Evidence of meeting #53 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colin McKay  Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Order, please. It's 3:30, so we'll start the meeting.

As per the agenda, we are continuing with our study on privacy and social media. We have with us today Colin McKay from Google.

We'll proceed in the usual manner and start with a 10- or 15-minute presentation. As the only witness, you can have a bit more time. That's no problem.

Then we'll move on to questions and answers for an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, depending on the questions. If there are still questions after that, we can carry on with the meeting. I'm at the committee's service. We'll see how things go.

Without further ado, I'll hand the floor over to Mr. McKay.

3:30 p.m.

Colin McKay Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Merci. Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the committee.

My name is Colin McKay. I'm a policy manager working for Google Canada. Thank you for inviting me today and for giving me an opportunity to talk a bit about Google, and in particular, Google's policies on privacy protection and user control of personal data.

Canada is important to Google. We have offices in Kitchener–Waterloo, Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa. Our engineering offices in Montreal and Kitchener–Waterloo are growing particularly quickly. These offices are developing products that are being used by hundreds of millions of people every day worldwide. Particularly relevant to today's meeting, our Montreal office works on products that make your online experience as secure as possible, and for users around the world.

Google Canada has also been working to help small business owners across the country use the Internet effectively to grow and flourish. To recognize their success, we created the Google eTown awards, which are designed to showcase communities that are leading the way by using online tools and services.

We looked at countless cities and towns across Canada and found that some municipalities—Moncton, New Brunswick; Dorval, Quebec; Parry Sound, Ontario; Canmore, Alberta; and Duncan, B.C.—stood out from the crowd. They exhibited strong engagement and potential for growth within the digital economy.

Google is proud to help Canadians not only make the best use of the Internet, but also to help them do it safely and securely.

Privacy and security matter to us, and we know how important they are to users. It's what our users expect from us and it's what we expect from ourselves.

That's why we at Google are committed to the highest security and privacy standards. We've backed up our commitment with real dollars and people. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on security, and employ world-renowned experts in data security, who work around the clock to keep your and my information safe. We provide a whole suite of security and privacy tools so that individual Canadians can take control of their data management in a simple and straightforward way. With a few clicks of the mouse, users can remove all of their web history from Google's records, and at the same time, if they choose, prevent Google from recording their web history in the future.

We also provide Canadians with tools to secure their information while using the web. Two-step verification for Google accounts provides each user with extra protection against unauthorized access to their information. Our Chrome browser, which is increasingly popular among users around the world, includes something called the “incognito mode”, which allows a user to browse the Internet in what we can call “stealth mode”. Any pages opened or files downloaded aren't recorded in Chrome's browsing or download history. This is especially useful for users who regularly access the web on public computers at libraries or cafés, which are renowned for being large security holes. They're also useful if you're planning a surprise party and you just don't want your family members to stumble across something that you would rather keep a secret till a future date.

We strongly believe in data-driven innovation at Google. It's the kind of innovation that leads to things like crisis maps, developed on the fly, that help forecast the impact of hurricanes like Hurricane Sandy, or the creation of more pedestrian, yet extremely useful services that help you plan your vacation more quickly and more cheaply. We are constantly improving our products and creating new ones using a variety of data sources. Much of this data is pulled from other sources, but some of it is provided by users.

Data-driven innovation at Google also means developing and improving our security mechanisms and processes, meaning we use data to protect our users and the web at large.

When you get right down to it, I think we can all recognize that while providing user control is important, without strong security to keep data safe, it's all for naught. So before I discuss how we enable users to control their data, I'd like to start with a few examples of how we keep that data safe.

All 425 million active Gmail users, and the people in contact with them, receive extensive protection against spam, phishing, and malware every day.

I suspect there are some Gmail users in the room right now. I'd just prompt you to think about the last time you actually saw a spam message in your Gmail inbox, as opposed to any of the other services I'm sure you'd choose or are forced to use.

We have built-in encryption to protect messages from snooping by others, such as when you use your laptop at a coffee shop. Session-wide secure socket layer encryption is the default not only when you're signed into Gmail, but also Google Search, Google Docs, and many other of our services. We provide end-to-end security for your communication when you're using our services online.

