Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

The difference is that we don't share our questions or our comments with the witnesses prior to asking them. In this instance, those documents have been shared with the witnesses.

I don't know if my colleagues want to jump in here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to go to Mr. Barrett first, and then Mr. Green on the point of order.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Chair, it was provided to the witnesses at the start of the committee meeting. It's an RCMP document. They provided it in the ATIP. If it makes other members of the committee uncomfortable that the RCMP is able to follow along—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Chair, it's not discomfort.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

—then I would just kindly ask for the clerk to collect the document from the witnesses and I'll continue with my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I just received this clarification. We cannot distribute those documents because, from what I understand, they are in one language, but if Mr. Barrett wants to distribute that to other members of the committee in that one language, then you can have that document in front of you if that's what the preference is on your side or on any other side.

Mr. Villemure says no.

Can we collect the documents from the witnesses, then, Mr. Barrett?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I do believe I'm—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You are.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If the Liberals don't want the RCMP to see the decision tree—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm so sorry, Chair, but I can't allow those kinds of statements.

I raised a point of procedure. It is—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

No. I have the floor.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay, just hang on—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If the Liberals do not want the witnesses to have the documents, then I'll leave it to the chair to instruct the clerk to collect them, but I'd like to finish my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to instruct the clerk to collect the documents.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead, Mr. Green, on the same point of order.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Respectfully, before you make decisions on the point of order, respecting the standing orders, I'm duly accorded the time.

Just so we're not setting a dangerous precedent in terms of what the expectations are, I would suggest that we each have, through our own offices, the ability to do research in preparation for committee. While it might be a courtesy that could be extended from time to time, I would just go on the record to state that I surely would have no expectations of any party, either government or opposition side, to provide me with their homework in advance. I'll just state that.

I'm a bit uncomfortable that we're going to start to put constraints on this. I'm saying this objectively, because it could happen to any one of us down the line, if we've done the work and we've gone through ATIPs and done all the stuff. As New Democrats, we don't necessarily have the resources to have big research policy bureaus, so we're doing it on our own with our incredible team, which is behind me here.

I just want to make sure that we're recognizing that this would be a courtesy and not some kind of precedent in this committee where we're going to start having to share our homework. I have no interest in that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate that, Mr. Green. I guess if we want to broaden that a little bit, the challenge, the risk, is that there are other articles. This is an ATIP, but there are Globe and Mail articles and CBC articles that people refer to all the time and that are used in the line of questioning.

Mr. Brock, I saw your hand up on the same point of order. Before I make a decision on where we're going to go....

I think I've already made the decision, but go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Very quickly, what my friend Mr. Barrett was referencing comes out of Watt's Manual of Criminal Jury Instructions, by David Watt. Any member can google that manual and find the tree that Mr. Barrett is referring to.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Duheme, Mr. Barrett is going to reference the document in question. I'm going to ask the clerk to collect the document, if that's okay.

Mr. Barrett, you can continue on your line of questioning. I think you'll give the commissioner and Mr. Pincince a pretty good indication of what's in the document, so I'm going to ask you to go ahead. I've stopped your time.

You have four minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry, Chair.

I don't need the witnesses to give their documents back. It's absolutely fine, but I did want to raise this as a point. When we are giving documents to witnesses, we should be very mindful as to how those documents are circulated to the rest of the committee.

In this instance, I'm fine if they can reference those documents at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. I thought the original intent of your interjection was not to have those documents in the hands of the witnesses.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

My original interjection, Chair, was that we can't see the documents that the witnesses and Mr. Barrett were referring to. Having listened to the comments of my colleagues, I'm okay with it this time, but I'm hoping that this does not become a common occurrence.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Thank you.

Keep the documents, Mr. Duheme and Mr. Pincince. Mr. Barrett is going to reference those documents.

Mr. Barrett, you have four minutes and 17 seconds. I'm starting your clock now. Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, I don't need the approval of Liberal members for the material that I'm going to ask questions on.

This one is very straightforward. It's a decision tree on paragraph 121(1)(c) of the Criminal Code, under “Frauds on the government”. It's by the RCMP. They've populated information on the document. It asks a series of questions with respect to Justin Trudeau's visit to the Aga Khan's island Bells Cay: “Was Mr. Trudeau a government official? Yes.” “Did Mr. Trudeau accept a benefit from the Aga Khan? Yes.” “Did the Aga Khan have dealings with the government? Yes.” Then it says, “Did Mr. Trudeau have the consent in writing of the head of the branch of government for whom he worked? Unknown.” At that point, it says, if yes, then the final verdict would be “not guilty”. It goes on to say, if no, “Did Mr. Trudeau know that what he accepted was a benefit from a person who had dealings with the government? Yes.” If yes, it says, “Final Verdict: Guilty of Fraud on the Government”.

Now, we know that in fact Mr. Trudeau did not have a consent in writing from the head of the branch of the government for which he worked, because that question was put to him in the House of Commons. In the House, it was asked, “Did the Prime Minister give himself permission to take that free holiday in 2016?”, to which Justin Trudeau replied, “Mr. Speaker, no.” He was asked again on April 26, 2020. Again the answer was no.

Conservatives put the question to the Prime Minister to answer the only open question on whether or not the RCMP should lay a charge of fraud on government against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the case of his illegal vacation to Bells Cay. It was certainly law-breaking in that it broke the Conflict of Interest Act. The question is, did it break paragraph 121(1)(c) of the Criminal Code?

Commissioner, did the RCMP call Mr. Trudeau and ask him the question?