficiently concerned such that it's going to be part of the systemic investigation.

As a matter of information, I can tell you that as far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned, during the process of the report cards I had personal conversations with the head of that agency, and that practice has stopped. The delegation order has already changed as part of the report cards exercise.

With respect to Natural Resources Canada, we have to meet with them and look into their processes in detail. As you can see from the result of Natural Resources Canada's report cards, there is a lot of improvement that needs to be done in that department.

We'll be working closely with all of the departments that received failing grades.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Could you elaborate on what you meant in your press release that the report reveals a new and very significant obstacle to timely access to information? You noted “the flawed or ill-enforced delegation of authority for access-to-information decisions within institutions”.

Based on your review, can you tell me to what extent the PMO and ministers' offices and/or political staff are implicated in this?

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

The head of the agency, the minister, is responsible for access to information, and that's delegated through the institution. With this process of report cards this year, we found that the delegation authority documents within each institution vary significantly.

In some institutions, there is full delegation of authority to the access to information coordinator. In some institutions, there are very widespread delegations of authority, so a lot of people in an institution can sign off. In other institutions, there is a very strong vertical line of approval processes all the way up, sometimes to the minister's office. That's the way they are structured. There is nothing in the legislation that says it has to be done one way or another.

The Treasury Board Secretariat has just finalized best practices for delegations of authority, so we'll see whether these get implemented.

In some institutions, such as Natural Resources Canada, we could see that it adds to the delays. In other institutions, like Public Safety, they are telling us that it's not adding to the delays, but we don't know yet.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

But did you find that in fact in instances like those in CIDA or Natural Resources approvals were done at the minister's office instead of by the person to whom this was delegated, whether it was senior management or the ATIP officer?

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

In these two institutions, it would go all the way up.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

And the approvals would be done in the minister's office?

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Yes, we were told that it was for information.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

So they were being held up in the minister's office, but it was just for information purposes. We were told by Mr. Giorno on Tuesday that in fact they would go for maybe three or four days in the minister's office, but it would appear from your report that this wasn't the case.

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Yes, but I do not have a clear diagnostic of the time delay that's resulting, and that's why we need to add it to the systemic investigation. We're going to need to really look in detail into the processing of the files.

At this point in time, I don't have a clear diagnostic because I don't have all the data in terms of additional delays that are caused by this. Obviously the report card indicated that these institutions take a very long time. Natural Resources Canada and CIDA have a very long average completion time and we think that this is an indication of the reason why.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Let me go back. I just want to make sure that I heard correctly. You did say for approval at the ministers' offices.

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

No. Josée Villeneuve, who is here, just corrected me. She says that it's going there for information.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Okay. In your report, you note that your process “uncovered oral evidence of delegation orders with multiple layers of review and approval which, in some instances, resulted in additional and unwarranted delays”.

Can you explain where those delays came from? Did the delegation orders come from the PMO, from the minister's office, or from political staff?

11:20 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

First of all, it's just within each institution, and we do know that within some of them, like Natural Resources Canada, Health Canada, and CIDA, it does add additional delays.