Our ability to analyze search logs, which are aggregated sets of data, helps us identify and reduce vast amounts of web spam. This data has also helped lead to the creation of what we now consider indispensable search features like autocomplete, Google Instant, and spelling correction.

If you just pause for a few minutes and try to remember what your search experience was like in 2006, 2004, or—forbid—1999, you'll remember it was a much more difficult process trying to iterate how you misspelled words to get an accurate answer. Nowadays Google Search just delivers something instantaneously, based on analysis of these logs and past behaviour.

The analysis of aggregate data has also helped us create Google's Safe Browsing technology. Every day, engineers at Google examine billions of URLs, looking for sites that are dangerous for anyone using the Internet. This can include malware sites that contain malicious code intended to force-install keyloggers on your computer and other crimeware and phishing sites that masquerade as legitimate sites, seeking to trick users into typing in their user name and password, for example, something I think we are all familiar with, a site pretending to be your bank.

Because we want to help protect all Internet users and not just those using Google services, we make this security data available to anyone. Apple uses this data to protect users of their Safari browser, as does Firefox for its users.

We know the technology can be complicated. In addition to ensuring the safety of user information, we strive to create user-focused controls and experiences that make it easy to make informed choices about what and how to share your information with us and with others.

Google Dashboard is a tool that can help answer the question: what does Google know about me? Dashboard shows each user the information stored in their Google account. From one central location, you can easily change the settings for any Google services you may use, such as Blogger, Calendar, Docs, Gmail, Google+, and more.

Another great example of user-focused controls is Google+. Through Google+, which is our social network, you have full control over who gets access to different aspects of your presence online.

We all know that the difference between family, friends, acquaintances, and strangers is crucial, especially on a social network. Google+ circles mimic the way we think about sharing information offline to help manage our friends and contacts while online. I could put friends in one circle, family members in another, and a boss or a nosy neighbour in a circle all by themselves. I can then share relevant content, like Google+ posts, YouTube videos, or local listings with the circles I choose.

We've even built some extra protections for youth that encourage safe online behaviour. Posting something for everyone to see on a social network is an especially big deal for young people, so when teens try to share outside their circles we put in an extra confirmation step that encourages them to think before they post. We have also built default protections that block strangers from directly contacting or even saying hello to teens without a teen's express permission.

Another great example of user control is a Google service that l'm sure most members of this committee have used. In fact, most Canadians have used it: Google Maps. The most basic functionality in our mapping service lets you look at a map of your neighbourhood, your city, your region, or any region on earth, wherever you choose to look, but Google can also provide turn-by-turn, real-time directions with the GPS navigation mode in maps. We can help users find places of interest, like restaurants, gas stations, and automatic teller machines.

We could tell a user how long it will take to get to a destination, a particularly useful feature for anyone with a difficult daily commute. In fact, Google can help users bypass a particularly tough commute by looking at aggregated and anonymized historic and current traffic data to find a quicker route home. We can even give users bicycle-specific directions based on data about bike lanes, paths, streets, and even elevation.

I have to admit that, despite our best efforts, users sometimes decide they want to stop using Google and want to take their data with them. We've developed Google Takeout just for this purpose. Takeout makes it extremely easy for users to export the data from many of our most popular services—and we're adding more every month.

We make it easy for users to leave and choose another service, which keeps us honest. Our users are safe and secure with us, but they also don't have to feel locked in.

In conclusion, I've tried to provide the committee today with an overview of Google's privacy and security policies and how they are implemented in practice in our products.

As part of my job, I meet regularly with privacy commissioners to hear their concerns and to work together to develop solutions to any issues that might arise in those conversations.

Google has worked hard to build a positive and productive relationship with Canada's privacy commissioners, both at the federal and provincial levels. This collaborative approach has worked well, by serving as a forum to hear the privacy community's concerns and to help us explain how our business helps Canadians on a daily basis.

Thank you for your time this afternoon. I would be pleased to answer any questions you might have.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go right into questions and answers.

Mr. Angus, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, monsieur le président.

Thank you, Mr. McKay, for coming. I'm really pleased that Google is participating in this study. The overall frame of the discussion that we're having here is that we see the incredible potential for new media: the innovation, how it's transformative, democracy, innovation arts, everything. That being said, the risks, if data is breached, are also enormous. We're playing in a whole different game and you are the biggest player on the field. So what Google does has a huge impact.

