Evidence of meeting #7 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
All right.
Do you believe that programming, proprietary information, the planning of shows, and journalistic integrity should be protected?
10:10 a.m.
NDP
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
I believe it can be. Do I believe it is in this case? No.
10:10 a.m.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
My question is for Mr. Bernstein.
Do you think the Information Commissioner would have sufficient expertise to determine whether the documents in question could harm the CBC in front of its competitor? Do you think the CBC would have the best idea of which documents could cause it harm?
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
I think if the documents go to the Information Commissioner, and the CBC has the ability to explain that information beforehand, I don't see why the Information Commissioner can't make a proper decision.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
There have been a couple of statements made by members that I seek to correct. To begin with, the current state of the court process, just for witnesses and members, is that the CBC and the Information Commissioner went to court, and Justice Boivin ruled in favour of the Information Commissioner. The CBC has since appealed that decision, and the appeal will be heard on October 18.
We have already gone to court and funded both sides of this case. Should we continue to throw millions of dollars into a dispute between a government agency and an arm of government, or should the CBC be complying and allowing the Information Commissioner to determine what is subject to section to 68.1 and what is not? That's the question. That's where things are. The CBC has gone to court and lost on this. I think this is necessary to understand.
Moreover, there have been a number of statements to the effect that private broadcasters aren't subject to reviewing profit and loss, financial data. That's absolutely false. Welcome to Canada, where we have the CRTC, where private broadcasters do, in fact, make submissions. In today's vertically integrated world, Quebecor is much more than just a competitor; they're also a contributor to the CBC. Under the rules in Canadian broadcasting, they are contributing as a BDU, as a vertically integrated company here in Canada. The CRTC is taking money from Quebecor and giving it directly to the CBC. I think it's reasonable.
On the fee-for-carriage argument, the CBC has stated that they believe they should be receiving additional payment from the cable companies for their signal. The CRTC disagreed with them. The CBC will argue for additional money from the Local Programming Improvement Fund. I think this is more than simply an argument about their competitive position. Nor can it be reduced to an argument that they're defending taxpayers. They're actually a contributor.
Is that well understood, Mr. Bernstein, the way that the Broadcast Act is written in Canada and the way that broadcasters in this country receive government money? Frankly, all of them do. All of them do.
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely, and as you point out, the CRA does exist, and all corporations have to deal with it. As I said, whenever you take money from the government for a program, those programs are audited and those audits do go to the government. Plus, everyone helps pay for the CBC, and frankly the people at Quebecor, even through their taxes, are helping to pay for the CBC.
Having said that, besides competitive advantage, I don't know how much Quebecor resents that portion of their funding going to CBC and how much they believe their discrediting CBC might cut back on the amount of money they have to spend on CBC. We can't forget that.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
If you review the Broadcasting Act, though, nowhere does it say that the CBC is to have a dominant position in the market. They're going to receive their funding and so forth by fulfilling their mandate, not by competing. They are the only public broadcaster.
I'm always sensitive when I hear the term “competitor” being used. I suppose they may be competing, but at the same time they're not competing on an even playing field.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
No, they're not competing on an even playing field, but allow me to go back a step. There is nothing wrong with competition, and I don't want to give the impression that there is. Competition is a good thing. It makes the CBC better. It makes Quebecor better. It makes CTV and Global better.
I do expect businesses to compete with whatever tools they have, and I don't believe the answer is to say that Quebecor is trying to hurt CBC. I think the answer is to say that CBC should come clean and say this is what they're doing. If there are things that Quebecor is getting wrong, we'll pull the rug out from under what they're saying.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
You mentioned a bit about local news, and this is certainly something I'd like to see more information on. I do have a local affiliate of CBC. It's one of only two left in the entire country.
If we go back to the Dominion Network, where CBC had many affiliates, I think they had a dominant local position and it actually benefited their programming. They don't have that any more, do they?
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
No, they don't. CBC local news, in my opinion, is barely existing. At the best of times, they reach half a million viewers. When I was producing local news in Toronto, we had 325,000 viewers—just in Toronto.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Jean Crowder
Thank you, Mr. Bernstein.
I don't have any other people on the list for questions.
With the indulgence of the committee, I have a very brief question.
A number of people have commented on audited statements. My understanding is that CBC, as well as other corporations, are required to submit audited financial statements. In your view, Mr. Bernstein, are the audited statements sufficient for either a corporation or CBC in terms of giving the level of information you're looking for?
10:15 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Jean Crowder
So the fact that Quebecor and the CBC have audited financial statements does not satisfy, in your view.