I would like to say at the beginning that I was interested in your comments on Gmail. I've never seen spam on Gmail. I've left other services and I've even seen our extraordinarily good House of Commons spam has gotten through on our private servers in a way that I've never seen it on Gmail. So I was impressed with that.

I also want to compliment you on Google+. I think the idea of the separate circles is huge. I know many young people in my riding befriend me as their MP, and sometimes I want to check to see who they are, and I'm seeing all kinds of high school conversations that I really don't believe I should be seeing, but it's out there. If they had a Google+ system perhaps....

Again, it might be a case of Beta versus the VHS right now in terms of new media. So I encourage you...but you don't have the market share.

I guess I'd like to start by asking you about some of the breaches that we've seen, because when the breaches happen they're enormous. The FTC levied a $22.5-million fine for the breaches on Safari, in getting around the Apple cookies.

What was that about? And what have you done to address it?

3:45 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

I will first start by thanking you for your comments about Google+ and Gmail and for recognizing the connection between privacy and security. It's a point that I stated quite repeatedly in my comments, but I think it's an important one.

Speaking specifically to Safari, there are two separate issues between the FTC's judgment on Safari and then, separately, the technical issue around the cookies. We made a mistake and we've corrected it and we've moved on from that. The mistake was made in the effort of providing services to our users that they had indicated they wanted.

There's a technical explanation about what happened with the cookies, which I would be happy to explain in a little more detail. I just don't think this is the place to do it.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I wouldn't understand it anyway.

3:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Calkins might, in his line of questions.

3:45 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

What I would underline is that in this case it was a mistake, and it was made with the best intentions. We recognized that it could be misinterpreted. We've corrected those mistakes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I guess there's the question of mistakes, when on July 27, with the U.K., there was the issue in terms of the amount of 600 gigabytes of data that had just been picked up in the wireless Street View. I mean, Street View went through...and information off wireless networks, that's....

For an outsider, it showed us the incredible ease it takes for an organization as powerful as Google to just pick up whatever kind of information it wants. So we have to trust on your “do no harm” principle, but mistakes like that could have an enormous impact. That's people's banking data, privacy data, and to see that it was just picked up so easily, and then that it wasn't erased....

What steps do you have in place to assure the public that you're not Big Brother?

3:45 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

I would say we're certainly not Big Brother. We have the users' interests in mind. We're providing security controls for them that allow them to control their information. That analogy, I think, would be reversed in that we're providing them services that ideally provide them with very secure communication products.

I'm in a difficult position when it comes to WiFi. When I left my previous employer, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, I was asked to not deal with any ongoing files, and WiFi was the one file. I'm afraid that I'd have to get back to you about speaking to particulars about WiFi. I don't mean to be evasive, it's just the one file.

What I can say to you, though, is it's not in our best interest to blindly look for information. We're looking to improve services and provide products for users. That's our main goal. That's reacting to the two examples you've brought up. That's why we've made incredible investments in the privacy and security teams within the company, to make sure we have internal processes in place to avoid those sorts of problems in the future.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Well, that's excellent. I won't put you on the spot there. Perhaps you could have someone from Google—

3:45 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

On this issue of the 600 gigabytes of data, I mean, that's a big question mark out there, and it's certainly something we've pondered. If we could get an explanation, that would be helpful.

I'm interested in this as well. Going back to the European Union, on March 1, they were saying you're not in compliance with European Union law on privacy. I'd just like to look at it, not so much with the specifics of the EU, but on the larger philosophical question we've been wrestling with. We want to encourage innovation. We know the Internet is an international tool. We know that for you to have a business model that works, you have to be able to run a platform all around the world.

In terms of compliance with privacy laws, we have our privacy laws in Canada, which we're very proud of. The United States has a different standard. The European Union has a different standard. How does Google find a way to maintain a service that not only works all over the world, but also is in compliance? Are you that far apart from the EU standard, or do you need to rethink your business model?

3:45 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

We believe we're in compliance with European law. We've also made investments in staff around the world—people like me—to make sure we're aware of where data protection and privacy law is moving on a country-by-country basis so that we continue to be in compliance around the world. That's the effort we're making so that we can meet the expectations of our users in every country.

What I would say about legislation in Canada is that we see Canada as having a particularly interesting and useful privacy framework. It allows us to have conversations with the Privacy Commissioner about upcoming products and services so that we can have an open dialogue and record their impressions about what we plan to do and what we plan to launch in the market, and try to reflect that in what we eventually provide to Canadians.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Just quickly, I have a question on the issue of Google Takeout. We've talked a lot about the right to be forgotten, the whole “do not track”, that if a citizen wants to pull out they should be able to pull out. We haven't seen any real mechanisms of how possible that is.

You're telling us that you have a system in place. Can you explain that to us?

3:50 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

It's just that: it's a system. If a Google user decides they want to withdraw from all our services and they want to take the information they've shared with us, we're building a mechanism so that product by product, with one simple button, they can not only pull that information out of our systems, they can send us a signal they want that deleted. We'll provide it to them in a format that they can then use in an alternative system. That doesn't necessarily mean service to service, but it means we won't give them some unintelligible electronic file that they can't analyze.

The goal really is to keep us honest and to provide our users with a tool that allows them to make that clear decision about whether or not we're providing value and usefulness to them on a daily basis.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, your time is up.

It is now Mr. Calkins' turn.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Thanks, Mr. McKay, for being here.

I might have a little bit of insight on some of the more technical aspects, but I don't think we need the conversation to go there.

I have some questions for you straight up front. You talked about Google Chrome and you talked about how it has that incognito mode. Then immediately you proceeded to talk about analyzing search logs.

When you're talking about Google Chrome, I mean, I'm going to make a fairly broad assumption here. Google's corporate worth comes from its data. Your most strategic asset is your data. That's mostly user data, user trends. It's what makes you marketable.

Now, you're selling it to me today, at committee, and I believe you. I believe strategically that it's in Google's best interest to provide the best service possible for its customers. But I'm not your only customer. I'm a user of the Google product. Your customers would be any other marketing agency that might want to have access to what my preferences might be, what my trends might be, what my shopping interests might be. That's based on my navigation and browsing history.

So when you talk about Google Chrome not having anything tracked or preventing history from being loaded, you're simply talking about on the local machine. You'll still know where I've been, because that will be tracked elsewhere. Is that not true?

3:50 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

Let me start off by saying, to one point in your question, that we don't sell data. We don't sell data to third parties.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Okay. Fair enough.

It's not selling data, but you would sell information, or you would give broad marketing indications to people, right?

3:50 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

We provide advertising services based on some of the data, but let me make the distinction—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

But it's user-specific advertising, right?

I mean, it's evolved, and I know it's evolved, because I get ads on my browser that are specific to, you know....

I'm a hunter, and I go to hunting sites and fishing sites, so I get stuff from Bass Pro. I get all kinds of stuff all the time. That's not a surprise. I know how it works. That's fine. I appreciate it. This isn't meant as a criticism, and I'm not going on attack mode here.

I am concerned simply about the privacy aspect of it. I've been a database administrator. I've looked after millions of dollars' worth of financial transactions. It's been my responsibility to look after data. I'm pretty sure about what I'm talking about. But I've never done it in a social media context. Everything I've done has been private, financial transactions and whatever the case might be in a corporate setting. I understand what you're doing here.

My issue is that I've got constituents who are also users of your services who would have legitimate concerns about their privacy. If you want to talk about the technical aspect of cookies and how those things are tracking.... I know what a cookie is; I know what a secure socket layer is; I know what SSL technology is. I know these things.

So when we're talking about local versus centralized, you would be gathering the data on me as a user. Just because you're not tracking a cookie on my machine, or putting a cookie or a log history in, you would be able to know if I logged into any of my Google accounts. If I were logged into Gmail or if I were logged into anything, you would be able to record that browsing history, not maybe to the infinitesimal point where that data is being stored with my name associated to it in your database. That's where the value comes from your data collection, is it not?

3:50 p.m.

Policy Manager, Google Canada, Google Inc.

Colin McKay

Let me make three separate distinctions.

To answer your last question, if you're in incognito mode, you're completely anonymous to us. You're using the service in, to use the vernacular, the dumbest format possible. It does not provide tracking or customization; it provides you with a very clear browsing history that is not recorded.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Locally.